Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

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I think that's just your experience with bad homemade syrup. A lot of people have successfully made it. My homemade syrup comes out great. It's different than the commercial stuff, but I wouldn't call one better than the other. It's a little harder to find nowadays, but I really like D2 syrup. It has a unique flavor as well that I find to be smoother. In Europe there are several different candi syrup products available, so we are not using the authentic ingredient anyway.

I was just sharing that you can make it at home. I don't really get the attitude...many people would consider spending 5+ hours brewing beer a pain too when you can just go to the liquor store.
 
orangehero said:
I think that's just your experience with bad homemade syrup. A lot of people have successfully made it. My homemade syrup comes out great. It's different than the commercial stuff, but I wouldn't call one better than the other. Personally I prefer D2 for commercial syrup, and it has a unique flavor as well. I find it has a smoother flavor. In Europe there are several different candi syrup products available, so we are not using the authentic ingredient anyway.

I was just sharing that you can make it at home. I don't really get the attitude...many people would consider spending 5+ hours brewing beer a pain too when you can just go to the liquor store.
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I think I get it. 'bad homemade syrup' becomes more expensive when you combine it with $30 worth of premium grain and hops + 5 hours :)
 
Thanks CSI. After reading into this LENGTHY thread I found your inserts about developing and marketing your product. I want to apologize for not doing so more promptly. I initially thought you were some crime show junky by your forum name (Example ...CSI Miami).
I only read this thing in the morning before work...so reading a 150 page thread at 5 am isn't first on my list.

I am going to do some more reading on this recipe as I am on page 35 now. Unless someone wants to give me the foot notes on this recipe!:rockin:

as far as syrup goes...I will buy yours. I am too damn busy to add one more this to my list to make/cook. I will be placing another order with Midwest Supplies in a bit. I will bet some then.

Until then...any advice on this is welcomed.
 
gwapogorilla said:
Thanks CSI. After reading into this LENGTHY thread I found your inserts about developing and marketing your product. I want to apologize for not doing so more promptly. I initially thought you were some crime show junky by your forum name (Example ...CSI Miami).
I only read this thing in the morning before work...so reading a 150 page thread at 5 am isn't first on my list.

I am going to do some more reading on this recipe as I am on page 35 now. Unless someone wants to give me the foot notes on this recipe!:rockin:

as far as syrup goes...I will buy yours. I am too damn busy to add one more this to my list to make/cook. I will be placing another order with Midwest Supplies in a bit. I will bet some then.

Until then...any advice on this is welcomed.
Click to expand...

You won't regret buying it. Its really good stuff
 
I've used CSI products on two recipes so far, and about to on a third, it is easily worth the price. More power to those that want to DIY a candy syrup, it may be fantastic, it may not be. The difference is your guaranteed a fantastic product when you buy CSI products. So if its price, then do not fret and go with CSI, if its just because you enjoy doing DIY, then do DIY, but I do recommend trying the commercial product to compare and see how amazing it is.
 
Oophaga said:
I More power to those that want to DIY a candy syrup, it may be fantastic, it may not be. The difference is your guaranteed a fantastic product when you buy CSI products. S
Click to expand...

I find this argument funny on a forum for brewing your own beer.

Btw, I happen to agree with you as I've used CSI's syrup bc I can't be bothered making it myself (even though I'll spend hours making the beer)
 
Oophaga said:
I've used CSI products on two recipes so far, and about to on a third, it is easily worth the price. More power to those that want to DIY a candy syrup, it may be fantastic, it may not be. The difference is your guaranteed a fantastic product when you buy CSI products. So if its price, then do not fret and go with CSI, if its just because you enjoy doing DIY, then do DIY, but I do recommend trying the commercial product to compare and see how amazing it is.
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Allrighty then. Not sure if I enjoyed making the amber candy syrup from C&H, but can say it cost me $2.50 for 2 1/2 lbs. Second attempt, heated to 285 F, covered, let sit in 300 F oven an hour.

I would have bought D2 syrup, if my homebrew store had any. But at $7.75/lb. for belgian dark rock candy, I could only imagine DIY would turn out better at one tenth the price, and easier to work with. Pour it in and watch it superboil in a volcano. Stand back.

I will look into this CSI stuff. You guys are pushing it pretty hard.
 
bethebrew said:
Allrighty then. Not sure if I enjoyed making the amber candy syrup from C&H, but can say it cost me $2.50 for 2 1/2 lbs. Second attempt, heated to 285 F, covered, let sit in 300 F oven an hour.

