The mystery of Galaxy hops and harshness

[beervoid]

I've done my 6th brew with Galaxy. 3 beers with 2016 and 3 with 2017. Alle NEIPA style.
2017 was particularly bad for me.
5 beers where up to 3 oz of galaxy paired with either mosaic or citra or both.
I tried one single hop Galaxy.

All of the above where very harsh tasting. Even a 3 week coldcrash at 1c didn't help.
The single hop Galaxy one was really extremely harsh up to the point I thought my yeast was bad or something similar. I think I left it in the keg for 2 months and finally dumped it... wrote it off as an infection.. (biofine and the likes are not available here)

I'm talking major hopburn and astringent flavors.. I can taste a little bit of tropical trying to come through but it never does...
I've played around with the malt bill to find out if perhaps something is keeping these hops in suspension...
All the other hop combo's I've tried are usually drinkable 3 days post cold crashing...

What is your experience with Galaxy? Which year?
How much OZ do you usually use of it?
Did you ever try a single hop Galaxy NEIPA?

I've still got half a KG of 2017 lying around and im very hesitant to use them. They smell great!

I want to believe in Galaxy!

 

[SanPancho]

Careful with ph. Big hop charges (neipa style) can have a big impact. Harsh. Astringent. Etc.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I've used lots of galaxy - it's grown close to where I leave and I've been given large amounts of it at different times. It's know for being very tropical (think passionfruit) when it's fresh and works well, but is also notorious for becoming very grassy and harsh. Keep dry hopping to a day or two at most - long dry hopping seems to exaggerate the grassiness. I prefer using it in the boil for 10 to 20 minutes - lots of fruit comes across this way. Also, it doesn't (IME) store well.

 

[beervoid]

Careful with ph. Big hop charges (neipa style) can have a big impact. Harsh. Astringent. Etc.

I got a proper ph meter just for this. Its not a ph problem as I aim for 5.0 KO and also adjust down before dry hopping if neccesary.
Only my galaxy beers where problematic.

 

[beervoid]

I've used lots of galaxy - it's grown close to where I leave and I've been given large amounts of it at different times. It's know for being very tropical (think passionfruit) when it's fresh and works well, but is also notorious for becoming very grassy and harsh. Keep dry hopping to a day or two at most - long dry hopping seems to exaggerate the grassiness. I prefer using it in the boil for 10 to 20 minutes - lots of fruit comes across this way. Also, it doesn't (IME) store well.

Ive had a double dryhopped galaxy ipa from Trillium it was amazing. Really makes me think the best galaxy lots are going to the big brewers.
Im not giving up just yet, got some 2018 coming my way.

 

[thehaze]

I've used Galaxy and have not experienced harshness, but there are so many things that can result in harshness: mash pH, boil pH, freshness or lack of, when it is used and how much. I don't boil Galaxy. All whirlpools are done at 155-158F for 20-25 minutes and dry hopping duration - for all beers - is max. 48-60 hours. I don't cold crash and get no harshness. Whatever harshness, chackiness I might get, it's from the water treatment.

I've never done a single hop Galaxy, but I will. My latest IPA had 7.1 oz Citra 2017, 7.1 oz Galaxy 2018 and 3.5 oz Motueka 2017. I've also used Galaxy 2017 and didn't get any harshness.

 

[beervoid]

I've used Galaxy and have not experienced harshness, but there are so many things that can result in harshness: mash pH, boil pH, freshness or lack of, when it is used and how much. I don't boil Galaxy. All whirlpools are done at 155-158F for 20-25 minutes and dry hopping duration - for all beers - is max. 48-60 hours. I don't cold crash and get no harshness. Whatever harshness, chackiness I might get, it's from the water treatment.

I've never done a single hop Galaxy, but I will. My latest IPA had 7.1 oz Citra 2017, 7.1 oz Galaxy 2018 and 3.5 oz Motueka 2017. I've also used Galaxy 2017 and didn't get any harshness.

I shouldnt have any water problems, I build my own water from RO. Ive tried different amounts of minerals and never experienced problems and suppose that if my water is off then all my other neipas should turn bad as well.

Maybe I was really unlucky with my batches of galaxy.

