Thirteen questions about winemaking from an experienced homebrewer

[danbronson]

Hello, I have some experience with all grain homebrewing that may help with winemaking, which I intend to do next weekend for the first time with a kit I've just purchased (Cru Select Chile Style Cabernet Malbec Carménère). I have much of the equipment necessary - several carboys, a temperature controlled fermentation fridge, airlocks/blow-off tubes, PBW/Starsan, silicon hosing, autosiphon, funnels, bottling wand... And a little equipment that may be beneficial - stirplate, digital pH meter, lactic acid, yeast nutrient, oxygenation stone/tanks, beer bottles/caps...

Here is my list of questions, I really appreciate any and all answers people may have! I really want to stress that I'm not interested "it'll still make wine, don't worry about it" ways of thinking. I'm interested in answers that result in the best possible wine I can make with this kit.

1. Will it be beneficial for me to check and adjust the pH at any point?
2. With brewing I use reverse osmosis water and add CaSO4 and CaCl2 to control the mineral profile. Will controlling water chemistry improve my wine too, even if it's from a kit? My tap water is high in bicarbonate/alkalinity and moderate in just about everything else. It's good for drinking.
3. My wine kit comes with a single pack of dry yeast for the whole 5 or 6 gallon batch. Many brewing kits do the same thing and many inexperienced brewers just add a single pack of yeast. Decent beer can be made this way but I would not do it. Instead I calculate an appropriate cell count and make a yeast starter from liquid yeast to ensure a healthy fermentation. Can I potentially improve my wine as well by doing something similar?
4. The yeast that comes with the kit is simple S. Cerevisiae (same species as brewers yeast). Could I make a potentially better wine by blending yeasts or even adding certain bacterias, as one can with sour ales/lambics?
5. Much of what I'm reading says to transfer to a second, third, or even fourth fermenter in order to clarify the wine as it ages. This sounds like a potential oxygenation nightmare. In brewing, transferring to a secondary is only necessary for bulk aging, to get the beer off the yeast so autolysis can't create off-flavours. At this point I would only transfer the beer into a CO2 filled carboy (which I can do with my kegging equipment) to ensure that it has as little oxygen exposure as possible. Is it the same with wine?
6. My kit calls for adding bentonite prior to fermentation. Seems to me like this would fight the fermentation a little by encouraging yeast to drop out early. Why not add it later or clarify another way?
7. My kit also calls for adding sulphite, potassium sorbate, kieselsol, and chitosan at various points. Are the experienced guys doing this? Are there other ways to accomplish what they accomplish that work better? I don't know what these things do yet but I'm not looking for the safe way, I'm looking for the best way.
8. Back on the bentonite note, in brewing the most effective way to clarify is to cold crash after fermentation has completed down to just about freezing temperature and add a bit of unflavoured gelatine. Will this work with wine as well? Perhaps I can skip the bentonite and speed up the clarification process without any negative effects.
9. Degassing (whipping the crap out of your wine after fermentation) seems insane to me, like it would cause serious oxidation problems. Isn't this something aging in a carboy could accomplish as well? Surely the people making award winning wines have a better method of removing CO2!
10. Prior to pitching yeast in beer, I oxygenate for about a minute with a stone and O2 tank. Many brewers alternatively just shake the crap out of their carboy with similar results. The added oxygen helps the yeast count grow in the ~12 hours after being pitched, before visible fermentation takes off. Is this good practice with wine as well?
11. Is it good practice to add yeast nutrients to a wine at the same time yeast is added, as it is with brewing?
12. Any reason I can't just use beer bottles and caps when it's finally time to bottle? Or is there some reason a cork should be used? I have a lot of beer bottles but none for wine.
13. Final and perhaps biggest question, if you had to make a wine using my kit, as an experienced winemaker how would your process differ from that of the included instructions?

I am not afraid of doing extra steps or switching things up to more difficult methods in order to make a better wine. And I'm definitely not afraid to age it for a long period of time (6+ months). With your help, I want to make the best wine possible. Thank you very much!

 

[mgonbrewlab]

I cannot answer all of these but will do what I can relative to my experience.

