The Price Experiment

[Chriso]

There's been a lot of talk lately of kits and contents and prices and fairness and a whole host of other catchy buzzwords thrown in. So I got a wild hare up my bum to price out some recipes from all the major OHBSes, and post 'em here.

A couple notes on my intent:
I'm focusing on the people who buy one, or perhaps two, batches at a time, but do not buy 3+ in advance due to their brewing schedule. These people are likely to have a small amount (4oz here, 6oz there, etc) of specialty grains left over from prior recipes, but are not likely to have a large stock of specialty grains on hand. For the sake of this experiment, let's assume that all 4 stores treat their customers equally well - after all, if I'm spending money somewhere, I EXPECT them to treat me as such. For now, since I'm doing one recipe at a time, so I'm not including any "special deals" on shipping. For example, MoreBeer gives you free shipping if you spend $59, and Northern Brewer gives you free shipping if you spend $200. Soon, I hope to get some multi-recipe scenarios priced and added, to see if these free shipping deals really do pay off. For now, we're looking at one batch at a time.

Up on the pricing block today are:

1. A rough approximation of Orfy's Hobgoblin
2. A fairly simple American Pale Ale
3. A pretty ordinary Stout - not one particular style, just a reasonable, mid-5%ABV stout
4. An IIPA, loosely based on EdWort's Stone IPA and also on PseudoChef's Heathen IIPA. New!
5. A crazy American Imperial Stout. New!​

The rules are as follows:

1. Whole-kernel all-grain only, no extract here, and no pre-crushed grain. Everything will be a 1lb minimum because not all vendors support partial amounts.
2. Strive for utmost consistency, making as few sub's as possible.
3. Try to match quality - e.g. don't buy Rahr from one place and Munton's from another.
4. Same recipe, same yeast, from each vendor I visit. If liquid yeast, no ice packs, no nutrient, JUST yeast. (In reality I would buy ice packs. This is just for fair examination.)
5. All shipping is to zip code 68501.
6. NO WHOLESALERS. No North Country Malt, no Hops Direct, just RETAIL stores.
7. As a rule of thumb, I will use the cheapest 2-Row base malt available from each vendor, unless I am using "brand name", e.g. Maris Otter or Golden Promise. In most cases, this will be Rahr 2-Row. It may be Great Western 2-Row, or it may not even say what brand it is.​

Here they are, with recipes!



1. Bastardized Hobgoblin

9lb Maris Otter
1lb Briess Caramel 60 (omitting the Cara-Pils due to the 1lb minimum. Normally this would be 8oz C-60 and 8oz Cara-Pils.)
1lb UK Chocolate malt (only need 4 oz, but again, 1lb minimum for grains)
2 oz British hops (Fuggle where available, Note any substitutes. Schedule: 1 oz @ 60min, .5 oz @ 20min, .5 oz @ Flameout)
1 packet Safale S-04 (due to lack of Nottingham availability)

Midwest Supplies: $25.40 plus $9.69 shipping = $35.09
Northern Brewer: $30.38 plus $7.99 shipping = $38.37
MoreBeer: $27.25 plus $12.39 shipping = $39.64 - *Fuggles not available, used EKG instead.
Austin Homebrew: $32.97 plus $6.99 shipping = $39.96​

​

2. American Pale Ale

8lb Pale 2-Row malt (Assume Rahr, note any exceptions.)
1lb Cara-Pils
1oz Glacier 60min
2oz Cascade 1oz 10min, 1oz dry hop
Safale US-05

Midwest Supplies: $18.70 plus $9.11 shipping = $27.81
MoreBeer: $20.36 plus $11.56 shipping = $31.92
•MB: Took off $1.75 for 1 extra ounce of Glacier - sold in min 2 oz increment. Actual total = $33.67 including "bonus ounce".
Austin Homebrew: $24.96 plus $6.99 shipping = $31.95
Northern Brewer: $25.63 plus $7.99 shipping = $33.62​

​

3. Stout

6lbs Pale 2-Row malt (Assume Rahr, note any exceptions.)
2lb Munich (regular 10L if asked)
1lb Roasted Barley
1lb Flaked Barley
2oz Willamette at 60 min
White Labs Burton Ale Yeast (WLP023)

Midwest Supplies: $23.50 plus $9.40 shipping = $32.90
MoreBeer: $24.77 plus $11.95 shipping = $36.72
Austin Homebrew: $30.57 plus $6.99 shipping = $37.56
Northern Brewer: $31.27 plus $7.99 shipping = $39.26​

