The most expensive way to Homebrew

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ClaudiusB said:
I should have been more clear. I was asking about your RTD sensor.
For redundancy I use dual element thermocouples, just in case.
Click to expand...
In the complete system there are three RTD's, each RTD is a single element resistive temperature detector.

Due to the nature of the RTD signal register in the PLC if there is a problem it is easily detectable.

The register is a signed 16-bit integer.
Fahrenheit readings between 32 and 212 degrees span a few thousand points.
 
ClaudiusB said:
I should have been more clear. I was asking about your RTD sensor.
For redundancy I use dual element thermocouples, just in case.
Click to expand...
Can you share a link or picture with your dual element thermocouple?

Is this also k type?
 
MintonHVAC said:
Due to the nature of the RTD signal register in the PLC if there is a problem it is easily detectable.
Click to expand...
I agree its easily detected but without a spare you are screwed. With a dual element sensor I just move the connector over.
MintonHVAC said:
Can you share a link or picture with your dual element thermocouple?

Is this also k type?
Click to expand...
I will take a picture.
 
Yeastieboy said:
I bet my eBIAB makes better beer. Hahaha...
Click to expand...
In all fairness this system isn't designed to make the best beer in the world...

The system was designed to figure out what variables change the characteristics of beer.

Nevertheless I appreciate your input.
 
MintonHVAC said:
Can you share a link or picture with your dual element thermocouple?
Click to expand...
Dual element thermocouple with single and double connector.
In case of failure I can move the single connector over and the double I wired with two connectors.

Is this also k type?
Click to expand...
The double element thermocouples I purchased in 1995 from Omega Engineering and are available as k, J etc.
 

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MintonHVAC said:
This is the final wiring and design of the inside.

Also the heat exchanger.

Plate Heat exchangers have plugged up in the past and not easily cleaned.

We use a shell and Tube style heat exchanger that has proven to be very effective.


There's also the beginning pictures of the waste/ spent grain management system.View attachment 555929View attachment 555930View attachment 555931
Click to expand...

I was wondering where you sourced your parts for the heat exchanger and if it’s not to much trouble a list of parts and some more pictures. I would like to build something similar , it would be so much easier to clean and it would solve the clogging issues with my plate chiller.

Thanks
 
Joe17 said:
I was wondering where you sourced your parts for the heat exchanger and if it’s not to much trouble a list of parts and some more pictures. I would like to build something similar , it would be so much easier to clean and it would solve the clogging issues with my plate chiller.

Thanks
Click to expand...
The shell and Tube heat exchanger was sourced from various companies.

And yes it will not plug up which is really nice.

There are three parts to the shell and Tube heat exchanger.

The 15 in shell and Tube shotgun style heat exchanger. X10

180 degree elbows. X10

1 foot whip. X10


The 180 degree elbows were custom-made to save space.
The shell and Tube heat exchanger is a vertical condenser. These are used a lot in manufacturing of hard alcohol. You can pick up each shell and Tube heat exchanger for under 50 bucks and I used 10 Heat exchangers to get the proper heat transfer coefficient.

The showing tube heat exchangers are interconnected with flexible stainless steel braided tubing on the glycol side.

We are also running glycol at 15 degrees Fahrenheit.

IMG_20171030_200542.jpg
 
MintonHVAC said:
Yes many people have mentioned this, I understand it takes the art out of brewing beer. The project was not designed to have an artistic side to it. The purpose of the project is to brew really good beer and figure out exactly why. I want to know what 1 degree or 1 minute longer does to a beer.
If humans were good at this type of thing we wouldn't have computers and drive our cars for us. Now sure that is completely off topic but the point is relevant. I want to create real recipes with real facts backing them. This entire project its open source and any data collected from the project will be released to the public. The only bit of information that cannot be released is the actual PLC program. I have created the manual controls page for testing but the automated process is being contracted out and has cost upwards of $15,000.

