This is interesting. What about Triticale?!

[slayer021175666]

A friend of mine gave me one gallon cans of this grain. I have four of them and they say that they're four and a half pounds each. Anyway, I'm pretty sure they're not malted or anything but, is there any use for these in brewing? I had never even heard of the grain until today. Looked it up on Google and it says it's a hybrid of rye and wheat. I don't much like rye but maybe using it as an adjunct? Who knows? Tell me what you guys know about it and what you think as far as brewing with it.
Thanks!

 

[IslandLizard]

Triticale is indeed a wheat/rye hybrid, carrying some of the character of each, while bringing something different, unique to the brew as well. Perhaps a smoothness in flavor?
Chances are your Triticale is just raw, unmalted. However, there are ("boutique type") maltsters that do malt it, as they do other "esoteric" grain.

Triticale are very skinny, needle-like kernels, and you'll need to mill it on a very narrow gap (0.010" or so), by itself, or nothing will come from it.
You could toast it somewhat on a baking sheet, before milling, for a bit more toastier flavor/aroma.

I've brewed with it a couple times, making up 40-60% of the grist, the remainder being Pale Malt. The results were nice, tasty and definitely unique. I'd say smoother than what one would expect if using a similar blend of wheat and rye.

Brew a half (or small) batch to see for yourself. I often tack on a (small) experimental batch to a brew day.

 

[RM-MN]

Lighter color (less kilned) malts like pale malt or brewers malt have enough excess enzymes to convert nearly their own weight in unmalted grain. You might give it a try with a smaller amount, perhaps up to 20% to see if you like the taste.

 

[AlexKay]

Agreed. Use in situations you might otherwise choose wheat (I made a hefetriticalen once.) The main beer style using unmalted wheat is a Belgian Wit, so it seems natural to try a Belgian Trit.

 

[slayer021175666]

So, the Triticale doesn't need to be malted? There's enough amylase in the malted barley to convert the starches in the Triticale to sugars?

 

[AlexKay]

So, the Triticale doesn't need to be malted? There's enough amylase in the malted barley to convert the starches in the Triticale to sugars?

Yes, as long as you use a reasonably pale malt (kilning denatures the enzymes), and as long as not too much of your grist is unmalted. If you're using Pilsner malt, for instance, you could probably push it so 50% of your grain bill is unmalted. (50-50 Pilsner/triticale for the Trit!) If your base malt is, say, Munich, I wouldn't go over 20% or so.

 

[slayer021175666]

Yes, as long as you use a reasonably pale malt (kilning denatures the enzymes), and as long as not too much of your grist is unmalted. If you're using Pilsner malt, for instance, you could probably push it so 50% of your grain bill is unmalted. (50-50 Pilsner/triticale for the Trit!) If your base malt is, say, Munich, I wouldn't go over 20% or so.

Thank you. I always use two row barley. What kind of a grain bill could I expect? Percentage wise like, you were saying before.

 

[slayer021175666]

Maybe I should have said, what kind of grain bill would you recommend? I do make an American wheat beer that I love. Maybe just take out the wheat and put in the triticale instead? Same amount?

 

[AlexKay]

American two-row and Pilsner have similar enzyme levels, so you should be fine, again up to 50%. I would indeed take your American wheat recipe and swap in triticale one for one.

 

[MugsWorth]

I used it a few times in Saisons, but can't remember the % or if it was Malted or not. We have a Craft Maltster in my town. He gave me some to try out. Now I'm on an Emmer kick !
It made Good beer. Try it along with your wheat malt.
Cheers

 

[slayer021175666]

I used it a few times in Saisons, but can't remember the % or if it was Malted or not. We have a Craft Maltster in my town. He gave me some to try out. Now I'm on an Emmer kick !
It made Good beer. Try it along with your wheat malt.
Cheers

Thanks. Along with my sweet malt or instead of my wheat malt?

 

[MugsWorth]

Along with Wheat or sub some for Wheat

 

[IslandLizard]

American two-row and Pilsner have similar enzyme levels, so you should be fine, again up to 50%. I would indeed take your American wheat recipe and swap in triticale one for one.

With modern malts a brewer can add much more (non-diastatic) adjuncts than 50%. For example Briess 2-row (it looks like they're calling it Brewers Malt now) has a diastatic power (DP) of 140°Lintner. A mixed grist should have an average DP of 35-40°Linter for full conversion, so each pound of that Brewers malt can easily convert 2 pounds of adjuncts: Average DP of such a mix would be (1*140 + 2*0) / 3 = 47°L, which is well above the minimum of 35-40°L.

In this case, a brewer could use 33% Briess 2-row and 66% (raw) Triticale and get complete conversion.
Or use wheat malt instead of, or in addition to barley. Most (lightly kilned) wheat malt has a minimum DP of 120°L.

 

[AlexKay]

For some reason the number I had in my head for an average DP was 55. (Checking now, Google gives me numbers between 30 and 70.) I can clarify: I have made beers with 50% adjunct (wheat, corn, or rye) in the grist, and had no problems.

