Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

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solbes said:
Not so sure about the pure oxygen. I've done many beers in the 8.5-12% ABV range and have never used oxygen. I do shake the crap out of them at the lower pitching temps (more O2 can be absorbed at lower temps), and also give my friends a healthy dose of yeast nutrient. But I have yet to have a stuck ferment or one that didn't go as low as I wanted.

All that said, I should try pure oxygen on some batches to see how it might contrast. Never really know until you try it yourself.
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You can get away brewing high ABV beers with the shake and pray method, and most times if you pitch enough yeast you will not get a stuck ferment.

My comment was more geared towards increasing the quality of the final product. Pure O2 will provide oxygen levels that shaking or an air pump will never attain...and the impact on the final beer is startling.
 
Wow, we brewed a large batch of the pious traditional (intended on doing a 30g batch) and pitched a massive starter ~8g. We did a single infusion mash at 150 with no recirculation and missed our desired gravity by about 20 points. This beer fermented down to 1.012 within four-five days and then down to 1.008 three days after I added another 6lbs D2 to the fermenter. This beer is amazing and it's still so young. We ended up yielding 35g and will bottle at least 20 of it. Thank you so much for the thread. We'll get better conversion next time with step mashing and recirc but I love this beer! Thanks again!
 
BeerMeDuffMan said:
Its been almost two weeks since I've added the new champagne yeast to kick start the stuck fermentation. With any luck I'm at a decent level and not the overly sweet 1.031 and I could bottle in a few weeks.
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Well I could be in your boat too, as I have yet to take a gravity reading.... but 3787 has been kind to me in the past. We'll see
 
I just racked off to secondary today after brewing the Old World double decoct, on Sept 22, 2013. I missed the Saq amendment that all of the Candi was to be added before cooling to the primary. i added the third lb to the secondary. Prior to syrup addition, Corrected grav was 1.024 today and there was still lots of activity.

I started my temp at 63-65 when I pitched and the wyyeast 3787 was going nicely, I then raised the temp over 5 days to 74-76 and it is held there for the last 3 days, and I have the temp held at 72-76 now in the secondary. I think that it should all work out. Thanks to all have made this thread awesome, so much good info!!

Cheers,
Ashley
 
What yeast would anyone recommend who have bottled to use when bottling. I don't have any of the original yeast nor want to buy a pack just to rehydrate for bottling. Hoping to just use a dry yeast.
 
orangemen5 said:
What yeast would anyone recommend who have bottled to use when bottling. I don't have any of the original yeast nor want to buy a pack just to rehydrate for bottling. Hoping to just use a dry yeast.
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I don't remember the brand, but it was a cask conditioning dry yeast. I used half the pack without rehydrating and it worked perfectly. It took about two months, but you want to wait longer than that anyway, so it wasn't a problem.
 
orangemen5 said:
What yeast would anyone recommend who have bottled to use when bottling. I don't have any of the original yeast nor want to buy a pack just to rehydrate for bottling. Hoping to just use a dry yeast.
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I always use EC-1118 for all my high ABV bottle conditioning. I've carbed 16% ABV IPAs this way, and it's cheap. Also, you don't have to worry about it attenuating because the champagne yeast really only likes to work on simple sugars.
 
just brewed a 2g batch using the old world recipe. i used amber candi sugar crystals and i can tell my color will be off.

i might sub some D2 syrup for the amber crystals for my mid-fermentation sugar addition to get some color back.
 
Has anyone had luck carbonating this without adding fresh yeast at bottling? I gave my batch a rest in secondary for 1 week @ 55 F before bottling, could this have put the already stress yeast to sleep in such a high ABV (10.3%) environment? I bottled with clear candi syrup and let it sit at room temp for 3 weeks. I opened up a bottle to check on carbonation and was greeted with a barely audible *pufff* and a sweet/flat beer. Now it did hiss a LITTLE so there was some yeast in the bottle that was still active and eating the sugar.

My question is: do I let them sit and hope it will carbonate before the yeast poop out? Or do I open each bottle up, add some dry yeast, and risk oxidation?

And my lesson learned from this: always add yeast at bottling for high abv brews. Better safe than sorry.
 
I'm sure they'll carb up, it'll just take a lot longer than normal. It could take 6 weeks, but you have to let this beer age anyway. I'd let it go as is.
 
Yea man let it roll as is. If you add more yeast you are inviting possible bottle bombs, gushers, infection etc. Time is definitely your friend with this brew.
 
I've got lots of german pilsner malt on hand. In doing the traditional / csi version is that (german pils instead of belgian pils) along with the belgian pale malt going to put the flavor too far off? Or will there be too much going on to be noticed?
 
bdgrfrisch said:
I've got lots of german pilsner malt on hand. In doing the traditional / csi version is that (german pils instead of belgian pils) along with the belgian pale malt going to put the flavor too far off? Or will there be too much going on to be noticed?
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You'd be a better man than I to distinguish between different European Pils malt styles. I say go for it.
 