The program's going to be protected and the plc's in the production run will be write only. For warranty purposes.

If one wishes to not have a warranty anymore or their warranty period is up we would be more than happy to send them a copy of the program. That has no read or write attributes and they will be able to do whatever they would like with it.

One of the nice things about the PLC we are utilizing is the option to create an oem package on a USB drive.

The end-user simply turns off the system plugs the USB drive into the PLC and turns the system on.

This updates the current program without the need of a computer.

The PLC never loses its program and is stored in flash memory. The battery on the PLC is only for the real time clock.

Theory of operation actual design and information on products used is completely up for grabs.
If anyone has any questions on the system feel free to ask.
Click to expand...

The art of brewing is captured in recipe formulation. A mechanically repeatable system is a must for your target market. I’m assuming your targeting pilot systems for smaller brew pubs and start up breweries. Large breweries will just get a 5 bbl system as a pilot system. My hunch is you should be shooting for a price point between 15k-20k.

Good luck
 
Dcpcooks said:
The art of brewing is captured in recipe formulation. A mechanically repeatable system is a must for your target market. I’m assuming your targeting pilot systems for smaller brew pubs and start up breweries. Large breweries will just get a 5 bbl system as a pilot system. My hunch is you should be shooting for a price point between 15k-20k.

Good luck
Click to expand...
That would be an amazing price point unfortunately the sensors used on the system cost more than that.

I think the atago refractometer cost $8,000 alone. Fairline fitting, 0-100 Brixs, inline, temperature compensated, 5-100c operating, 160c CIP. 4-20ma output.

Once this system is 100% operational and all the final Parts respect out I'll have a better idea of what the target cost will be.

My current goal is to offer a product under 50k.
 
Spyderbyte07 said:
Where did you find that deal?
Click to expand...
1,5" (OD50.5) Stainless steel 304 condenser 350mm.

http://s.aliexpress.com/UNNzUVfU

This appears to be and identical heat exchanger to what I used for $50 exactly with free shipping.

Doesn't get much better than that!

I placed an order for two of these to check the quality and I'll let you know what I find.
-1143417422159461390.jpg
 
Beautiful! My thoughts:

So, the vision is, that I can design my recipe, have my minions fill the silos w/ grain, hit "run", and I soon have wort. I can load the hops myself, thank you very much.

I am not sure how much value the biodigester adds. Not sure what the solution to spent grains really is, maybe just put them into a tub. (My biodigesters are my neighbor's chickens.) Also, it seems like a biodigester adds limits to how often you can brew.

Also, and I saw previous comments, a great addition would be incorporating a RO system. Not everyone has great water, and that is one thing that really seems to matter. Just a way to add mineral additions to mash, sparge, or skip-them-all into the mash. If I want to use it, I can measure out my own minerals.

Does it have a way to add several smaller grain additions, besides from the silos? That would be necessary.

Best of luck. That looks to be a sweet, sweet, overengineered in a good way, system. No way I am paying a new SUV for it, but I am not your target customer.
 
TappedOut said:
Beautiful! My thoughts:

So, the vision is, that I can design my recipe, have my minions fill the silos w/ grain, hit "run", and I soon have wort. I can load the hops myself, thank you very much.

I am not sure how much value the biodigester adds. Not sure what the solution to spent grains really is, maybe just put them into a tub. (My biodigesters are my neighbor's chickens.) Also, it seems like a biodigester adds limits to how often you can brew.

Also, and I saw previous comments, a great addition would be incorporating a RO system. Not everyone has great water, and that is one thing that really seems to matter. Just a way to add mineral additions to mash, sparge, or skip-them-all into the mash. If I want to use it, I can measure out my own minerals.

Does it have a way to add several smaller grain additions, besides from the silos? That would be necessary.

Best of luck. That looks to be a sweet, sweet, overengineered in a good way, system. No way I am paying a new SUV for it, but I am not your target customer.
Click to expand...
Fair enough! Lol
Yes the tops of the mash tun and boil Kettle both have 3-inch Tri clamp viewing ports that can be removed to add whatever additions you would like.