 

[slayer021175666]

Yet another concise and very informative post from you, IslandLizard! You rock!
I have some questions.
Should I not be using malted grain such as, malted wheat, anymore? I've never looked around but, it seems like, regular old wheat from a feed store would be a lot cheaper.
Another thing that comes to mind is, should I stop mashing for a whole hour? Is that amount of time even necessary, anymore?

 

[IslandLizard]

Should I not be using malted grain such as, malted wheat, anymore?

There's nothing wrong with using malted grain such as malted wheat. Or malted barley, rye or any of the others.

It largely depends on the beer styles, recipes, whether traditional or deviations from them. Or your own recipe creations and specific flavor profiles you're after. There can be just as many reasons whether to use malted grain vs. "raw" (unmalted) grain. But you will need to incorporate an adequate amount of malted grain to make the mash work, or you're only making glue, or bread dough.

In some beers, such as Witbier for example, using a large percentage of "raw" wheat (at least 50%) is part of the style and gives it that unique "raw" wheat flavor and unparalleled mouthfeel.
A typical source of "raw" (unmalted) wheat is flaked wheat, which is already pre-gelatinized due to the steaming and hot rolling process. Torrefied wheat is raw, hot air-puffed wheat, giving it that undeniable "hot-puffed" flavor, and traditionally used in British beers.

Whole, unmalted wheat (berries) will need to be crushed, then cereal mashed with malted wheat or barley (or any other high diastatic malted grain) before it can be used in a conversion mash. That's extra work, but if you use a large percentage of it in your recipe, the resulting flavor it yields can be worth it.
Similar for rye and basically any other grain.

As a brewer you can choose to replace some, most, or even all, with unmalted versions of the various grain varieties. As long as you have enough malted grain incorporated to provide the needed diastatic power to convert the whole mash it should be all good. A properly performed Iodine test will help determine if conversion has been completed, while a gravity reading will tell you how successful it was.

You can always perform (small) test mashes with a pound or so of an experimental grist mix, to see how well it does.

@bracconiere malts much of the grain he uses for his beer and such. Not sure if or how much raw grain he incorporates in his beer recipes. Maybe he can chime in on that.

 

[slayer021175666]

There's nothing wrong with using malted grain such as malted wheat. Or malted barley, rye or any of the others.

It largely depends on the beer styles, recipes, whether traditional or deviations from them. Or your own recipe creations and specific flavor profiles you're after. There can be just as many reasons whether to use malted grain vs. "raw" (unmalted) grain. But you will need to incorporate an adequate amount of malted grain to make the mash work, or you're only making glue, or bread dough.

In some beers, such as Witbier for example, using a large percentage of "raw" wheat (at least 50%) is part of the style and gives it that unique "raw" wheat flavor and unparalleled mouthfeel.
A typical source of "raw" (unmalted) wheat is flaked wheat, which is already pre-gelatinized due to the steaming and hot rolling process. Torrefied wheat is raw, hot air-puffed wheat, giving it that undeniable "hot-puffed" flavor, and traditionally used in British beers.

Whole, unmalted wheat (berries) will need to be crushed, then cereal mashed with malted wheat or barley (or any other high diastatic malted grain) before it can be used in a conversion mash. That's extra work, but if you use a large percentage of it in your recipe, the resulting flavor it yields can be worth it.
Similar for rye and basically any other grain.

As a brewer you can choose to replace some, most, or even all, with unmalted versions of the various grain varieties. As long as you have enough malted grain incorporated to provide the needed diastatic power to convert the whole mash it should be all good. A properly performed Iodine test will help determine if conversion has been completed, while a gravity reading will tell you how successful it was.

You can always perform (small) test mashes with a pound or so of an experimental grist mix, to see how well it does.

@bracconiere malts much of the grain he uses for his beer and such. Not sure if or how much raw grain he incorporates in his beer recipes. Maybe he can chime in on that.

So, raw wheat would taste different than malted wheat?

 

[bracconiere]

So, raw wheat would taste different than malted wheat?

i think raw wheat from the feed store tastes gross. i believe they spray anything that doesn't have a husk, so nothing but barley and oats from the feed store...

for a while back in 2016 when i first started malting, and thought i had to use my food dehydrator for it, i could only do 8lbs at a time, and was cheating using 5lbs white flour...it'd convert, tasted fine, but damn it, sparging was a barely doable nightmare!

 

[slayer021175666]

i think raw wheat from the feed store tastes gross. i believe they spray anything that doesn't have a husk, so nothing but barley and oats from the feed store...

for a while back in 2016 when i first started malting, and thought i had to use my food dehydrator for it, i could only do 8lbs at a time, and was cheating using 5lbs white flour...it'd convert, tasted fine, but damn it, sparging was a barely doable nightmare!

So, could a guy take some barley from the feed store and add it with malted barley to cut down on costs per batch though?

 

[bracconiere]

So, could a guy take some barley from the feed store and add it with malted barley to cut down on costs per batch though?

are you playin' me? a guy could take bag of barley from the feed store, malt it, and brew a $8 twelve pack! with gluco 8% ABV!

all you need is a box fan some sweater drying racks, a place to soak it with a lot of open air, and an oven....and a couple buckets....

edit: but if you still want to look cool, no shame in some white flour....just don't sink to sugar, you'll lose all HBT cred! have to add your tally to my hard seltzer gallons thread