Thoughts on fermentis LA-01?

[Ali01]

I really don't care about the alcohol in beer, all I care about is the flavor, I like sweet, malty beers, so here's what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna make a wort with a maximum gravity of 1.025 then pitch LA-01
I'm going to sanitize everything with bleach, dishwasher and starsan for the final step

After fermentation is over, I'm going to bottle condition with simple sugars like table sugar, keeping the carbonation level below 2.5, then I'm going to pasteurize the beers in a big pot with the lid on in case any of the bottles want to explode

Do you think it's a good idea to try?

 

[Somesaymybeerisdrinkable]

Pasteurizing carbonated beer bottles sounds dangerous. I don't have any experience making low alcohol beer, so hopefully someone else can chime in.

 

[mac_1103]

I know that some people pasteurize carbonated cider. Maybe you could snoop around in the cider forums for methods.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Might be of interest...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...s-brewed-with-fermentis-safbrew-la-01.726945/

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Do you think it's a good idea to try?

If you have not seen it, a mix of people gave LA-01 a try: Fermentis Safbrew LA-01 Recipe Testing - Low Alcohol

Do you have access to LA-01? I have not seen any Low/NA yeasts packaged for homebrewers due to food safety concerns.

I brewed one batch with LA-01. It did not turn out the greatest, but I probably should have started off with a more simple recipe. I did not pasteurize, but I kegged that beer and kept it cold hoping that would be good enough.

Note that adjusting for pH is also another important step with NA beers. With most beers, fermentation will drop the pH down below the food safe level of 4.6. With NA beers, acid adjustments are needed to lower the pH below that level.

This site it a pretty good resource: Ultra Low Brewing - Alcohol Free and Ultra Low Beer Brewing Techniques

 

[DuncB]

Agree with @CascadesBrewer the ultra low brew website is good, they have a few YouTube videos of the different processes.
Getting balance when an important component of the quadrate ( yeast, malt,hops and alcohol) is greatly reduced is the challenge.
This came out well at 2% mashed hot and 23 litre batch using WLP 530.
Yeast from this was the starter for a tripel.

 

[Miraculix]

I think it won't carbonate as this yeast is not sugar selective but very alcohol intolerant as far as I understand this.

 

[DuncB]

From Fermentis:
SafBrew™ LA-01, is a Saccharomyces cerevisiae var. chevalieri that has been specifically selected for the production of low and/or non-alcoholic beverages (<0.5ABV). This yeast does not assimilate maltose and maltotriose but assimilates simple sugars (glucose, fructose and sucrose) and is characterized by a subtle aroma profile. Yeast with a medium sedimentation: forms no clumps but a powdery haze when resuspended in the beer.

I don't think it's intolerant of alcohol just lacks many enzyme pathways. Metschinkowa reukaufii is another yeast that can only ferment glucose.
Would be interesting to try the yeast for a brut IPA using amyloglucosidase enzyme to make simple sugars that it could then metabolise. Then you'd know it's alcohol tolerance.

 

[Miraculix]

From Fermentis:
SafBrew™ LA-01, is a Saccharomyces cerevisiae var. chevalieri that has been specifically selected for the production of low and/or non-alcoholic beverages (<0.5ABV). This yeast does not assimilate maltose and maltotriose but assimilates simple sugars (glucose, fructose and sucrose) and is characterized by a subtle aroma profile. Yeast with a medium sedimentation: forms no clumps but a powdery haze when resuspended in the beer.

I don't think it's intolerant of alcohol just lacks many enzyme pathways. Metschinkowa reukaufii is another yeast that can only ferment glucose.
Would be interesting to try the yeast for a brut IPA using amyloglucosidase enzyme to make simple sugars that it could then metabolise. Then you'd know it's alcohol tolerance.

It stops at about 0.5% alcohol in solution. There's still plenty of simple sugar available at this point so the only reason why it would stop seems to be the alcohol. At least from my point of view, I might be wrong of course.

 

[DuncB]

When I do my low alcohol using it I'll do a micro batch with some enzyme and see what happens.

 

[Ali01]

If you have not seen it, a mix of people gave LA-01 a try: Fermentis Safbrew LA-01 Recipe Testing - Low Alcohol

Do you have access to LA-01? I have not seen any Low/NA yeasts packaged for homebrewers due to food safety concerns.

I brewed one batch with LA-01. It did not turn out the greatest, but I probably should have started off with a more simple recipe. I did not pasteurize, but I kegged that beer and kept it cold hoping that would be good enough.

Note that adjusting for pH is also another important step with NA beers. With most beers, fermentation will drop the pH down below the food safe level of 4.6. With NA beers, acid adjustments are needed to lower the pH below that level.

This site it a pretty good resource: Ultra Low Brewing - Alcohol Free and Ultra Low Beer Brewing Techniques

I do have access to this yeast
I just don't know if it will carbonate, if it stops at 0.5 abv, then there will still be a lot of sugars left in there, why should adding some table sugar carbonate it?

 

[mashdar]

It may be difficult to maintain a culture of this yeast, both because of its intended limitations and the likelihood of infection in a low alcohol, maltose-rich beer. Ali, I imagine you're trying to harvest & repitch to get extra mileage out of the pack.

S-04 is relatively cheap/available and is pretty bad at eating maltotriose. Might be easier to culture, but it likes to be a bit cold.

