Troubleshooting my First Cider Batch

[BobCider]

Hello all,

First time posting here and let me thank you all for being a great resource for someone just starting out in the world of cider making. Looking forward to using this resource more frequently/talking shop with everyone as I learn more and more through my own success/failures.


On Sunday my friends and I began my first batch of cider. We got 20+ gallons of unpasteurized must from an orchard nearby. Experimented a bit with yeasts, campden tablets, pectic enzyme. Unfortunately, due to my living situation, the temperature in the room is a relatively constant 72 degrees F.

While three of the batches appear to be fermenting fine (one with a particularly fart-like smell, others are sour-ish) the two carboys that we pitches pectic enzyme in have not began fermentation yet. We pitched the enzyme about 30 min before adding the yeast (one with EC 1118 and one with 71B-112. We also added crushed Campden tablets to these). They certainly cleared, but just no fermentation yet.

Am I just being impatient and does it take longer for the yeast to begin its work when pectic enzyme is introduced?

I do have yeast nutrient and am thinking about adding soon, but if this is normal I will wait it out as i would prefer not to add the nutrient. As of this writing we are about 87 hours after pitching the yeast. Picture is attached. The two "problem batches are the two on the left in the back row.

Any help/guidance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[dmtaylor]

We pitched the enzyme about 30 min before adding the yeast (one with EC 1118 and one with 71B-112. We also added crushed Campden tablets to these). They certainly cleared, but just no fermentation yet.

Am I just being impatient and does it take longer for the yeast to begin its work when pectic enzyme is introduced?

Campden hurts yeast. The Campden slowed it down. Be patient, it will start up in the next day or two.

You don't need nutrients.

 

[johnnyseko]

Are those 2 the only ones that got campden? How long did you wait after adding it did you pitch the yeast? I used pectic enzyme for the first time in my latest batch with 71B and it was bubbling away like crazy after 24hrs... I doubt it was the enzyme.

I'm still learning here as well. Welcome!

 

[BobCider]

Are those 2 the only ones that got campden? How long did you wait after adding it did you pitch the yeast? I used pectic enzyme for the first time in my latest batch with 71B and it was bubbling away like crazy after 24hrs... I doubt it was the enzyme.

I'm still learning here as well. Welcome!

The far right carboy in the back also used campden, as well as the three gallon carboy in the front left, but to a lesser degree. Both appear to be fine with fermentation so far.

We waited 24 hours after adding Campden and waited 30 min after adding pectic enzyme before pitching the yeast.

 

[Maylar]

Pectic enzyme has no effect on fermentation. I'm surprised it's taken that long at 72F. I would definitely add yeast nutrient at that temperature or you risk H2S (farts), even with those yeasts.

 

[bernardsmith]

To the best of my knowledge pectic enzyme does not affect fermentation. It's the other way around. In the presence of alcohol the enzyme is denatured and so does not work which is the reason that instructions tend to suggest that after adding the enzyme you wait 30 minutes - 12 hours before pitching the yeast.

How exactly are you determining whether the fermentation has begun or not? Are you looking for bubbles? That may or may not be helpful. The only valid way to know whether the yeast is fermenting the sugars is to measure the specific gravity. If it is dropping then the yeast is working. If it has not dropped since Sunday then it looks like there may be a problem.
Fart-like smells are caused by H2S (hydrogen sulfide) and hydrogen sulfide is produced when the yeast are stressed.
Last point. I see that those carboys have "handles". Those handles are designed to lift empty carboys and not carboys weighing as much as 45 lbs or more (1 gallon of water weighs 8 pounds so apple juice probably weighs 9.25 lbs a gallon, having about 1.25 lbs of fermentable sugars and a starting gravity of around 1.050 or thereabouts ). The pressure the rings can put on the neck of the carboy if you use them to lift a full fermenter is enough to break the vessel...

 

[BobCider]

Thanks everyone for the feedback so far. I will test the SG later today to determine if anything is actually happening. My thought re: no fermentation was based upon no visible indicators. If no real change I will probably add nutrient.

Also, I will definitely not use the handles for the full carboys.

Re: H2S and the fart smell, there is no discernible smell for these two carboys with the pectic enzyme added. The H2S smell is actually coming from the far right rear carboy which I used Belle Saison yeast. I purchased the yeast from a brew store who claimed that this particular strand “likes to struggle”. So I guess my next question is, based upon that information should I not be worried about the potential of yeast being stressed for the Belle Saison carboy?

Thanks again everyone! Really appreciate the feedback.

 

[terrenum]

What kind of yeasts are you using?
I have always used a bit of sulfate and enzymes waited overnight then racked and pitched the yeasts
Never had any problems
+1 on sulfur smells being due to stressed yeasts. If you wait long enough it will clear out. You want to wait a while anyway for the malolactic fermentation to do its magic.
Let us know if fermentation starts in the next day. Was your pitch rate enough? Fresh yeasts?