I would have bought D2 syrup, if my homebrew store had any. But at $7.75/lb. for belgian dark rock candy, I could only imagine DIY would turn out better at one tenth the price, and easier to work with. Pour it in and watch it superboil in a volcano. Stand back.

I will look into this CSI stuff. You guys are pushing it pretty hard.
Click to expand...

It comes in a liquid form in pouches and goes right in at the end of the boil. No fuss, no mess :) Also, just as a side note, the lighter syrup is indeed awesome as a substitute for maple syrup on waffles. Probably the best breakfast I've had in a long, long time!
 
wobrien said:
I find this argument funny on a forum for brewing your own beer.
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I wasn't arguing at all, I was simply saying to compare the products and know its a great one, I said you can probably make great homemade syrups, but you should still see what these are like is all. I still drink commercial beer even though I home brew. Not nearly as often as I would otherwise though. Just joining the conversation.
 
Oophaga said:
I wasn't arguing at all, I was simply saying to compare the products and know its a great one, I said you can probably make great homemade syrups, but you should still see what these are like is all. I still drink commercial beer even though I home brew. Not nearly as often as I would otherwise though. Just joining the conversation.
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I know what you were saying and was afraid my statement might be taken the wrong way. I just find it ironic bc most non-brewers could say the same thing about beer. "Why brew your own, it could turn out fantastic, but if you buy a [insert good commercial beer here] you know it will be good."

No disrespect meant.
 
CSI, I'm pretty new to this hobby, so my set up is pretty simple and limited. I wouldn't be able to use fresh krausen yeast to carb my bottles. However, I could harvest krausen while the Westy 12 is fermenting and freeze it until needed. Any Idea what kind of a yeast count you need when priming?

Also, you stated to use 180 grams of syrup...what carbing volume does this give?

I have loaded up the latest recipe to my Beersmith, and it calculates the color at 35 SRM. Is this going to be too dark? Also, I used my past and proven efficiency numbers...had to scale back the amount of grains to 9 lbs 12 oz Pilsen malt and 3 lbs 4 oz pale malt and 3 lbs D-180 to hit your numbers. See any troubles ahead of me with those figures? That is quite a big adjustment!
Or does the decoction drop the efficiency numbers...so I need to stay closer to your numbers?
 
wobrien said:
I find this argument funny on a forum for brewing your own beer.

Btw, I happen to agree with you as I've used CSI's syrup bc I can't be bothered making it myself (even though I'll spend hours making the beer)
Click to expand...

I generally do not malt my own barley or make my own stainless jacketed fermentors for the very same reason...
 
gwapogorilla said:
CSI, I'm pretty new to this hobby, so my set up is pretty simple and limited. I wouldn't be able to use fresh krausen yeast to carb my bottles. However, I could harvest krausen while the Westy 12 is fermenting and freeze it until needed. Any Idea what kind of a yeast count you need when priming?

Also, you stated to use 180 grams of syrup...what carbing volume does this give?

I have loaded up the latest recipe to my Beersmith, and it calculates the color at 35 SRM. Is this going to be too dark? Also, I used my past and proven efficiency numbers...had to scale back the amount of grains to 9 lbs 12 oz Pilsen malt and 3 lbs 4 oz pale malt and 3 lbs D-180 to hit your numbers. See any troubles ahead of me with those figures?
Click to expand...

The numbers look good for a BHE of about 82%. The initial SRM will be dark but as it bottle ages the SRM will come into line.

We have a doc on priming using Candi Syrups here:
http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/candi_syrup_priming.pdf

....and a pitch rate doc here (very key to hitting your FG numbers):
http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/belgian_ale_pitching_rates.pdf
 
Chatting about who has the best stove-top syrup every year in October is great fun, (sugar+acid+DAP, ad infinitum, ad nauseum), but let's move on to brewing the Westvleteren 12. There is a Candi Syrup thread for this so as not to clog up this board:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/making-belgian-candi-syrup-83604/

That being said...let's get down to the brewing...it's October after all.

On our last two afternoon reviews of the Westvleteren 12 import here at CSI we noticed a distinct lack of Pale malt, (this is a change from 2 years ago). In response, we're changing our clone for next year's bottling to adapt to what we believe is a change at St. Sixtus. If anyone has had the same experience, I would be interested in hearing it.