 

[thehaze]

Maybe you were just unlucky with your Galaxy. Try other sources or other approach towards using Galaxy.

 

[beervoid]

Maybe you were just unlucky with your Galaxy. Try other sources or other approach towards using Galaxy.

Yeah next brew will be 1oz and then ramp it up see how it goes

 

[couchsending]

Are you dry hopping during fermentation? Using lots of wheat and oats?

Galaxy is very high in polyphenols, which is what causes the harsh finish and burn.

I use galaxy a fair amount and don’t get any harshness or burn from it.

I use it in the boil, whirlpool, and dryhop.

I don’t use any high protein adjuncts or dry hop during fermentation and usually dry hop for around 2-4 days after removing the yeast. Usually around 60*. You definitely don’t need as much of it, it’s inctedibly potent.

The stuff I have smells like tropical candy. Still using some 2017 from yvh.

It’s just a different hop that needs to be treated in a certain way to maximize its qualities.

 

[hopjuice_71]

Are you dry hopping during fermentation? Using lots of wheat and oats?

Galaxy is very high in polyphenols, which is what causes the harsh finish and burn.

I use galaxy a fair amount and don’t get any harshness or burn from it.

I use it in the boil, whirlpool, and dryhop.

I don’t use any high protein adjuncts or dry hop during fermentation and usually dry hop for around 2-4 days after removing the yeast. Usually around 60*. You definitely don’t need as much of it, it’s inctedibly potent.

The stuff I have smells like tropical candy. Still using some 2017 from yvh.

It’s just a different hop that needs to be treated in a certain way to maximize its qualities.

This is really interesting. I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on this a bit? I have used galaxy a few times in IPAs. I always get outstanding and delicious aromas, but it has come across with various amounts of harshness, which made me shy away from it a bit. I never have this issue with other hops. I now have a pound of galaxy in the freezer to use and I would like to maximize its use, probably mostly in IPAs.

 

[leesmith]

I tried one single hop Galaxy.

Can you post the recipe and process?

 

[thehaze]

couchsending is actually touching some good points, which again, coincide with some of the things I do.

I too don't use oats, wheat, etc. My latest IPA - mentioned above - only used 75% Lager malt and 25% Best Ale malt ( both from Crisp ). No harshness whatsoever and i dry hopped with 3.5 oz each of Galaxy and Citra and 1.75 oz Motueka.

 

[beervoid]

Are you dry hopping during fermentation? Using lots of wheat and oats?

Galaxy is very high in polyphenols, which is what causes the harsh finish and burn.

I use galaxy a fair amount and don’t get any harshness or burn from it.

I use it in the boil, whirlpool, and dryhop.

I don’t use any high protein adjuncts or dry hop during fermentation and usually dry hop for around 2-4 days after removing the yeast. Usually around 60*. You definitely don’t need as much of it, it’s inctedibly potent.

The stuff I have smells like tropical candy. Still using some 2017 from yvh.

It’s just a different hop that needs to be treated in a certain way to maximize its qualities.

I did play with the amounts of wheat and oat additions. I would have to look back into my recipes what exactly i've tried but I believe the haze/protein/polyphenol mix could have something to do with it. As I have stated before in my topic on my theory of biotransformation.

How much oz would you say is the limit?
From memory my 2oz was probably the most drinkable one.

 

[beervoid]

On another note, I seem to remember that single hop Galaxy, had a really hard time clearing up.
It had about 8oz of dry hops in it.
Will check recipes and report back

 

[beervoid]

Just went through some notes of recipes I could find..

First recipe and probably my most drinkable recipe. Came out more grapefruity citrus with light tropical notes which I think is because I only used columbus in the whirlpool.

10% Flaked oats, 10% chit, 2% crystal and the rest was pale malt
WP 3oz Columbus
Dry Hop 3oz Galaxy, 1.5oz Citra Cryo at tail end of fermentation

Other recipe, less good then the one before.. I remember it was mostly grapefruity and there was some herbal grassyness that didn't want to go away.. I suspected columbus was old and may have given me more unwanted flavors then possible although I've only used a little bit of it.
Went high on the flaked this time.

15% flaked wheat, 15% flaked oat, 10% chit malt.
1oz columbus at flameout
6oz of galaxy for WP sub 170f
6oz galaxy dry hop at tail end of fermentation.