1. Will it be beneficial for me to check and adjust the pH at any point? IMO no. Your kit will be pH balanced to create a non hostile environment for fermentation. Acid adjustments are better done by taste as they are relative to the style and body of the wine.
2. With brewing I use reverse osmosis water and add CaSO4 and CaCl2 to control the mineral profile. Will controlling water chemistry improve my wine too, even if it's from a kit? My tap water is high in bicarbonate/alkalinity and moderate in just about everything else. It's good for drinking.
3. My wine kit comes with a single pack of dry yeast for the whole 5 or 6 gallon batch. Many brewing kits do the same thing and many inexperienced brewers just add a single pack of yeast. Decent beer can be made this way but I would not do it. Instead I calculate an appropriate cell count and make a yeast starter from liquid yeast to ensure a healthy fermentation. Can I potentially improve my wine as well by doing something similar?
4. The yeast that comes with the kit is simple S. Cerevisiae (same species as brewers yeast). Could I make a potentially better wine by blending yeasts or even adding certain bacterias, as one can with sour ales/lambics? Entirely based on style and personal preference. Who says intentionally spoiled beer is better than unspoiled beer other than beer snobs ? I have not tried yeast blending but similar to beer there are a wide variety of wine yeasts available with specific characteristics and flavor profiles.
5. Much of what I'm reading says to transfer to a second, third, or even fourth fermenter in order to clarify the wine as it ages. This sounds like a potential oxygenation nightmare. In brewing, transferring to a secondary is only necessary for bulk aging, to get the beer off the yeast so autolysis can't create off-flavours. At this point I would only transfer the beer into a CO2 filled carboy (which I can do with my kegging equipment) to ensure that it has as little oxygen exposure as possible. Is it the same with wine? The racking and transfer is necessary. If you can flood the vessel with CO2 all the better.
6. My kit calls for adding bentonite prior to fermentation. Seems to me like this would fight the fermentation a little by encouraging yeast to drop out early. Why not add it later or clarify another way? Time is a great clarified. kits rush you to bottle so you buy more kits.
7. My kit also calls for adding sulphite, potassium sorbate, kieselsol, and chitosan at various points. Are the experienced guys doing this? Are there other ways to accomplish what they accomplish that work better? I don't know what these things do yet but I'm not looking for the safe way, I'm looking for the best way. Sorbate is not critical if your wine will be bottled clear and not sweetened. Sulphite is very important - if you plan on aging your wine it is vitally important. I personally do not use the other two.
8. Back on the bentonite note, in brewing the most effective way to clarify is to cold crash after fermentation has completed down to just about freezing temperature and add a bit of unflavoured gelatine. Will this work with wine as well? Perhaps I can skip the bentonite and speed up the clarification process without any negative effects. Cold stabalization can help clear a dry wine but the main benefit is to smooth out an overly tart wine. Time is really the best clarifier in most cases.
9. Degassing (whipping the crap out of your wine after fermentation) seems insane to me, like it would cause serious oxidation problems. Isn't this something aging in a carboy could accomplish as well? Surely the people making award winning wines have a better method of removing CO2! Vacuum pump. Or your sulphites, which act as an antioxidant preserving, clarifying, and degassing your wine.
10. Prior to pitching yeast in beer, I oxygenate for about a minute with a stone and O2 tank. Many brewers alternatively just shake the crap out of their carboy with similar results. The added oxygen helps the yeast count grow in the ~12 hours after being pitched, before visible fermentation takes off. Is this good practice with wine as well? Wine should be aerated well before pitching and every day during primary. This aids the degassing process as well.
11. Is it good practice to add yeast nutrients to a wine at the same time yeast is added, as it is with brewing? I have seen it advised to add nelutrients to must before sulphites, which is generally 24 hours before pitching.
12. Any reason I can't just use beer bottles and caps when it's finally time to bottle? Or is there some reason a cork should be used? I have a lot of beer bottles but none for wine. A lot of people will chime in with microoxidation but really, tradition. Use em.
13. Final and perhaps biggest question, if you had to make a wine using my kit, as an experienced winemaker how would your process differ from that of the included instructions? Your kit rushes you to bottle. manually degassing and clarifying are generally not needed for most wines given time and proper conditions.

 

[danbronson]

That was very helpful. Thank you.

 

[DoctorCAD]

Follow the directions, even if it seems to go against everything you learned about beer.

Beer is NOT wine, wine is NOT beer.