That was my thought as well.

But I did email Candi Syrup regarding their recipe and they must have really honed their tasting skills as this was their response -
"From our testing we can tell the difference between say Weyermann Pils and Castle or Dingeman's Pils. That being said, the German Pils results in a slightly more bready flavor that lends well to the Westy 12 clone."

I'm pretty sure I'd never know the difference anyway - not without having a bunch of each version to do side by side - so german pils the direction I'm going.
 
CSI,

I was wondering if you could answer a question for me. I brewed 10 gallons of the Pious and hit all my numbers but the taste is pretty bland, it just sweet and boozy. Should I be tasting some of the stone fruit and or quad flavors now or does that all develop later?

Second question, after fermentation finished I put it in a whiskey barrel, after I get the flavor I want from the barrel should I bottle or bulk age?

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide,
Brewbien

Cheers!
 
How critical is it to get the secondary down to 50F right after you add the 3rd # of sugar? I transferred only to find that I had an electrical issue on my fermentation chamber, but should be fixed in a couple days.
 
Brewbien said:
CSI,

I was wondering if you could answer a question for me. I brewed 10 gallons of the Pious and hit all my numbers but the taste is pretty bland, it just sweet and boozy. Should I be tasting some of the stone fruit and or quad flavors now or does that all develop later?

Second question, after fermentation finished I put it in a whiskey barrel, after I get the flavor I want from the barrel should I bottle or bulk age?

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide,
Brewbien

Cheers!
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Over the past 3 years we've had a couple of those as well. It's usually due to an over-pitch combined with a too-rapid fermentation, high primary temps, etc. The rapid fermentation has less time to produce the plummy esters.


[edit] also, since the recipe you are using is saq's Pious, you may wish to post an IM to him directly or to the board for his input. He is a very gifted brewer.
 
mine just finished up after 6 days, with two at 82F . took 1.096 wort down to 1.008, pretty impressive. I added 1lb of D-180 prior to ramping up the temp. i think the color is spot on now.

the hydro sample tasted okay, fruity but dry. i can tell this one needs some age and carbonation.

gonna be a loong 6 months.

thanks for the recipe CSI!
 
BeerMeDuffMan said:
Yea man let it roll as is. If you add more yeast you are inviting possible bottle bombs, gushers, infection etc. Time is definitely your friend with this brew.
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As stated above, if you use a wine yeast to bottle condition, it can only ferment simple sugars and not the residual sugars in the beer.
 
butterpants said:
Is 6mo the average ageing period people are giving theirs?
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I just sampled some of the 2013 trials (bottled in early February). 6 months is probably a little young. 8 months+ is bare minimum to begin seeing some of the flavors peak...but just an opinion.

In fact I'm just finishing one now, (a 017x brew with just 2 malts and D-180). It is very plummy, very malty, 1.011 finished gravity, and has a subtle luscious finish of caramel from the D-180, ...and...it's gone... (grainy pic below) :)

We've completed 3 years of trials on the Westvleteren 12 clone following the BLAM 2-malt spec. We're now going to begin the 2.0 trials of this clone using only 1 malt (Belgian Pils), decocted, with D-180. We'll hopefully be able to join at least 5 brew-partners for the 2.0 Westy clone trials this brewing season.

Cheers,

AJ

Empty Westy 12.jpg
 
CSI said:
I just sampled some of the 2013 trials (bottled in early February). 6 months is probably a little young. 8 months+ is bare minimum to begin seeing some of the flavors peak...but just an opinion.

In fact I'm just finishing one now, (a 017x brew with just 2 malts and D-180). It is very plummy, very malty, with a subtle luscious complex caramel from the D-180, and yep, it's gone... :)

We've completed 3 years of trial brews on the Westvleteren 12 clone following the BLAM 2-malt spec. We're now going to begin the 2.0 trials of this clone using only 1 malt, decocted, with D-180. We hope the Trappists will agree.

We will be requesting 5 trial 'brew-partners' to work alongside in beginning this 2.0 stage of the clone trials.

Cheers,

AJ
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Excellent thanks AJ. Quick question, was your Rochefort 10 clone recipie derived with the same stringent methods? Only saw it quick on the candi syrup list and thinking of giving it a go.
 
butterpants said:
Excellent thanks AJ. Quick question, was your Rochefort 10 clone recipie derived with the same stringent methods? Only saw it quick on the candi syrup list and thinking of giving it a go.
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The base recipes start with BLAM then it's more deductive with comparative tasting(s) for changes in method and ingredients. We've only trialed the Roch 10 about 8 times. I am a big fan of the Rochefort 10. It's more fruity than the Westy 12 and a little sweeter, almost Cherry-like with the high ABV perfectly hidden... a really, really nice quad.

One thing we take away after a long trial is that the Belgian imports appear to be using very few malts and very simple, (but high quality), ingredients...even simpler than what is listed in BLAM in some cases.
 