Last one where I decided to finish the whole batch of galaxy I had left, was the most murky and harsh tasting one that did NOT want to clear up at all... Lowered the flaked adjuncts on this one again.
15% Flaked oats, 5% chit malt, rest is pale malt

0.25oz columbus at 60min
4oz galaxy WP 170f
8oz dry hop at tail end of fermentation.

All of the above recipes are with 100% RO water, more chloride to sulfate
and wyeast1318 London Ale III

Never really got the fantastic tropical notes that galaxy is known for, it tasted more like a citrus, grapefruit forward like citra hop.

Looking back now I really think too much polyphenols / bitterness was staying in suspension and my next galaxy batch will have 0% protein high adjuncts..

 

[beervoid]

Can you post the recipe and process?

check above

 

[beervoid]

couchsending is actually touching some good points, which again, coincide with some of the things I do.

I too don't use oats, wheat, etc. My latest IPA - mentioned above - only used 75% Lager malt and 25% Best Ale malt ( both from Crisp ). No harshness whatsoever and i dry hopped with 3.5 oz each of Galaxy and Citra and 1.75 oz Motueka.

If the theory of high flaked adjuncts and polyphenols is true then it really makes me wonder how Other Half does their DDH Galaxy Oatcream beers which are loaded with oats.... I guess this is where a centrifuge comes in handy.

Also I've done high flaked NEIPA's before without problems, using mostly Mosaic and Citra. Are Mosaic and Citra low polyphenol hops?

I also recall reading at ScottJanish that very high protein actually help drop out polyphenols..
I think that's why my 2nd recipe had such high content to test this out.
Didn't work out that well though, maybe I didn't add enough.

 

[thehaze]

Maybe there's different interactions happening between polyphenols and protein from various malts/flaked, which we don't understand yet.

I've brewed a Hefeweizen made with 55% Wheat Malt and 45% Pilsner and if I left that in the fridge for 12-24 hours, the beer would be clear. I mean, all yeast and protein went to the bottom and when shook, the beer would turn cloudy again. But if I poured carefully, the beer would ressemble a Kristallweizen. The yeast was Weihenstephaner and malts were from Weyermann.

I've heard the same happened to others with Wheat malt. I guess some breweries have the process and equipment to use great amounts of flaked and hops, and not result in a bitter, astringent, chalky mess.

But anyway, there is still lots of experimenting to do. So, my guess is you will have to speak with brewers that make this style commercially and experiment on your own, as long as you have the drive and passion.

 

[beervoid]

Maybe there's different interactions happening between polyphenols and protein from various malts/flaked, which we don't understand yet.

I've brewed a Hefeweizen made with 55% Wheat Malt and 45% Pilsner and if I left that in the fridge for 12-24 hours, the beer would be clear. I mean, all yeast and protein went to the bottom and when shook, the beer would turn cloudy again. But if I poured carefully, the beer would ressemble a Kristallweizen. The yeast was Weihenstephaner and malts were from Weyermann.

I've heard the same happened to others with Wheat malt. I guess some breweries have the process and equipment to use great amounts of flaked and hops, and not result in a bitter, astringent, chalky mess.

But anyway, there is still lots of experimenting to do. So, my guess is you will have to speak with brewers that make this style commercially and experiment on your own, as long as you have the drive and passion.

I also believe it's about the proteins en what type of proteins paired with all the other differences in the process like dry hopping, quality of hops and hop type, mashing technique, finings etc etc etc.. a delicate balance to be found too make the haze beneficial instead of a murky mess...

I believe I have found this balance but with Galaxy hops there seem to be different rules to the game.
Enough drive here to understand the process.. and luckily lots of brewers are chipping in!
Very grateful for that btw to everyone that has contributed to my threads and questions so far!

My next brew will probably be a 0% flaked adjuncts neipa with galaxy..
I've already reported that my 0% flaked wheat and oats but some Chit Malt NEIPA turned out great so i'm curious to repeat this with Galaxy

 

[ccous]

IMO Leave out the adjuncts, don’t dry hop during ferm, let most yeast drop before any DH

 

[couchsending]

Chit malt is basically the same as adding flaked adjuncts.

