Tis the Saison!

[Philmac]

I thought the day would never come in ireland but it is too hot to brew beers using the ale yeast i usually do.
So i am thinking about switching to a saison for the summer.
Does anyone have any recipes/ advice re: saisons? They stay in the fermenter for longer than an ale?
I brew using all grain and aim to make about 25 litres.
Was thinking about doing this one-

https://beerandbrewing.com/the-classic-saison-recipe/

Thanks!

 

[catdaddy66]

I thought the day would never come in ireland but it is too hot to brew beers using the ale yeast i usually do.
So i am thinking about switching to a saison for the summer.
Does anyone have any recipes/ advice re: saisons? They stay in the fermenter for longer than an ale?
I brew using all grain and aim to make about 25 litres.
Was thinking about doing this one-

https://beerandbrewing.com/the-classic-saison-recipe/

Thanks!

That looks very good!

As far as yeast for a saison, I have only used two varieties... Belle Saison (dry) and WY3711. Both will chew thru the sugars and possibly the fermenter! I consistently get FG's below 1.005. And don't worry about temp control. These yeasts love it warm.

 

[lawer]

I love Drew Beechum Citra Saison (recipe here).

Complex but refreshing. Great for this hotness!

 

[secondbase]

I love saison! I like to keep my grain bills pretty simply. Mostly pils, maybe some wheat, maybe some munich, maybe some spelt, maybe some rye. Maybe a combo of those. As for yeast, 3724 gives me the best character but can be finnicky. I also really enjoy 3726 and it pairs really well with some of the new-school fruity hops in case you wanted to go that route.

 

[Hopsimus]

I've done saisons using wyeast 3724, 3711 and wlp590 (which I believe is the same strain as 3711).
I find 3724 gives more of the classic saison funkiness and generally doesn't go quite as low with the final gravity (which I prefer).
However, as secondbase mentions, it can be finicky at times. People report it stalling out around 1.030 and then taking a couple more weeks to finish.

 

[pinchegil]

If you have time and aren't afraid of high ferment temps 3724 makes a great beer, ferment it hot, 85+ and it will stall out at 1.03 for a while. I read an email from wyeast to avoid the stall pitch and ferment at 90. I did that and still had a week stall. the beer however was excellent, if you like the farmhouse funk

 

[TasunkaWitko]

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but this might be a good place to discuss dry yeast options for a saison.

Any thoughts on BE-134 from SafAle?

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/SafAle-BE-134_Rev2.pdf

 

[Hopsimus]

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but this might be a good place to discuss dry yeast options for a saison.

Any thoughts on BE-134 from SafAle?

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/SafAle-BE-134_Rev2.pdf

Haven't tried it myself.
There are only a few other threads on the site which even mention it. This thread here for example, and, I believe BE-134 is the one catdaddy66 is referring to above.
Seems like the character might fairly close to 3711. So, if you like 3711, BE-134 would probably be a good choice too.

 

[Philmac]

I'll be trying to get this brewed this weekend/ next. I have water in my fermenter just to see the temperature and it is sitting at 24 degrees so ale is out of the question!
Lawer- that recipe looks nice, i have citra as well which is a bonus How did it turn out in the end?

It's between that the citra saison, a dupont clone (https://beerandbrewing.com/belgian-saison-in-the-style-of-saison-dupont-recipe/) and that one at start of post.
I think i'll go with the WY3711 yeast.

As a ball park figure, how long does a saison need to ferment, i've been told it takes longer but i've also been told it takes less time (which would make sense to me as it is warmer...).

Thanks for the replies

 

[couchsending]

Try 3711 but don’t hold yourself to it, there are much better options IMHO. Yes it’s easy to work with and it doesn’t stall but it just isn’t as flavorful as some of the others. It’s actually better at slightly lower temps than the others.

3724 is the quintessential but can be finicky. Can you step mash? Using sugar can make the stall worse. Yeast nutrient helps as does minimizing head pressure (use foil instead of an airlock/blow off)

3726 will get you something similar but generally won’t stall. I believe Blaugies ferments their beers around 80f and I think they finish in something like 4 days.

3522 fermented at that temp can be interesting as well.

You can also blend 3711 and 3724 to get the characteristics of 3724 but the quick ferment and glycerol production of 3711. 80/20 or 90/10 in favor of DuPont.

 

[Philmac]

Couchsending- i've never tried step mashing, i usually lock it down and step away Does it get better results?
I will have a think about these yeasts- 3726 sounds like a good one. how temperature sensitive is it? I've heard mixed reports about those liquid yeasts and they're quite pricey- would you say they're spot on?
Edging towards the dupont recipe- if it's my first one may as well try a traditional one for the first go. Just back from a trip to france and i had a few saisons- never really been a beer i've seen around that much- enjoyed em so looking forward to getting one going.
Thanks!

 

[couchsending]

If you can get your hands on a copy of Farmhouse Ales by Phil Markowski I’d highly recommend it. So much awesome info in there on brewing Saisons. It’s such an awesome style and if I could only drink one style for the rest of my life it would be Saison.

If you have the ability to step mash I certainly would.

Liquid cultures are almost always superior in one way or another. I use some dry yeast but generally prefer liquid and there are soooo many more options.