CSI said:
Yes, the base recipe always starts with BLAM then it's mainly deductive after that using taste tests here with the actual import as a guide to make method and ingredient changes. In almost every case so far we find that the grain bill gets Simpler. We haven't trialed the Roch 10 nearly as much as the Westy 12 clone. I think it's been through 7 or 8 adjustments but the Westy clone has been through over 30.

I am a big fan of the Rochefort 10 and am looking forward to getting back to it this season. It's a lot more fruity than the Westy 12 and a little sweeter, almost Cherry-like with the high ABV perfectly hidden... a really, really nice quad.
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Awesome.... and I agree, could be my favorite of all time. The dark fruit in it is amazing. Can't wait to have 5 gallons on hand that isn't dispensed in 12oz/8$ increments!
 
CSI...what type of candi are you using? I have limited availability in my area, so I will probably have to mail order. Do you use syrup? Solid? Brand?

Thanks!:mug:

EDIT....Also, my efficiencies are higher than the recipe states. So, if I use the same amounts shown, my starting gravity is around 1.015. If I drop the 2 grains down by a lb. each, I am pretty close to the ball park. Will that effect my flavors at all?
 
gwapogorilla said:
CSI...what type of candi are you using? I have limited availability in my area, so I will probably have to mail order. Do you use syrup? Solid? Brand?

Thanks!:mug:

EDIT....Also, my efficiencies are higher than the recipe states. So, if I use the same amounts shown, my starting gravity is around 1.015. If I drop the 2 grains down by a lb. each, I am pretty close to the ball park. Will that effect my flavors at all?
Click to expand...

Good questions. The adjunct type will depend on the recipe but we usually use candi syrup as a first choice. The syrups will always impart the most flavor. We generally avoid the rock candi, (at least the import stuff sold here in the US). Soft sugars, (Cassonade), are easier to handle in larger craft bbl batches and it will impart many of the same flavors as the candi syrups but to a lesser degree. I have used direct imports, Belgogluc, Kandij Siroop, and the US imported adjuncts during early trials but we use Candi Syrup, Inc. syrups and cassonade exclusively at this stage :). Apocalypse Brewery in Virginia recently won the 2013 international 1st place in the Belgian Dubbel category. They used D-180 from Candi Syrup, Inc.

Higher efficiency will probably require prorating your grain bill. Our BHE is normally 78% on the Westy 12. Higher ABV's will change the way ale ages over time...but I've never noticed that being a bad thing unless it's too fusel.
 
gwapogorilla said:
CSI...what type of candi are you using? I have limited availability in my area, so I will probably have to mail order. Do you use syrup? Solid? Brand?
Click to expand...

This is a joke, right?
 
CSI said:
Good questions. The adjunct type will depend on the recipe but we usually use candi syrup as a first choice. The syrups will always impart the most flavor. We generally avoid the rock candi, (at least the import stuff sold here in the US). Soft sugars, (Cassonade), are easier to handle in larger craft bbl batches and it will impart many of the same flavors as the candi syrups but to a lesser degree. I have used direct imports, Belgogluc, Kandij Siroop, and the US imported adjuncts during early trials but we use Candi Syrup, Inc. syrups and cassonade exclusively at this stage :). Apocalypse Brewery in Virginia recently won the 2013 international 1st place in the Belgian Dubbel category. They used D-180 from Candi Syrup, Inc.

Higher efficiency will probably require prorating your grain bill. Our BHE is normally 78% on the Westy 12. Higher ABV's will change the way ale ages over time...but I've never noticed that being a bad thing unless it's too fusel.
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Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate the"do this..and this is why" type of answers.
Cheers:mug:
 
CSI said:
CSI stands for Candi Syrup, Inc. (bot not everybody knows that)...a Q & A truism of sorts :)
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I DID NOT know that. So THAT'S why my question was perceived as dumb.:smack::D:D:D Man, I was starting to get a real tude going. LOL

Hey, maybe you can give me info as to shelf life of candi syrup. I was on a trip to Minneapolis this weekend and stopped at Northern Brewer store. I saw "candi syrup" on display, but saw no expropriation date on the package. What is the self life? Can it be frozen to help preserve the sugars?
 
 
gwapogorilla said:
I DID NOT know that. So THAT'S why my question was perceived as dumb.:smack::D:D:D Man, I was starting to get a real tude going. LOL

Hey, maybe you can give me info as to shelf life of candi syrup. I was on a trip to Minneapolis this weekend and stopped at Northern Brewer store. I saw "candi syrup" on display, but saw no expropriation date on the package. What is the self life? Can it be frozen to help preserve the sugars?
Click to expand...

Midwest Supplies stocks some of Candi Sugar Inc's product in Minneapolis. [Edit] Looks like Northern Brewer does too based on their webpage. The Simplicity, Golden, D90 & D180 are excellent products I've gotten to brew with, I'm sure the rest are too.
 

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