 

[BobCider]

From left to right back row: 71B-112; EC-1118; Belle Saison

Left to right front Row: Safcider Dry cider; K1-1116

Thought pitch rate was fine (5g packs in each). Regarding if the yeast was fresh, at this point I cant verify whether it was, but I purchased from a brew store with a great reputation and would hope that it was.

 

[johnnyseko]

The only other thing that comes to mind is - did you rehydrate the yeast according to the package before pitching? At this point I don't even know if that matters but you will lose a lot of yeast if you pitch the dry yeast directly to the cider. 3 1/2 days is a while. I'd check the SG as suggested.

 

[BobCider]

We did rehydrate the yeast. I’ll report back here and let everyone know re: SG.

 

[BobCider]

Following up from yesterday. Tested the SG on the two problem carboys. Has not moved at all from the initial reading. I'm not sure what this could be.

I bought new packs of yeast. Thinking I will add a little nutrient to see if it kick starts anything. If no response I will probably re-pitch the yeast.

Any other tips/pointers/reasons why the two carboys may have stalled would be greatly appreciated!

 

[thisissami]

Good luck! I'm on my first batch of cider now too. Dealing with a somewhat similar situation, except in my case - I started my cider at 10 C (50 F) instead of something warmer.

 

[BobCider]

Just reporting back if anyone was interested. I added nutrient to one (smaller 5 gallon carboy)....waited 24 hours and...nothing.

I then re-pitched hydrated yeast in each of the two problem carboys. No visual indicators and I tested SG again today with still no movement. No off smells or anything. Gave them a taste as well, still tastes like pressed juice.

Really unsure what the problem could be. Only difference between these two and the other three was the use of pectic enzyme. All of the other three have fermented to dryness by this point.

 

[dmtaylor]

How many Campden tablets did you use per gallon?

This is all really unusual.

 

[BobCider]

I dont have my notes with me at this time. But the amount of crushed campden tablets used were based upon the pH level and an associated chart in a cider book I have. pH was 3.6. I need to confirm with my notes, but I believe it was 2 tablets/gallon.

But again, this was the same amount pitched in another carboy that has now fermented to dryness. The only variable factors between the fermented carboy and the two problem ones are: 1) yeast (fermented carboy- Belle Saison; two non-fermented - EC-1118/71B); and 2.) Pectic Enzyme (none in fermented carboy, two non-fermented - pitched per instructions except introduced yeast only 30 minutes after pitching pectic enzyme).

 

[BobCider]

I guess the real question is...what do I do with 11 gallons of this must since it refuses to ferment.

 

[bernardsmith]

what's the gravity? But let me assume that it really has not fermented and there is some kind of problem. What you do is invert the process. Here's how -

I would get a killer strain of yeast - I say that because I am not sure how well the yeasts that might be involved play well with other yeasts. Champagne yeast is OK for this. Rehydrate the yeast and to it add a cup of lightly sugared water (should not really be above about 1.040. When you see that this is actively fermenting you take a cup (the same volume) of your stalled cider and add that to this starter. When (IF) you see that this is now actively fermenting you then take TWO cups (doubling the volume) of the stalled cider and add that to the starter... and you keep on repeating this until there is nothing left in the stalled carboy and everything has been added to the starter which should now all be actively fermenting. This can take all day..

I would use this method to restart a stalled fermentation after you have tried to restart it by whipping air into it and after increasing the temperature and if the ABV as it stands is below 9% (that's already a wine and not a cider.. but yer never knows) after adding some more nutrient (I prefer Wyeast wine or beer nutrient (they are identical, I think except for the packaging) but Fermaid O or K may be OK too.

 

[BobCider]

SG is 1.052. That was the initial reading and as of yesterday night.

Thanks for the tip!

 

[johnnyseko]

Any update on these? Curious if you ever got them to take off.

I'm dealing with an S-05 that is 4 days in with zero activity. My other batches (with different yeasts) that were pitched at the same time are all going along fine. I had to use campden for the first time in these batches but this is the only one that is giving me trouble. I pitched direct as instructed. Then hydrated and pitched another round yesterday.... If nothing happens soon maybe I will build a starter as indicated by bernardsmith.

 

[BobCider]

UPDATE:

Last post was on Dec 28. At that time there was still no activity on either of the problem/stalled carboys. Without doing anything new to either carboy I went away for New Years weekend. Upon my return on Jan 1 (and to my surprise) the 5 gallon carboy with EC-1118 had begun fermenting! Great surprise to come home to.

However, the 6 gallon carboy that I used 71B-1122 yeast was still stalled with no movement on the SG. Due to the fact that the EC-1118 carboy had a very delayed fermentation I decided to give it a bit more time, since it was a larger batch. I also whipped air into it to try and help it along.