1. No
2. If you can drink your tap water, use it.
3. The yeast is the correct type for that kit.
4. See 3
5. A little oxygen will not hurt wine.
6. Follow the directions with the bentonite.
7. Follow the directions for the additives.
8. Anything to speed up the process is counter to all winemaking techniques.
9. Kits are rushed to the bottle, sitting for 6 months will degas, but whipping works (see 5).
10. Not necessary.
11. No, everything needed is already in the juice. Unlike grain, grapes are the perfect medium for yeast growth
12. No problem with beer bottles, but it is not "traditional".
13. Minimum time in the secondary of 6 months, that's all I do. Sometimes I do add a little soft tannin if the wine type requires it, tannins seem to be lacking in lots of kits, but that is probably to appeal to the masses, I like tannic wine.

 

[jensmith]

1- no
2- no
3-one yeast pkt is all you need. No other stuff needed. You can use a different type of wine yeast if wanted. But only wine yeast. Just Use what is given.
4- no
5- racking is neccesary. Using an autosyphon or racking cane will protect the wine. This is wine not beer. No need to panic.
6-bennadite helps clear the wine sooner. Does not bother fermentaion. Best used with heavey fruit, not needed for just juice. I never use it, I let time and pectin enzyme clear my wine.
7- sulfite will protect against oxigen and some bad bugs. It can stun wild yeast. You can add it after the wine has finished fermenting and then at everyother racking. Then just befor botteling. This will give you a nice mild protection and increase shelf life of the finished wine. Without giving you high levels of sulfa in the wine. You can also skipp it entirerly and have good clean wine 95% of the time.
Sorbate is only added if you plan on backsweetning the wine.
The other things are clarifiers. Not really needed if you don't mind the hurry up and wait method.
8-agreed! Ferment in an open bucket, stirr twice daily, and let it age a few extra months and there is no need to "degass" it. This will be hard for a beer person, but yes, open bucket covered with a towl, stirred twice daily. If you airlock it to start with you will need to degass it. Take your pick. Remember this is wine, not beer. Wine is bullet proof compared to beer!
9-probely, but so not worth the effort!
10-age a year. Or start in an open bucket and stirr twice daily.
11-using tap water.. No arraitation is needed. Just stir twice daily.
12-nutriants and yeast can be added the same time. Some people add all the nutriants at once. Others dole them out over a few days. I'm a dump all in at once type of person.
13- bottle in beer bottles and caps is fine. If you plan on agging this wine I would opt for wine bottles and corks. Personal preffernce, no real reason.

14- that all said, follow the kit instructions the first time around. Leave most of your beer brewing knowage somewhere else. Wine is as easy as dump the juice in a bucket. Stirr daily for a week. Rack. Rack every two months untill clear. Bottle and drink!

Hello,

1. Will it be beneficial for me to check and adjust the pH at any point?
2. With brewing I use reverse osmosis water and add CaSO4 and CaCl2 to control the mineral profile. Will controlling water chemistry improve my wine too, even if it's from a kit? My tap water is high in bicarbonate/alkalinity and moderate in just about everything else. It's good for drinking.
3. My wine kit comes with a single pack of dry yeast for the whole 5 or 6 gallon batch. Many brewing kits do the same thing and many inexperienced brewers just add a single pack of yeast. Decent beer can be made this way but I would not do it. Instead I calculate an appropriate cell count and make a yeast starter from liquid yeast to ensure a healthy fermentation. Can I potentially improve my wine as well by doing something similar?
4. The yeast that comes with the kit is simple S. Cerevisiae (same species as brewers yeast). Could I make a potentially better wine by blending yeasts or even adding certain bacterias, as one can with sour ales/lambics?
5. Much of what I'm reading says to transfer to a second, third, or even fourth fermenter in order to clarify the wine as it ages. This sounds like a potential oxygenation nightmare. In brewing, transferring to a secondary is only necessary for bulk aging, to get the beer off the yeast so autolysis can't create off-flavours. At this point I would only transfer the beer into a CO2 filled carboy (which I can do with my kegging equipment) to ensure that it has as little oxygen exposure as possible. Is it the same with wine?
6. My kit calls for adding bentonite prior to fermentation. Seems to me like this would fight the fermentation a little by encouraging yeast to drop out early. Why not add it later or clarify another way?
7. My kit also calls for adding sulphite, potassium sorbate, kieselsol, and chitosan at various points. Are the experienced guys doing this? Are there other ways to accomplish what they accomplish that work better? I don't know what these things do yet but I'm not looking for the safe way, I'm looking for the best way.
8. Back on the bentonite note, in brewing the most effective way to clarify is to cold crash after fermentation has completed down to just about freezing temperature and add a bit of unflavoured gelatine. Will this work with wine as well? Perhaps I can skip the bentonite and speed up the clarification process without any negative effects.
9. Degassing (whipping the crap out of your wine after fermentation) seems insane to me, like it would cause serious oxidation problems. Isn't this something aging in a carboy could accomplish as well? Surely the people making award winning wines have a better method of removing CO2!
10. Prior to pitching yeast in beer, I oxygenate for about a minute with a stone and O2 tank. Many brewers alternatively just shake the crap out of their carboy with similar results. The added oxygen helps the yeast count grow in the ~12 hours after being pitched, before visible fermentation takes off. Is this good practice with wine as well?
11. Is it good practice to add yeast nutrients to a wine at the same time yeast is added, as it is with brewing?
12. Any reason I can't just use beer bottles and caps when it's finally time to bottle? Or is there some reason a cork should be used? I have a lot of beer bottles but none for wine.
13. Final and perhaps biggest question, if you had to make a wine using my kit, as an experienced winemaker how would your process differ from that of the included instructions?