Personally I think those Saison recipes from BYO kinda suck. Those FGs are way too high for a true Saison. They need to finish at or below 1.006. Pilsner/Wheat or Spelt and maybe some Munich if you want some color. Rye is a great addition too. All mine are a mix of Pilsner and one or two alternate grains (wheat, oats, spelt, or rye) and that’s it.

Saison DuPont is literally just Pilsner malt. They use an upward infusion mash starting at 113 and reaching 162 over like 1.5 hours I think (don’t have the book near me). If you could only do a single infusion mash i’d do it at 144 not 150 especially for 3724 yeast and that yeast needs to be fermented closer to 80 if not higher in order to really shine.

The key to great Saison is not only fermentation but cold conditioning and refermentation in the bottle (or keg if you must). For me a minimum of 3.0 volumes of Co2 is necessary, often higher. Just need to make sure you have the necessary bottles.

It’s a rabbit hole but once you start drinking them and explore all the style has to offer you will truely find some of the most amazing beers. Especially when you get into the mixed culture saisons. They can be the most complex yet simple beers on the planet. Refreshing and great with almost any food.

 

[couchsending]

Also check out some of the Kveik yeasts if you can’t control temps. Haven’t used any yet but have two different ones to try out this week.

 

[Philmac]

You're clearly an advocate
I don't mind spending the extra coin on liquid yeast if you're going to get a better beer.
Do you have a tried and tested recipe you would recommend to get an idea of saisons for a beginner?

 

[Philmac]

I will not be able to control the temperature too much- i have a brew belt but i am out of the house most of the day..

 

[Philmac]

Do saison yeast require temperatures of 29 to 35 °C (84 to 95 °F)?
That's very warm! will require extra heating.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Haven't tried it myself.
There are only a few other threads on the site which even mention it. This thread here for example, and, I believe BE-134 is the one catdaddy66 is referring to above.
Seems like the character might fairly close to 3711. So, if you like 3711, BE-134 would probably be a good choice too.

Thanks, Hopsimus - I appreciate the food for thought.

One last question: how important, in your mind, is it to get Belgian Pilsner; Belgian Wheat; Belgian Munich/Vienna/etc.?

 

[pinchegil]

Do saison yeast require temperatures of 29 to 35 °C (84 to 95 °F)?
That's very warm! will require extra heating.

Some do, some do not. My go to wy3724 (Dupont) likes it at 90, i pitch and ferment there. Others range from mid seventies to high eighties. WLP566 is a good first starter saison yeast very forgiving they say 78 max I have had it 82 to 83 with no problems

 

[couchsending]

No they definitely don’t require that at all.. your at 24c ambient now. The yeast will probably create enough heat on its own to get to at least 30c. You just might need to keep it there with some additional heating if fermentation slows down. But you might not. If you use 3726/Rustic you should probably be fine with just ambient temps as long as they’re constant.

If I was you I’d do something simple that lets the yeast shine. If you do use 3726 the most popular Blaugies beer is made with basically


70% Pils
30% raw unmalted spelt
- you could use malted or flaked
- if you can’t find spelt, Wheat is fine
Mash 144-148 for 90 if you can’t step
1.048 OG
1.002 FG
6% ABV
30-40 IBUs Styrian Goldings
- once for bittering, once for aroma
Ferment it at your ambient

I assume you’re fermenting in carboys? Can you crash? If not no big deal. Bottle in thick bottles to 3.0 volumes.

I prefer to keep Saisons under 6% personally, you can just drink more of them.

anything similar will do. Just like with most beers the recipe itself is not as critical as the process.

 

[couchsending]

Thanks, Hopsimus - I appreciate the food for thought.

One last question: how important, in your mind, is it to get Belgian Pilsner; Belgian Wheat; Belgian Munich/Vienna/etc.?

Not important

 

[bleme]

Give WY3522 Belgian Ardennes yeast a try too. It's technically not a saison yeast but ferments well at room temperature. It is very quick, drops bright, not finicky at all.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Not important

Thanks, couchsending. I think I'll be able to give this a try. As noted above, my current top choice for yeast is BE-134, but if there are any options for dry yeast, I'd be interested in hearing about them.

 

[Hopsimus]

Thanks, Hopsimus - I appreciate the food for thought.

One last question: how important, in your mind, is it to get Belgian Pilsner; Belgian Wheat; Belgian Munich/Vienna/etc.?

Personally I think it would only matter (maybe) if you were trying to clone a specific brew.
I used Rahr pilsner in my last saison. Came out quite nice.
Used a belgian pils in the previous two. They also came out nice.

I used the belgian pils simply because that is what was specified in the recipe I had, and my lhbs carries it at a decent price (slightly more than local pils, but not bad).

 

[TasunkaWitko]

It sounds as though the yeast, temperatures and the process are the more important things.

I want to brew a basic, no frills Saison that is recognizable and representative of the style without being overly-elaborate. I can get Belgian Pilsner pretty easily, but the Belgian wheat and Belgian Munich/Vienna seem to be more elusive; the only place that I found all of these had ridiculously high shipping. Based on this, I think I'll just get the Belgian Pilsner and go with German for the rest of the grain bill. I'm strongly considering BE-134 for the yeast, based on its description as well as it's apparently unique characteristics, but am open to other suggestions for dry yeast.

Thanks to all for the comments so far, and my apologies if I side-tracked the thread too much.

Ron