Try
2Row
5-10% Carafoam
2%-4% crystal

Soft crash the beer for a day or two and remove some yeast. 1318 doesn’t flocc well so it takes cooling to 50-55 for a few days. 1098 floccs quickly once dropped to 60. I can’t remember what you said you ferment in. If you’re in a carboy it’s a little tough. You’ll have to somehow crash and maintain positive head pressure. Even though you can’t pull yeast, less yeast in suspension will help. Let it warm back up to 60ish.

What ppms are you targeting for So4, Ca, and CL.

 

[leesmith]

Just went through some notes of recipes I could find..

First recipe and probably my most drinkable recipe. Came out more grapefruity citrus with light tropical notes which I think is because I only used columbus in the whirlpool.

10% Flaked oats, 10% chit, 2% crystal and the rest was pale malt
WP 3oz Columbus
Dry Hop 3oz Galaxy, 1.5oz Citra Cryo at tail end of fermentation

Other recipe, less good then the one before.. I remember it was mostly grapefruity and there was some herbal grassyness that didn't want to go away.. I suspected columbus was old and may have given me more unwanted flavors then possible although I've only used a little bit of it.
Went high on the flaked this time.

15% flaked wheat, 15% flaked oat, 10% chit malt.
1oz columbus at flameout
6oz of galaxy for WP sub 170f
6oz galaxy dry hop at tail end of fermentation.

Last one where I decided to finish the whole batch of galaxy I had left, was the most murky and harsh tasting one that did NOT want to clear up at all... Lowered the flaked adjuncts on this one again.
15% Flaked oats, 5% chit malt, rest is pale malt

0.25oz columbus at 60min
4oz galaxy WP 170f
8oz dry hop at tail end of fermentation.

All of the above recipes are with 100% RO water, more chloride to sulfate
and wyeast1318 London Ale III

Never really got the fantastic tropical notes that galaxy is known for, it tasted more like a citrus, grapefruit forward like citra hop.

Looking back now I really think too much polyphenols / bitterness was staying in suspension and my next galaxy batch will have 0% protein high adjuncts..

How did the Galaxy smell in the bag? The citrus and grapefruit descriptions your using don't line up. A factor that contributes to "not right" flavors (assuming execution and recipe is sound) have to do with ingredient quality.

Assuming your doing 5 gallon batches, the amounts your using should be fine.
I've done 8 oz. in a 2.5 gallon batch. Of course it was harsh while it was green but that settled down with time. It's a strong hop though...remember hops ARE astringent and harsh. Eat a pellet. So, when people say a particular hop is harsh what their actually saying is the recipe and/or process isn't right (if ingredient quality is ruled out).

You seem to be dialed in on ph which I think makes a big difference in hoppy beers. Your water isn't unusual, although I've never been a fan of the higher chloride to sulfate ratio. The malt bills your using are not unusual either.

Buy another bag, brew another single hop version, and only change one thing in the recipe. See what happens. Maybe dry hop after fermentation is done and you have dropped the yeast out? Change the malt bill like you said? Please keep us posted.

 

[Rodent]

all of my Galaxy use has been as a dry hop on IPAs utilizing Maris Otter, Mosaic, and either Imperial 'Barbarian' or Imperial 'Dry Hop'

my last beer used 2oz Mosaic and 1oz Galaxy just as the krausen leveled off (day 3 @64F with 'Dry Hop') and kept in the wort for 5 days - no harshness what so ever

 

[beervoid]

Chit malt is basically the same as adding flaked adjuncts.

Try
2Row
5-10% Carafoam
2%-4% crystal

Soft crash the beer for a day or two and remove some yeast. 1318 doesn’t flocc well so it takes cooling to 50-55 for a few days. 1098 floccs quickly once dropped to 60. I can’t remember what you said you ferment in. If you’re in a carboy it’s a little tough. You’ll have to somehow crash and maintain positive head pressure. Even though you can’t pull yeast, less yeast in suspension will help. Let it warm back up to 60ish.

What ppms are you targeting for So4, Ca, and CL.

I done a 30% chit malt. Next up is 15%.. I think some proteins will help body but I will try 0% chit as well.