In terms of water adjustments, these can also be made through these 3 inch Tri clamp viewing ports.

The entire hop addition will be performed by the computer as well in this particular build as it will eventually be part of a commercial Brewery where people can come in and brew beer on the system for fun. And when this goes to Market, each one is going to be handled and fully customizable to the end user.

For instance the MDX process mixer cost almost $5,000, you can get the same exact results from a non stainless steel version just with a stainless steel Tri clamp for only $2200.

The hardest thing for me at this time is trying to find cheaper, just as reliable sensors.

This is the number one bottle neck on the cost.

Currently there is a Commerical water filtration system connected to the system which simply strips chlorine, and a few other bad things and then filters down to the submicron level.
I won't be offering any water filtration Technologies is that will be up to the end user.

There is on the other hand a minimum flow rate required for the system to work properly.

1.2 gallons per minute - minimum influent rate.


Thank you for your feedback it is greatly appreciated!
 
Two problems not yet mentioned are.
The monkey wrench is your grains are always subtle different sometimes not so subtle. So exactly repeating results are not easy ore even possible. The maintenance of this is huge, way past the majority of brewers. It’s a trouble shooting nightmare.
 
MintonHVAC said:
Currently the project has cost $72,000.
The original budget for the project with $75,000.
Click to expand...

Ok, I was selling my house anyway (sure we were planning to buy another one, but maybe we just find a place to rent with a really understanding landlord who would let me install this), and my wife just got a better paying job. We don't really need both cars. Does my son really need a college fund? Speaking of him, you know, I could start charging him rent, maybe get a loan based on what I could charge him over the next 17 years... plus those late fees I'll charge him will really add up, as he is unlikely to get a job for at least the next 13 years...

:no:

For real, though, it sure is fancy. If you hadn't told me how much you had spent I would've guessed more. Well, no, I really have no idea how much this stuff costs, so I wouldn't have guessed at all. I was just trying to say that it looks awesome.
 
PKnotlost said:
Two problems not yet mentioned are.
The monkey wrench is your grains are always subtle different sometimes not so subtle. So exactly repeating results are not easy ore even possible. The maintenance of this is huge, way past the majority of brewers. It’s a trouble shooting nightmare.
Click to expand...
Yes, yes and yes.
This is definitely not for beginners in any way. A background in electronics, thermal Dynamics and mechanics are definitely a prerequisite.

As for repeatability on recipes...

This becomes a little interesting.

There's maximums and minimums for time-temperature, recirculation rates, sugar content and much more.

The repeatability algorithm will take some time to home.

With upwards of $15,000 worth of inline sensors the system will hopefully be able to repeat a recipe time and time again but only time will tell.

I sure appreciate your input it is greatly appreciated.
 
Kent88 said:
Ok, I was selling my house anyway (sure we were planning to buy another one, but maybe we just find a place to rent with a really understanding landlord who would let me install this), and my wife just got a better paying job. We don't really need both cars. Does my son really need a college fund? Speaking of him, you know, I could start charging him rent, maybe get a loan based on what I could charge him over the next 17 years... plus those late fees I'll charge him will really add up, as he is unlikely to get a job for at least the next 13 years...

:no:

For real, though, it sure is fancy. If you hadn't told me how much you had spent I would've guessed more. Well, no, I really have no idea how much this stuff costs, so I wouldn't have guessed at all. I was just trying to say that it looks awesome.
Click to expand...
LOL, love the reply but all jokes aside I do appreciate your input.
 
MintonHVAC said:
1,5" (OD50.5) Stainless steel 304 condenser 350mm.

http://s.aliexpress.com/UNNzUVfU

This appears to be and identical heat exchanger to what I used for $50 exactly with free shipping.

Doesn't get much better than that!