To test this apparent change we're requesting 5 brew partners to join this new recipe branch test. Feel free to check in and request to be one of the brew partners at:

http://www.candisyrup.com/general-contact-form.html

Let us know what your equipment capability is. Cheers. AJ
 
CSI said:
The numbers look good for a BHE of about 82%. The initial SRM will be dark but as it bottle ages the SRM will come into line.
Click to expand...

Thanks CSI. My BHE eff seems to be 77% while my mash eff is around 85%(I have my monster mill at a tight .028" gap setting)
If I adjust my SG scale straight down across the board, it will decrease both malts, the syrup AND the hops to try to keep balance.
I think I will do this as it lands all color, gravities and the IBU almost spot on with what is posted on your web site.

Thanks for posting all of the links too...also very helpful!:mug:
 
gwapogorilla said:
Thanks CSI. My BHE eff seems to be 77% while my mash eff is around 85%(I have my monster mill at a tight .028" gap setting)
If I adjust my SG scale straight down across the board, it will decrease both malts, the syrup AND the hops to try to keep balance.
I think I will do this as it lands all color, gravities and the IBU almost spot on with what is posted on your web site.

Thanks for posting all of the links too...also very helpful!:mug:
Click to expand...

My pleasure. For the Westy 12 we grind at .0320...maybe a little coarse in the opinion of some but I've noticed it cuts down on husk dusting and some of the astringency, (low astringency matches the style well :) )
 
Thanks for all of the input and research on this thread. I took second in my category in my first competition and the beer has only been in the bottle for 3 months.

Thanks everyone and I'm already planning on brewing this again!
 
CSI said:
To test this apparent change we're requesting 5 brew partners to join this new recipe branch test. Feel free to check in and request to be one of the brew partners at:

Let us know what your equipment capability is. Cheers. AJ
Click to expand...

All slots for the new Westvleteren 12 brew partners at CSI have been filled. We should have a great report once we get started and begin testing.

The CSI testing of this clone effort will include a formal report on parallel adjunct quality testing for next year's discussion. We did this internally during product development almost 5 years ago but this one will be published to this thread, (to demonstrate ingredient QC).
 
Regarding CSI's product, I have also used it several times now and think it is fantastic. I used it in this recipe (well really, I used the CSI recipe) and the result was phenomenal. Many people said it was the best beer they have ever had. Maybe the stars just aligned, but I think what was brewed was extremely repeatable.
 
CSI said:
this one will be published to this thread.
Click to expand...

Why this thread? Your recipe differences and other contributions to the knowledge are greatly appreciated but isn't this an offshoot discussion/topic? Seems like an event worthy of its own thread. This thread is already a massive sprawling beast without summary, FAQ, or any organization really.
 
Hanso said:
Why this thread? Your recipe differences and other contributions to the knowledge are greatly appreciated but isn't this an offshoot discussion/topic? Seems like an event worthy of its own thread. This thread is already a massive sprawling beast without summary, FAQ, or any organization really.
Click to expand...
I have to agree. CSI, could you start a new thread. Saq worked pretty hard on his recipe, and I myself feel guilty about getting off topic of his thread.
 
Hanso said:
Why this thread? Your recipe differences and other contributions to the knowledge are greatly appreciated but isn't this an offshoot discussion/topic? Seems like an event worthy of its own thread. This thread is already a massive sprawling beast without summary, FAQ, or any organization really.
Click to expand...

Not really. Brew-testing the Westy 12 clone to perfect it *is* the theme of this thread. Branching it would only create a duplicate. Evolving variations is how Aaron (saq) and the four originally designed this thread to progress. Since we know Aaron personally, I can say that evolving this recipe was his intent and brew testing was the means to that end.

There is no better way to focus this thread than by posting comparative brewing results using the simplest but highest possible quality ingredients. This is the Trappist method. This is also about great ale and how it is achieved. With due respect, I do not think side-barring or any other form of censorship really has much of place here.
 
gwapogorilla said:
I have to agree. CSI, could you start a new thread. Saq worked pretty hard on his recipe, and I myself feel guilty about getting off topic of his thread.
Click to expand...

Since we know Aaron (saq), personally, I can say that evolving this recipe was his intent. Branching this thread would only create a duplicate as I mentioned to Hanso earlier. Evolving variations is how Aaron and the four originally designed this thread to progress. It is about using the best ingredients and method to perfect a world class ale. It is *not* about DYO barley malting, making equipment, or making confections. It is about *selecting* equipment, ingredients, and method to achieve a fine ale and improving it as a community.