Otherwise, as others said, check out other methods of dropping ABV. E.g. smaller grain bill (less is less), higher mash temperatures, or cold extraction. But keep in mind that beers outside of OG 1.030-1.040 may be sub-optimal for yeast propagation. Don't expect to harvest yeast from a 1% ABV batch. And super low ABV may need acid for food safety.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

It stops at about 0.5% alcohol in solution. There's still plenty of simple sugar available at this point so the only reason why it would stop seems to be the alcohol. At least from my point of view, I might be wrong of course.

I am not sure this is accurate. The first hit I saw says:

A standard all-malt wort will contain approximately 12% monosaccharides, 5% sucrose, 47% maltose, 15% maltotriose, and 25% higher saccharides, such as dextrins. Most of these wort sugars are produced in the mash tun, where enzymes in the grain convert starches to sugars.

I believe the basic idea of a yeast like LA-01 is that you will get less than 15% attenuation since it will not ferment the maltose or maltotriose. The data sheet by Fermentis says to start with a 7.2°P wort (1.028) to get around 0.5% ABV after fermentation. I have not seen evidence that the yeast stops at 0.5% ABV.

I just don't know if it will carbonate, if it stops at 0.5 abv, then there will still be a lot of sugars left in there, why should adding some table sugar carbonate it?

I suspect it will carbonate in a bottle, but it might be slow and/or it might not carbonate as much as a typical yeast. I would think that force carbonation would be a much more reliable and safe method. Once concern is that any contamination from wild yeast or brewers yeast might start to ferment the available maltose.

Personally, I tend to think that other options for making Low/NA beers are better options than LA-01 for homebrewers, especially if you are trying to bottle condition.

 

[Ali01]

It may be difficult to maintain a culture of this yeast, both because of its intended limitations and the likelihood of infection in a low alcohol, maltose-rich beer. Ali, I imagine you're trying to harvest & repitch to get extra mileage out of the pack.

S-04 is relatively cheap/available and is pretty bad at eating maltotriose. Might be easier to culture, but it likes to be a bit cold.

Otherwise, as others said, check out other methods of dropping ABV. E.g. smaller grain bill (less is less), higher mash temperatures, or cold extraction. But keep in mind that beers outside of OG 1.030-1.040 may be sub-optimal for yeast propagation. Don't expect to harvest yeast from a 1% ABV batch. And super low ABV may need acid for food safety.

Actually alcohol is not what I care about here
I just want to brew sweet beers, that's what I'm used to, I want to taste that sweetness/bitterness balance
Everything I've brewed so far have been very dry
It's like I'm drinking a hop tea

I can't force carb anything since I don't have a system for that
One thing I think I'll be trying is mashing high like above 80c
I will use acids and pasteurization for safety

 

[DBhomebrew]

I want to taste that sweetness/bitterness balance

Skip the fancy trickster yeast. Brew UK/British styles the way UK/British brewers do.

 

[mashdar]

Actually alcohol is not what I care about here
I just want to brew sweet beers, that's what I'm used to, I want to taste that sweetness/bitterness balance
Everything I've brewed so far have been very dry
It's like I'm drinking a hop tea

I can't force carb anything since I don't have a system for that
One thing I think I'll be trying is mashing high like above 80c
I will use acids and pasteurization for safety

Over 80C you'll get very low conversion. I think (?) some people do a ~80C mash to get very low beta amylase activity.

Is crystal malt readily available? That's an easy way to gain sweetness. Or lactose if you're lactose tolerant (chance you'll be in the restroom for a while if not). Also look for low attenuation yeasts (windsor comes to mind, or S-04 if limited options)

Artificial sweeteners, stevia, etc are also options.

Also, just use less hops. Sweeter beer should probably have BU:GU of 0.5 or less (that's IBU vs OG points, e.g. 20 IBU and OG 1.040 is BU:GU = 0.5)

Re acids, the fear is botulinum, which won't be killed at pasturization temperatures. Hops may prevent it, but AFAIK that's not well confirmed. If your beer is 2%+ it's almost definitely OK, but low ABV may not give the yeast enough food to drop the PH. (My 0.7% beer was 4.9pH at end of fermentation. Target is 4.6.)

 

[Ali01]

Over 80C you'll get very low conversion. I think (?) some people do a ~80C mash to get very low beta amylase activity.

Is crystal malt readily available? That's an easy way to gain sweetness. Or lactose if you're lactose tolerant (chance you'll be in the restroom fow a while if not). Also look for low attenuation yeasts (windsor comes to mind, or S-04 if limited options)

Artificial sweeteners, stevia, etc are also options.

Also, just use less hops. Sweeter beet should probably have BU:GU of 0.5 or less (that's IBU vs OG points, e.g. 20 IBU and OG 1.040 is BU:GU = 0.5)

Re acids, the fear is botulinum, which won't be killed at pasturization temperatures. Hops may prevent it, but AFAIK that's not well confirmed. If your beer is 2%+ it's almost definitely OK, but low ABV may not give the yeast enough food to drop the PH. (My 0.7% beer was 4.9pH at end of fermentation. Target is 4.6.)

It is and I've used it in my recipes, crystal malt, but it's not that sweet
Okay this seems like so much trouble for a normal brewer like me
I can't force carb, I'm going to try other methods

 

[DuncB]

Try mash at 68 C and then mashout.
Use some other poorly fermented malts such as gladiator that add body.
Try Windsor yeast it can't metabolise maltotriose, it will be able to cope with your alcohol level and will use the priming sugar to carbonate your bottles.
Widely used in English beers with malt backbone.
Much easier than pasteurization etc.