As for minerals. I've always stayed around the typical 100ppm sulfate and 200ppm chloride, resulting in high CA as well.
I've been building this down adding Magnesium Chloride and Salt.. My last brew which is cold crashing as we type is So4 <50ppm Ca <50ppm CL <100ppm

 

[beervoid]

How did the Galaxy smell in the bag? The citrus and grapefruit descriptions your using don't line up. A factor that contributes to "not right" flavors (assuming execution and recipe is sound) have to do with ingredient quality.

Assuming your doing 5 gallon batches, the amounts your using should be fine.
I've done 8 oz. in a 2.5 gallon batch. Of course it was harsh while it was green but that settled down with time. It's a strong hop though...remember hops ARE astringent and harsh. Eat a pellet. So, when people say a particular hop is harsh what their actually saying is the recipe and/or process isn't right (if ingredient quality is ruled out).

You seem to be dialed in on ph which I think makes a big difference in hoppy beers. Your water isn't unusual, although I've never been a fan of the higher chloride to sulfate ratio. The malt bills your using are not unusual either.

Buy another bag, brew another single hop version, and only change one thing in the recipe. See what happens. Maybe dry hop after fermentation is done and you have dropped the yeast out? Change the malt bill like you said? Please keep us posted.

I have had 2 batches of galaxy and had the same problems with them. They smell great and pungent... I've had 2016 and 2017.. both similar problems..

8oz on 2.5 gallons that's ALOT of hops! how long did this take to settle out? How much adjuncts where in this particular brew?
It won't be long till I do another galaxy brew I still got 2017 left and I've just ordered the 2018 batch as i'm set on getting this hop to shine

 

[beervoid]

all of my Galaxy use has been as a dry hop on IPAs utilizing Maris Otter, Mosaic, and either Imperial 'Barbarian' or Imperial 'Dry Hop'

my last beer used 2oz Mosaic and 1oz Galaxy just as the krausen leveled off (day 3 @64F with 'Dry Hop') and kept in the wort for 5 days - no harshness what so ever

1 oz is very small so I can imagine with these quantities Galaxy won't be as problematic.

 

[NTexBrewer]

I can’t offer any proof but I have heard that Galaxy hops don’t agree with some people. Similar to how some people get cat piss from Citra hops.

I have only brewed one beer with galaxy hops and the taste was terrible. I was at a brewers discussion and Trevor Rogers of De Garde brewing mentioned the same thing. He just does not like the flavor of Galaxy hops.

 

[beervoid]

I can’t offer any proof but I have heard that Galaxy hops don’t agree with some people. Similar to how some people get cat piss from Citra hops.

I have only brewed one beer with galaxy hops and the taste was terrible. I was at a brewers discussion and Trevor Rogers of De Garde brewing mentioned the same thing. He just does not like the flavor of Galaxy hops.

In my case that wouldn't count. I've had both Other Half DDH Space Diamonds and Trillium Congress Street and I absolutely loved them

 

[Rodent]

1 oz is very small so I can imagine with these quantities Galaxy won't be as problematic.

but that's the point, no? use it to maximize it's best qualities while also being aware to minimize those you don't prefer.

IME anything more than 1oz solo or in a DH blend, and I don't like how the overall flavor is impacted that's more than just harshness.

up to 1oz on a 3-6oz DH combo for 5 gallon batch, and I like the nuances it brings.

YMMV

 

[leesmith]

I have had 2 batches of galaxy and had the same problems with them. They smell great and pungent... I've had 2016 and 2017.. both similar problems..

8oz on 2.5 gallons that's ALOT of hops! how long did this take to settle out? How much adjuncts where in this particular brew?
It won't be long till I do another galaxy brew I still got 2017 left and I've just ordered the 2018 batch as i'm set on getting this hop to shine

Bummer...I guess you just need to find the right recipe for your process.

Yeah it was a lot....I was Galaxy happy there for a while. Did a heavy handed sour with it a couple times and people loved it. The IPA took quite a while to drop just right. Maybe 2 weeks? It was 15% white wheat malt, 5% crystal 20, and the rest Rahr Two-Row. 5% sugar in the boil too. 6 oz. Galaxy actually and 3 oz. Columbus for the dry hop split into two dry hop additions; one during fermentation and one after. I still reminisce about that beer but I'm done brewing DIPA's; really not into the alcohol content anymore. I posted about the recipe a while ago: Treehouse Brewing Julius Clone and got a little flack for my hop usage too.

