Thoughts on CO produced by propane burners

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phenry

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I know that if an ideal burn is maintained, CO production can be kept to a minimum through nearly complete combustion of the propane. But, even if a burn is overly rich or lean, would the carbon monoxide produced follow the wide-held belief of staying near ground level? It is at an extremely high temperature, therefore I would assume that it would rise up rather than sink down.

So, to test this, a friend and I brought out a CO2 monitor to a brew day. We had it sitting 3 feet above the ground, approximately 4 feet away from the burner, located in a garage with the door open. Throughout the entire time, we noticed only a slight increase in the ppm of CO2 measured by the monitor. After everything was cleaned though, we turned on a fan (it can get a little toasty in there) and the CO2 concentration spiked, from what I'm assuming was as close as we could get to a well-mixed environment.

We did the test again with the door partially open, and this time we measured the CO2 concentration at the gap at the top of the door, where all the hot air was escaping. It read out substantially higher than when sitting next to the burner (atmospheric CO2 concentrations were similar between the two days).

So my hypothesis is that even if you do produce undesirable amounts of CO during propane combustion, all of the reaction products are so hot that they rise up rather than sink down, so a CO monitor placed at head level would be more beneficial than the standard low-level placement for typical CO detection.

I will still always brew outside when I can, because even if I do have a near stoich burn I don't exactly trust my eyes to tell me how well the combustion is proceeding.

Just thought I would share what I found out with you guys. I don't claim to be a scientist by any means and realize I don't have multiple trials, any real controls, etc, because this was more just of a "hey, let's see if this is true or not."
 
First off, I'm assuming everywhere you wrote CO2 (carbon dioxide), you actually meant CO (carbon monoxide). Regarding mounting it near the floor or ceiling, I think you may be confusing it with an explosive gas detector. I have a combo CO/explosive gas alarm. Since NG is lighter than air, if you're using NG the manufacturer recommended mounting within 12 inches of the ceiling. However since propane is heavier than air, they recommended mounting close to the floor if propane is used. But you're right, in both circumstances the CO is hot and since it's slightly lighter than air, the concentrations will tend to be higher near the ceiling.

So long story short, if you're brewing with NG you're probably fine using a combo unit and mounting it near the ceiling. If you're brewing with propane, you're probably better using a separate CO alarm and explosive gas alarm; mount the CO alarm high and the explosive gas alarm low.
 
First off, I'm assuming everywhere you wrote CO2 (carbon dioxide), you actually meant CO (carbon dioxide). .

No, he meant CO2 because he had a CO2 monitor. Since CO2 is heavier than CO and the fact the he tested increased CO2 levels higher in the garage, the suggestion is CO (if present) will be present at higher concentrations higher up in the garage.
 
All that said, I'm betting he meant CO monitor, because home units are quite inexpensive (like, $30) while CO2 monitors are still pretty pricey ($150 and up). And from a level of importance, a CO monitor is considered a "must have"...

Cheers!
 
All that said, I'm betting he meant CO monitor, because home units are quite inexpensive (like, $30) while CO2 monitors are still pretty pricey ($150 and up). And from a level of importance, a CO monitor is considered a "must have"...

Cheers!

Additionally, he is discussing minimizing the generation of whichever gas through complete combustion. Incomplete combustion results in high CO; the CO2 is actually the product of complete combustion.
 
While we have a CO monitor in the house, I don't use one when I brew in the garage. Our garage is a 24 x 48' metal Morton Building, open inside, with a roof peak somewhere between 15 and 20 feet. I had it built with the ventilated soffits and a ridge vent, so any CO my propane burner generates is going up & out. Also, I don't brew in the Winter months, so I can keep all the doors open. Plenty of ventilation, plus the warm CO rising up & out the ridge vent means no worries.
 
No, I was definitely measuring CO2. I'm an engineering student so I borrowed the monitor from the air pollution lab (I don't have $150 to drop on one). I figured the CO and CO2 would have similar behavior since both gasses would be produced in just about identical circumstances, and seeing as I couldn't find the CO monitor I decided the CO2 monitor would provide a decent enough model of the CO path out of the garage, if it is being produced in significant quantities that is.

This was mainly just to test if the whole "Carbon monoxide is heavier than air so it will form a blanket on the ground and flow out of the room like water" assumption, which I usually found to make no sense given the huge disparity in temperatures between the combustion products and ambient air.

I still advocate using propane burners outdoors myself, there's no reason to not take a precaution if it's easy as just walking outside.
 
No, I was definitely measuring CO2. I'm an engineering student so I borrowed the monitor from the air pollution lab (I don't have $150 to drop on one). I figured the CO and CO2 would have similar behavior since both gasses would be produced in just about identical circumstances, and seeing as I couldn't find the CO monitor I decided the CO2 monitor would provide a decent enough model of the CO path out of the garage, if it is being produced in significant quantities that is.

This was mainly just to test if the whole "Carbon monoxide is heavier than air so it will form a blanket on the ground and flow out of the room like water" assumption, which I usually found to make no sense given the huge disparity in temperatures between the combustion products and ambient air.

It's nice to see experiments like this. Thanks for posting.
 
I must admit, I brew inside with my propane burner in the winter. I have a tile floor near my front door which is where I place my burner. I prop the front door open and turn on my ceiling fan to circulate the air. No downsides yet as far as I can tell. I know its not ideal, but it took me forever to boil the few times I brewed outside in 10-20º weather and I'm not doing that again.
 
I brew in the garage with the doors cracked and a fan blowing to circulate air. I know this is not ideal with a propane burner so I'm surfing the sea of information looking to switch to an electric setup.
 
I must admit, I brew inside with my propane burner in the winter. I have a tile floor near my front door which is where I place my burner. I prop the front door open and turn on my ceiling fan to circulate the air. No downsides yet as far as I can tell. I know its not ideal, but it took me forever to boil the few times I brewed outside in 10-20º weather and I'm not doing that again.

And if you keep your air/fuel ratio near ideal, you really shouldn't have any problem with the negative effects of CO exposure. The best precaution anyone brewing indoors could take is to know what a rich burn looks like and provide adequate ventilation. Or just go electric :D
 
My goal is to go all electric once we move to a bigger home and I can have a dedicated brewing area. Right now, I have a dedicated storage area for all my gear and my fridges, but I move my equipment to a different area to brew.
 
If iwas to brew in the garage I would have gotten a CO monitor with a clip.
Chest pocket is where we use it in the smelting industry because close to the face is whats important
 
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