​

4. Double IPA

12lb Pale 2-Row malt (Assume Rahr, note any exceptions.)
1lb Munich
1lb Victory
4oz Cascade (1oz each at 60 min, 15min, flame-out, & dry-hopping) Due to the shortage, I'll note any substitutes I have to make.
Safale US-05 Yeast

Midwest Supplies: $25.50 plus $9.98 shipping = $35.48
Austin Homebrew: $34.75 plus $6.99 shipping = $41.74
MoreBeer: $29.54 plus $14.04 shipping = $43.58
Northern Brewer: $40.71 plus $7.99 shipping = $48.70
•NB does not have Cascade, so I used 4oz Cluster hops.​

​

5. Imperial Stout

15lb Pale 2-Row malt (Assume Rahr, note any exceptions.)
2lb Special Roast
1lb Biscuit
1lb Roasted Barley
2oz High-AA Bittering at 60min (Galena, Magnum, Warrior, whatever I can get from the suppliers)
2oz American Hop at 10min (I want to choose Galena for bittering and Cascade for flavor/aroma, but due to the shortage, I'll price whatever I can get. I'll note what variety is coming from each supplier.)
Wyeast American Ale WY1056 (Just to try something besides White Labs.)

Midwest Supplies: $36.25 plus $11.24 shipping = $47.49
•MW: 2oz Galena bittering, 2oz Cascade aroma.
Austin Homebrew: $49.95 plus $6.99 shipping = $56.94
•AH: 2oz Galena bittering, 2oz Cascade aroma.
MoreBeer: $43.20 plus $16.92 shipping = $60.12
•B3: does not carry Biscuit malt, or Wyeast. Substituted 1lb Victory malt, and WLP001 yeast. Used 2oz Columbus bittering, 2oz Cascade aroma. B3 does not have Magnum/Galena/etc.
Northern Brewer: $53.71 plus $7.99 shipping = $61.70
•NB: 2oz Galena bittering, 2oz Cluster aroma. (NB doesn't have Cascade).​

​

6. 20-Gallon Sterling SMaSH (Or 2x 10 gallon or 4x 5 gallon)

40lbs Pale 2-Row malt
4oz Sterling - 1/2 Bittering, 1/2 Aroma
2 packs Safale US-05

MoreBeer: $60.41 plus $0.00 MoreSaver! shipping = $60.41
Midwest Supplies: $46.90 plus $17.91 shipping = $64.81
Austin Homebrew (*1): $69.93 plus $6.99 shipping = $76.92
Austin Homebrew (*2): $75.94 plus $6.99 shipping = $82.91
Northern Brewer: $80.46 plus $7.99 shipping = $88.45


Notes: Austin Homebrew (*1) is using the Bulk 40# 2-Row product. Austin Homebrew (*2) is using two 20# packages of by-the-pound 2-Row. MoreBeer free shipping starts at $60, so it is pure luck that we came out $0.41 over that.​

 

[the_bird]

I think it would be fair to do a pro-rata price for grain and hops. As you said, the Glacier will be used later on, so only assign the cost for one ounce to this particular beer.

Great idea, BTW! Once we get enough datapoints, maybe I'll build out a spreadsheet to analyze who really does tend to be cheapest.

 

[Chriso]

Edited for Glacier pro-rated price. ($1.75 per ounce, in 2 oz increments.) I thought about doing that, but then I wandered off to creating a stout, and forgot to edit it.

Also interesting: When pricing the Hobgoblin from Midwest, it was $0.05 more to buy 10lbs Maris Otter than to add 9x 1lb increments of Maris Otter. Their pricing structure rewards purchase in "easy" increments of 1's, 5's, or 10's.

Either way, this is a fun little "exercise" and I think I might do a couple more this afternoon - perhaps I'll price out the 9-9-9 Barleywine

I'm curious about a number of variables, but the "weirdest" one I'm after is if one store is cheaper for certain styles of beer than others. For example, is Northern Brewer the cheapest place for German lagers, but not for British ales? Is B3 cheapest for IPAs, but most expensive for Stouts? You get the idea.

 

[BigKahuna]

I think this is great. Thanks for spending the time to do this.
I assume that you have personal experience with these places to ensure quality and customer service is similar? (I don't)

Again...Good Move Chriso!

 

[Ryan_PA]

Cool thread. I rarely buy ingredients in a package like this, but rather in bulk and order to supplement missing items.

This should be a good source of comparisons, lets just hope it stays on the positive side of the fence.

 

[the_bird]

Cool thread. I rarely buy ingredients in a package like this, but rather in bulk and order to supplement missing items.