Anyways...good luck and don't give up.

 

[couchsending]

I did an all Galaxy IPA with 1318 that I didn’t experience any harshness from.

6 gallons in FV

Hop shot at 60
1oz 20
1oz 5
3oz WP
8oz DH (1oz at terminal before crashing, 7oz at 60 after pulling yeast)

I did Lager it at 32 for a week while carbonating.

Rahr 2 Row
30% GP
2% Honey
5% Carafoam

After 3 days of DH I slowly cool the beer to 45 for two days before transfering. If I had a unitank I would go lower but I can’t go lower with the Chronicals and maintain head pressure effectively.

 

[Oldskewl]

I recently brewed a Variation of the Trillium Vicinity Clone using Galaxy, Nelson and Columbus. It had an extreme astringency for about 3-4 weeks. It has settled down some but still not enjoyable. I blamed it on the Columbus since I had a similar experience with a Hop Hands clone using Columbus for bittering.

72% Pilsen
15% wheat malt
3% carapils
3% c15
3% acid malt
4% corn sugar

.25 oz Columbus FWH
.75 oz Columbus 10 min
1 oz each Nelson, Galaxy, Columbus whirlpool 180 deg

3 oz Galaxy, 1 oz Columbus, 3 oz Nelson dry hop at high Krausen for 7 days.

I used 1318 for yeast. Targeted 100 ca, 150 cl and 75 so4.

I have used similar process for the NE IPA for brewfessor and turned out excellent beers. But this beer used higher amount of Galaxy.

 

[couchsending]

[QUOTE="Oldskewl, post: 8498614, member: 185402]

3 oz Galaxy, 1 oz Columbus, 3 oz Nelson dry hop at high Krausen for 7 days.

I used 1318 for yeast. Targeted 100 ca, 150 cl and 75 so4.

[/QUOTE]

These two things are causing the astringency.

Try the same beer and wait until either the absolute very end of fermentation before DH or after fermentation has finished.

Also be careful with Ca and Cl levels
That high especially when using CaCl. that can also amplify astringency in my opinion.

 

[Oldskewl]

This is the first time I raised the calcium up to the 100 level. I usually do 150 cl and 75 sulfate. Why would this hop combo(3 oz Galaxy, 1 oz Columbus, 3 oz Nelson) cause astringency dryhopping at high krausen and 2oz Citra, 2 oz Mosaic, and 2 oz Galaxy or El Dorado at high krausen not cause astringency.

 

[couchsending]

Polyphenols. Galaxy is much higher than all those other hops. Vic Secret, Enigma, Topaz as well. All the high oil content Aussie hops are.

 

[Oldskewl]

Polyphenols. Galaxy is much higher than all those other hops. Vic Secret, Enigma, Topaz as well. All therapy high oil content Aussie hops are.

Is there a particular oil I should be on the lookout for or is it just the Total oil content that is the culprit

 

[couchsending]

Is there a particular oil I should be on the lookout for or is it just the Total oil content that is the culprit

Sorry that was misleading. All those hops are incredibly potent and generally have pretty high oil content Which doesn’t exactly translate to polyphenols, sorry. With these hops they just happen to coincide.

I believe Denali is right up there close to Galaxy in total oil but you don’t get the harshness from it. CTZ, Eureka and some of the Hopsteiner varieties are incredibly high but nothing hits the total oils of Galaxy at 5%.

It has something to do with terroir down there I believe.

 

[wepeeler]

I too get a ton of harshness from Galaxy. Always have. Never had that issue with any other hop. Granted, I get harshness from most commercial beer with Galaxy as well. I think I'm just very sensitive to the flavor of Galaxy. I very rarely ever get tropical flavors.

 

[couchsending]

I've had the best luck with Galaxy doing the following:

Never dry hopping with it during active fermentation
Dry hopping colder (57/58)
Cold Conditioning the beer for longer at lower temps
Use a little less, a little goes a long ways with Galaxy

Awesome candied passionfruit character using these methods.

In fact about to add some Galaxy to a couple beers right now.