Posting comparative brewing results is a means toward sharing an extraordinary ale in simpler and simpler fashion with better and better quality ingredients. This is the Trappist method and I personally like to share this with others, (as I do on this board). The pursuit of perfection is about community effort in trialing the best methods and ingredients. With due respect, I think side-barring brewing results or any form of censorship is not beneficial to this thread. Most of the board members here share a sense of community and welcome one another's input. As a poster here for 3 years I would certainly welcome objectivity and openness concerning brewing results.
 
CSI said:
Since we know Aaron (saq), personally, I can say that evolving this recipe was his intent. Branching this thread would only create a duplicate as I mentioned to Hanso earlier. Evolving variations is how Aaron and the four originally designed this thread to progress. It is about using the best ingredients and method to perfect a world class ale. It is *not* about malting, making equipment, or making confections....it is about selecting equipment, ingredients, and method to achieve a fine ale.

Posting comparative brewing results is a means toward sharing an extraordinary ale in simpler and simpler fashion with better and better quality ingredients. This is the Trappist method and I personally like to share this with others. The pursuit of perfection is about community effort in trialing the best methods and ingredients. With due respect, I think side-barring brewing results or any form of censorship is not beneficial to this thread. Most of the board members here share a sense of community and welcome one another's input. As a poster here for 3 years I would certainly welcome your greater objectivity and openness.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you CSI, lets keep it all in one place and make the best beer possible. However, gwapogorilla did have a good point though about one thing and that is that there isn't much organization and its kind of hard to find info in this massive thread now. It would be amazing if Saq or one of the mods could edit the original post and point to some of the highlights of Saq's work and your work as well as some of the hot topics and FAQs.
 
CSI said:
Since we know Aaron (saq), personally, I can say that evolving this recipe was his intent. Branching this thread would only create a duplicate as I mentioned to Hanso earlier. Evolving variations is how Aaron and the four originally designed this thread to progress. It is about using the best ingredients and method to perfect a world class ale. It is *not* about malting, making equipment, or making confections....it is about selecting equipment, ingredients, and method to achieve a fine ale.

Posting comparative brewing results is a means toward sharing an extraordinary ale in simpler and simpler fashion with better and better quality ingredients. This is the Trappist method and I personally like to share this with others. The pursuit of perfection is about community effort in trialing the best methods and ingredients. With due respect, I think side-barring brewing results or any form of censorship is not beneficial to this thread. Most of the board members here share a sense of community and welcome one another's input. As a poster here for 3 years I would certainly welcome your greater objectivity and openness.
Click to expand...
If saq is okay with it...fine. I din't realize it was his intent to have the recipe/thread evolve the way it did.
Just trying to show some respect for the thread starter by not hijacking his thread is all.
 
No problem. Thanks for the update. Here's the link to the doc as-is for priming this ale with Candi Syrups:

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/candi_syrup_priming.pdf

Tried it as-is with all the main browsers and 2 portable devices/pads and it seems to be working ok. [you may try refreshing the pdf load page or downloading the actual doc and loading it on the desktop]
 
Yes please please please, keep the original post on page 1 edited to reflect new recipie changes and developments.... mark them chronologically if you like. This thread is a behemoth and while enjoying the banter, quite frankly it's daunting to find exactly what you're looking for in large conversations.
 
Is this recipe bottled with candi sugar ? About to bottle mine was just going to use regular sugar. Then notice a few threads talk about bottling w candi sugar
 
brianm317 said:
For the traditional recipe, how long should I boil the decoction prior to adding it back into the main mash?
Click to expand...

I boiled enough to raise the temp to the next rest, but in tasting the beer at bottling, I should have boiled a bit longer (5-10min) because it seemed a bit thin in mouthfeel. I am by no means a double decoct expert, in the interest of full disclosure.
Good Luck!
 
brianm317 said:
For the traditional recipe, how long should I boil the decoction prior to adding it back into the main mash?
Click to expand...

There is a good decoction doc at the top of the page here:
http://www.candisyrup.com/help-docs.html

Here's the actual pdf link:
http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/csi_doc_-_single_decoction_update.pdf

It has a footnote on the Westy 12 decoction and a sentence or two on decoction boil timing toward the end. Saq also has a method of boiling down vorlaufed wort as a form of decoction. It is somewhere in this massive thread :)
 

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