This should be a good source of comparisons, lets just hope it stays on the positive side of the fence.

Just keep it factual, then maybe we can try and draw some conclusions after the fact. It may well be that Morebeer proves to be a little bit cheaper on average, but being on the east coast i may decide that shipping takes too long. But, pick the recipe, THEN price it out, and let's lay out the facts.

 

[jmulligan]

Thanks for doing this, Chriso. I usually do this for each of my batches (compaing Austin Homebrew, Williams, and my LHBS). It would be great to see if there is an emerging trend for saving money.

 

[Special Hops]

Can some add bulk pricing for these recipes as well. I am interested to see the comparison

 

[Ryan_PA]

Here are the stats for the same from Williams shipped to PA:

Goblin
Williams $29.35 + $6.50 shipping = $35.85

Pale Ale
Williams $24.25 + $6.50 shipping = $30.75

Stout
Williams $32.85 + $6.5 shipping = $39.35

---------------------------------------------------

Breakdown:

Hobgoblin
9lb Maris Otter $18.00
1lb Briess Caramel 60 $2.00
1lb UK Chocolate malt $2.00
2 oz British hops $5.50
1 packet Safale S-04 $1.85
Shipping $6.50
Total $35.85

Pale Ale
8lb Pale 2-Row malt $14.00
1lb Cara-Pils $2.15
1oz Glacier 60min $2.25 (1/2 of 4.50 for 2 oz of amarillo)
2oz Cascade 1oz 10min, 1oz dry hop $4.00
Safale US-05 $1.85
Shipping $6.50
Total $30.75

Stout
6lbs Pale 2-Row malt (Assume Rahr, note any exceptions.) $14.00
2lb Munich (regular 10L if asked) $4.00
1lb Roasted Barley $2.25
1lb Flaked Barley $1.85
2oz Willamette at 60 min $4.50
White Labs Burton Ale Yeast $6.25 (Used WY1098)
Shipping $6.50
Total $39.35

 

[Austinhomebrew]

Also keep in mind that you are stating $6.99 for shipping for each recipe from us when it would also be $6.99 for shipping if you ordered all 3 at once. Even if you ordered 100 pounds of grain to go with it.

 

[Ecnerwal]

I realized after I'd gone ahead and ordered a pile from NB (a big pile to get the free ship deal - not bad on 91 lbs of stuff from MN to MA) that searching a little bit further things got a LOT cheaper for grain malt from north country malt - although their web ordering setup seems to be random as to working for me or not on any given day. But I'll get through the NB stuff and see if I've made the jump to AG or not really before I worry about it any more, and perhaps also see about making some local connections to split bags rather than try to store too much, too long.

 

[Ecnerwal]

Where is delete? - double posted.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

I realized after I'd gone ahead and ordered a pile from NB (a big pile to get the free ship deal - not bad on 91 lbs of stuff from MN to MA) that searching a little bit further things got a LOT cheaper for grain malt from north country malt - although their web ordering setup seems to be random as to working for me or not on any given day. But I'll get through the NB stuff and see if I've made the jump to AG or not really before I worry about it any more, and perhaps also see about making some local connections to split bags rather than try to store too much, too long.

North Country Malt is a wholesaler and Northern Brewer is a retailer. There will be a price difference.

 

[Bobby_M]

Also keep in mind that you are stating $6.99 for shipping for each recipe from us when it would also be $6.99 for shipping if you ordered all 3 at once. Even if you ordered 100 pounds of grain to go with it.

Completely true and valid if its someone who's able to brew a few batches in a couple months or can afford to drop the coin on 3 recipes at once. This exercise is most valid for someone that would buy a single batch worth at a time, brew it, then start thinking about what to brew next..

 

[the_bird]

If you want to strive for consistency, ignore bulk purchases. That could be a second study. You could even calculate the costs with and without shipping, fairly easily, so that you can study how much of a difference flat-rate shipping from either Austin Homebrew or NB would make if doing multiple batches.

 

[BigKahuna]

This exercise is most valid for someone that would buy a single batch worth at a time, brew it, then start thinking about what to brew next..

And those are the people that need to save the few bucks anyway. I'll spend an extra dollar or so for whatever whim I have, but the guy that's trying to save $2 on a batch is no likely to be ordering 2 or 3 at a time.

 

[McGarnigle]

Are you pro-rating grains by amount? AHS let's you order by the ounce; others have one pond minimums. I don't know if you can assume it will all be used eventually (esp. if you buy milled). Even with hops, sometimes I feel like I'm choosing a style based on my leftovers rather than what I really want.