I am not afraid of doing extra steps or switching things up to more difficult methods in order to make a better wine. And I'm definitely not afraid to age it for a long period of time (6+ months). With your help, I want to make the best wine possible. Thank you very much!

Sent from my iPod touch using Home Brew

 

[RansomBrewing]

I am also a relatively inexperienced winemaker.
1. I don't change water chemistry even for my beer. We have lived in different regions of the US and used tap water at each location. We even tried distilled/RO water and I couldn't taste a difference.
2. Nah. But, I'm a noob. Someone else on here will probably have some insight.
3 & 4. The dry yeast packets that come with the kit has always been sufficient for me. I've never experimented with changing amount or variety. I guess I'm a plain Jane type of wine maker.
5. I worried about this as well when we started doing it. After the first few batches of wine where I couldn't tell too much difference I realized it wasn't too big of a deal.
6. Time is a great clarifier as someone else previously said. See #7.
7. Kieselsol, and chitosan are also clarifiers (super-kleer if you have ever used it). I'm not experienced, but we generally use everything that comes in the kit.
8. Just because I'm more of a "let's play it safe the first time" kind of guy, I would just try to follow the instructions erroring on the side of more time.
9. Degassing seems to be important from what I can tell. The first time (because we were worried about oxidation) we just kind of stirred it and got some bubbles and called it good. Now, we have one of these: http://www.midwestsupplies.com/the-...7KIHcbxWXHEYLBNExJFcTfHSmvVhYAFljpRoCHSbw_wcB
10. Stir it!
11. Unless we are doing something like a mead, we don't usually add yeast nutrients. But, as I've said. I'm a noob.
12. We carbed up some champagne bottles. And we've kegged one of those cheap island mist kits once. I say go for it.
13. My big thing to get used to was.. beer requires decent effort on the day of and minimal effort after that (a transfer to secondary, and bottle), right? Wine, while it does not require as much work (especially if doing a kit), the time and tasks after the initial day is much greater. You seem very thorough so I'm sure that you will do fine. Besides, what is the worst that happens... you make some wine?

 

[bernardsmith]

If you have never made wine before and you are planning on making wine from a kit I would follow the directions the kit manufacturer has provided. Once you have made a few kits and perhaps tried your hand at making wine from fruits other than grapes and honey and flowers and you understand the reasons behind the directions in the kits and you will be able to use them or ignore them but as DoctorCad astutely noted, wine ain't beer and wine making is not the same as brewing. Good luck!

 

[WVMJ]

First, since you already have all the skills needed to make wine, and then some, why would you start with a kit? What advice would you give someone making a beer kit vs what you already know about how to brew? Wine has a higher alcohol and acid level then beer so its protected more from spoilage, not immune but degassing is a good thing, if its got gas then you are not going to oxidize it getting rid of the gas, a vacum pump works much better, surprised you dont already have one") Follow the kit instruction, make a drinkable nice wine, and while you are waiting for that go pick some berries and make a good country wine from scratch using everything you already know how to do, but dont cook anything, raw is ok in winemaking, a little sulfite helps out a lot. I dont make much beer myself, way to much work vs making wine WVMJ