Unfortunately, this did not work out well. With the additional time it began forming what I originally believed to be Acetobacter on the top layer. However after some additional reading I actually believe it was yeast film. (picture attached, although its not good).

I caught it very early and added campden tablets (now the second time) to hopefully eliminate the problem. After about 24-48 hours this worked to clear out the slight layer that was forming on the top.

At this point the must still had no off smells, which I was completely surprised by given the amount of time it has stood without fermentation. The SG was was OG.

I then attempted bernardsmith's suggestion to jump start the stalled batch. Did it exactly as he suggested using the same strain of yeast I was originally using (again 71B-1122, this would now be the 3rd time I pitched this yeast strain).

Hydrated yeast, added 1 cup of lightly sugared water (SG at around 1.350), when fermenting added a cup of stalled cider. Then when fermenting again (which it was!), doubling up the amount of stalled cider and wait until fermentation. Repeat until all the stalled cider was used.

The stalled cider took pretty easily and I was able to save about 5+ gallons of the 6 gallon carboy. It is now fermenting very well.

Thanks bernardsmith! This method was perfect and helped me save this batch. I would definitely recommend this method johnnyseko. But heed his instructions in trying other methods first such as raising the temperature or whipping air first.

I'll keep this thread updated with results, but my concern (question?) is because of all that was added/done to this cider (introducing campden two separate times, pectic enzyme, yeast nutrient, and pitching yeast three times) the amount of time it sat before fermentation (weeks), and the brief stint with potential film yeast, if this is going to produce off flavors.

Thanks again bernardsmith! and good luck johnnyseko. Let us know how it goes!

 

[MarkKF]

Any chance the juice has preservatives?

Any chance you yeast it dead?

I would make 48 oz. of juice from FAJC + water. Pitch yeast and agitate every 6-8 hours.

After a day or two you will know if you have live yeast. If you do just add it all.

 

[BobCider]

nope, no preservatives. Had apples pressed at an orchard for us.

 

[johnnyseko]

Glad to hear that 71-B batch finally got going! Very cool bernardsmiths suggestion worked for you. I've since put my S-05 on the stir plate in sweetened h20 in an effort to try the same method. No sign of life still. I think my packet of yeast might be dead on arrival. If still no activity by morning, I'll switch this out with S-04. I have four other gallon batches with a week head start at this point.

I have the same concerns about off flavors. Hopefully it won't make much difference after a good ferment and rack to secondary for a while.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm dealing with an S-05 that is 4 days in with zero activity. My other batches (with different yeasts) that were pitched at the same time are all going along fine. I had to use campden for the first time in these batches but this is the only one that is giving me trouble.

Beer yeast doesn't like Campden. It's not "used to it" like wine yeasts would be.

 

[Shimmy1]

When

I would make 48 oz. of juice from FAJC + water. Pitch yeast and agitate every 6-8 hours.

What is the best way to agitate? Pretty difficult to shake a 6 gallon carboy. (Yes, i know 5 of these are 3 gallon) Can you agitate with agitator you use with a cordless drill? We currently have 20 gallons that I pitched yesterday and it has started bubbling, but pretty slow.

 

[MarkKF]

The 48 oz. I put in a growler or gal. jug. Cap & shake the loosen the cap.

 

[johnnyseko]

I wound up pitching S-04 Sunday morning after zero activity from S-05 after a few days of waiting. Hard to believe that I had the same lack of life with the S-04 after 24hrs on the stir plate with a little nutrient sprinkled in as well. I've since determined both of these packets are dead. I ordered at separate times but maybe they froze in transit during shipping? Dead yeast is a new one for me.

As a last resort I pitched Safbrew S-33 into the same juice on the stir plate. Within hours there was plenty of foaming activity. It is now chugging along nicely after adding the starter to the gallon juice. Not sure what happened to my yeasts, the Safbrew came in the same shipment as the S-04.

Oh well, at least I can finally put this gallon with the others to run for the next few weeks or so.

 

[dmtaylor]

Wine yeast is cheaper, too.

 

[paneubert]

maybe they froze in transit during shipping? Dead yeast is a new one for me.

I believe you when you said it was dead, but just to deepen the mystery, you should know that dry yeast wont die from freezing. It is already dehydrated so much that there is no water to crystallize and puncture the yeast. Some folks store their dry yeast in the freezer. So dead it was, but not from freezing. Whooooooooooooo knows.

 

[johnnyseko]

Ah, I thought I had read somewhere that freezing would kill any yeasts. Really strange I got two dead packets of different strains but I guess it can happen. Both had expiration dates in 2020. I was really looking forward to the S-05 but had to get that last gallon going asap - it had been out on the counter for a week.