So it's tricky, which isn't to say the exercize isn't worthwhile.

 

[Chello]

Are you pro-rating grains by amount? AHS let's you order by the ounce; others have one pond minimums. I don't know if you can assume it will all be used eventually (esp. if you buy milled). Even with hops, sometimes I feel like I'm choosing a style based on my leftovers rather than what I really want.

So it's tricky, which isn't to say the exercize isn't worthwhile.

I believe it says he only bought grain in 1lb increments.

 

[McGarnigle]

I believe it says he only bought grain in 1lb increments.

Right, but I wasn't sure if that was just Morebeer. Some places force you to buy a full pound, others don't. No need to pretend you'd order a full pound if you don't need to.

 

[conpewter]

Good study and an interesting price comparison, though as mentioned it won't apply as much for those of us who plan out ahead several brews and buy bulk hops and base grains.

 

[Chriso]

Some places force you to buy a full pound, others don't. No need to pretend you'd order a full pound if you don't need to.

@McGarnigle: That is correct, but that is also exactly the assumption that I made: That it never hurts to get the "leftovers" of a pound of specialty grain. Grain was purchased in 1lb increments only. For example, the Hobgoblin needs only 4oz Chocolate. Off topic, but Midwest Supplies has a unique system in that you can purchase in 1/2 lb increments, but not individual ounces. This is handy for those that like to have a small stock of grains on hand, but don't want to be stuck with 1 Lb of Peated Malt.
But by buying 1 lb, unmilled, from each supplier, I know that the pricing is still fair. In the case of the Glacier hops, however, the others sold in a 1oz increment, and B3 was the only place that sold in 2oz increments, so in that one instance, I took the price of 1 single ounce off of the listed total, and noted the change.

@Special Hops, Bobby_M, others: Yes, I'm focusing on the people who buy one, or perhaps two, batches at a time, but do not buy 3+ in advance due to their brewing schedule. These people are likely to have a small amount (4oz here, 6oz there, etc) of specialty grains left over from prior recipes, but are not likely to have a large stock of specialty grains on hand. I am - at some times - one of these types of brewers. At other times, I have a 55# sack and 10+# of specialty in stock. It varies right along with what I brew.

@Ecnerwal, Austin Homebrew is correct, I am choosing to focus only on Retail Online HBSes. I am trying to compare "apples to apples" as the expression goes. I am trying to execute these comparisons as fairly as possible, in an unbiased fashion. Let's please leave the discussion about North Country Malt and other *wholesalers* to another thread. Okay?

I assume that you have personal experience with these places to ensure quality and customer service is similar? (I don't)

@BigKahuna: I have ordered from Austin Homebrew and Midwest Supplies numerous times each. I have never ordered from B3 before, and Northern Brewer only once (wayyy long time ago). I know that this could be a point of contention, as all 4 stores are not perfectly equal. But for the sake of this experiment, let's assume that all 4 stores treat their customers equally well - after all, if I'm spending money somewhere, I EXPECT them to treat me as such.

@Ryan_PA: Thanks for the Williams numbers! I always forget about them, as I've never ordered from them before.

 

[BigKahuna]

I will speak in favor of Midwest Supplies. That is where I got my first Kegging kit, they were easy to deal with and pretty fast shipping. They had a killer deal on it at the time too. I'd say that they are pretty much a good store to order from.


And they are the only ones that sent me a printed catalog! That's the bomb! My wireless doesn't work in the bathroom!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I realized after I'd gone ahead and ordered a pile from NB (a big pile to get the free ship deal - not bad on 91 lbs of stuff from MN to MA) that searching a little bit further things got a LOT cheaper for grain malt from north country malt - although their web ordering setup seems to be random as to working for me or not on any given day. But I'll get through the NB stuff and see if I've made the jump to AG or not really before I worry about it any more, and perhaps also see about making some local connections to split bags rather than try to store too much, too long.

North country does have great prices on their stocks, especially on bulk. Problem is that for many of us the shipping costs are either equal to or higher than the products. For me, it's actually cheaper to just go to the LHBS and get gouged than it is to pay the high shipping costs from NCM.

 

[jfrizzell]

My wireless doesn't work in the bathroom!

You need another router!

 

[chriswilkes33]

Nice work,
Its so nice to have one of the major guys as my LHBS. I happen to live about 10 minutes from AHS storefront. If it turns out that they are more expensive then I am more than willing to sacrifice the extra couple bucks per order for the great service and friendly atmosphere I have evry time I go in there. I have no idea who from the store posts on here and I dont know any of them by name, but I would be willing to bet any home brewer in the greater Austin area has no problem from them that isnt resolved quickly.

 

[LayMeister]

North Country Malt is a wholesaler and Northern Brewer is a retailer. There will be a price difference.

I don't understand this distinction. I thought anyone that sold direct to a consumer (me) was considered a retailer. A wholesaler is someone that sells to other retailers not direct to the consumer. In the the case of North Country Malt they are both since they sell wholesale to Retailers and have their own retail business as well. My understanding seems to be consistent with definitions that I can easily find with Google.

Paul

 

[chriswilkes33]

Basically saying AHS is a middleman and has no choice but to sell for more than they paid. Perhaps just mistaken semantics.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

North country does have great prices on their stocks, especially on bulk. Problem is that for many of us the shipping costs are either equal to or higher than the products. For me, it's actually cheaper to just go to the LHBS and get gouged than it is to pay the high shipping costs from NCM.

How are you getting gouged if it is cheaper? Anytime you order something that is inexpensive and heavy the freight will be much higher than the price of the product. It is too bad UPS doesn't charge by how much you paid for the item. That would be cool.

 

[BigKahuna]

It is too bad UPS doesn't charge by how much you paid for the item. That would be cool.

Screw That!

Do you know how much I spent with you last week....

 

[jkarp]

Interesting experiment. Frankly all those prices are close enough that customer service and geographical proximity becomes the deciding factors IMO.

 

[Rick500]

I've ordered from Northern Brewer, Midwest, and Austin Homebrew, and although I always do check them all for price comparisons for any given order, unless there's a dramatic difference I'll order from AHS because I've had good customer service experiences with them. (Haven't had bad service from the others, but AHS has gone the extra mile.)

Still, good study and good information to know.

 

[WBC]

This could help.

Look in my gallery to see this full size.

 

[Chriso]

Update: I added 2 more recipes to the Original Post. A Double-IPA, and an Imperial Stout.

Frankly all those prices are close enough that customer service and geographical proximity becomes the deciding factors IMO.

Those prices were fairly close, yes, but the data I've added today indicates that the price disparity increases based on the additional poundage added for "Imperial" or high-octane brews.

 

[faber]

This is an excellent experiment/study, Chriso!

Usually, I place two-recipe orders. That often will be a simple ol' reliable recipe (along the lines of the study here) and a funky Belgian or crazy doppelbock, etc. All have the goods for the former, only a few for all of the latter (you know how it is...there's always one ingredient or two that you suddenly just have to have )

Or if I'm also making an equipment purchase, that means Midwest--tough to beat their prices without going a la carte through eBay or the like.

But one thing I've learned from mail-order grain buying....all have a crappy grind. (Not part of this study, I know. I'm a low-tech AG guy, but I gotta get around to getting a mill one of these days...)

I found an LHBS near my father-in-law when I was visiting there and they were happy to ship to me and grind to request. Prices are cheap and they sell by the ounce. Their equipment prices are sky high, though. But if I just need ingredients, I don't think twice.

Maybe a follow-up study would be to price the same recipes from various non-macro mail-order places and just from LHBSs that ship, and then see what extra service they provide over the macro places.

One at a time.

This is a great comparison.

 

[ChrisKennedy]

The problem with your Morebeer comparisons is that shipping is free if you spend 60 bucks. So if you buy 2-3 kits at a time, you will decrease your per kit cost by the $11.56, which obviously makes a big difference.

 

[Chriso]

The problem with your Morebeer comparisons is that shipping is free if you spend 60 bucks. So if you buy 2-3 kits at a time, you will decrease your per kit cost by the $11.56, which obviously makes a big difference.

That's fine - if I can find the time, I want to start expanding this to buying 2 or 3 recipes at once. At this very moment, I'm looking at this from the perspective of a brewer who only buys one recipe, and doesn't know when his next brew will be, or what it will be. One day at a time, in other words.

And please note. We're taking individual, you-pick-the-grain recipes here, not boxed kits. That's for another thread.

Thanks for mentioning it, though, because I didn't know MoreBeer did it that way. I will be sure to pay attention to that once I start pricing out 2-recipes-at-once and further.

 

[ChrisKennedy]

Just a note underneath your guide stating the breaking points for free shipping where applicable would probably be enough to clue people in.

 

[Chriso]

Thanks for the idea, ChrisKennedy. Added a note on my intents to the original post.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

You should put the results in order of price or my favorite, alphabetical order by store.

Forrest

 

[cheeseshark]

This is really cool. I would look forward to seeing the 2-3 recipe comparison.