I placed an order for two of these to check the quality and I'll let you know what I find.View attachment 559231
Click to expand...

Excellent, thanks! I ordered one as well.

milldoggy said:
Not the same thing, but you could use pool heat exchangers. I had good results with one, two in series would be even better.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/574257/
Click to expand...

I'm glad to hear you've had good results, and thank you for posting them in such detail. I'm also hoping to use it at an external heat exchanger instead of a traditional HERMS coil and may also add it during cooling once I get recirculation set up.

Thanks!
 
MintonHVAC said:
Yes pretty much all these systems will be custom made to order and the particular stainless steel vessel that we use is a 14 gauge pharmaceutical shipping drum that can be purchased up words of 75 gallons and as small as 3 gallons.

They are definitely the thickest and the most heaviest seamless process drum I have found.
Click to expand...
MintonHVAC said:
The flowmeter meters a precise amount within about half an ounce in 5 gallons accuracy.
Click to expand...

Where did you source the stainless drums and what flow meter are you using?

Thanks again!
 
Spyderbyte07 said:
Where did you source the stainless drums and what flow meter are you using?

Thanks again!
Click to expand...
http://www.skolnik.com/seamless_process_drums

The drums where using are manufactured by Skolnik. We opted in for the stainless steel seamless process drum which gives you a rounded corner at the bottom of the drum and no seam. Each drum cost around $800 with a lid that includes an edpm seal that you can ask for loose and not glued in. This makes it really nice for changing the seal and for cleaning.
The drum comes with a carbon steel closure ring, which we currently have, but for $100 you can get a quick lock stainless steel closure ring. This is something we will have to purchase and was not aware of it when we ordered it.

The flow meter is manufactured by ABB and unfortunately I cannot think of the part number off the top of my head. The flow meter we are using for system flow is a magnetic flow meter that output signal that communicates directly to the plc. This has no impellers or anything inside the flow to trap any particulate. This flow meter was acquired from a Campbell Soup facility that upgraded their equipment.
I believe a flow meter new like the one we used is in the $2,000 range.

The influent meter on the other hand is a simple Halls affect pulse output that goes to a converter box to convert the 5 volt pulse output to a 24 volt output and the converter feeds the high-speed counter.
The voltage converter is nothing more than a 5 amp solid state relay in an epoxy enclosure rated for DC.
I believe this flow meter cost under $20 and are commonly used in instant hot water heaters to detect the flow of water.
This did take quite some time in scaling the flow and calculating it's actual throughput.
This particular flow meter is not suitable for wort and or the temperature in the processing system.

I hope this answered your questions.
If you have anymore please feel free to ask.
 
MintonHVAC said:
1,5" (OD50.5) Stainless steel 304 condenser 350mm.

http://s.aliexpress.com/UNNzUVfU

This appears to be and identical heat exchanger to what I used for $50 exactly with free shipping.

Doesn't get much better than that!

I placed an order for two of these to check the quality and I'll let you know what I find.View attachment 559231
Click to expand...
So I did order one of these condensers from the link provided and it is of pretty decent quality. The 3/8 tubing inside the shell could use a little bit of cleaning and the welds are fairly decent. I probably wouldn't use this on the cold side of things but on the hot side it should work pretty well. Overall these heat exchangers are equivalent to the ones I used and you can't really beat the actual cost.
The stainless steel appears to be 304 and is not passivated. A phosphoric acid bath will be required after cleaning the welds if you would like to use this in the cold side of things. After submerging the heat exchanger and water you can detect small amounts of iron oxide forming. After a phosphoric acid bath and successful removal of iron particulates it appears the chromium in the stainless is doing a good job and no more iron oxide was forming after the bath of acid. I did passivate it for 24 hours @ 1.0 M solution heated to 80 degrees Fahrenheit.

Overall 9/10
 
MintonHVAC said:
But that never stopped me from trying.
Click to expand...
Don't stop. I never stop or listen to others with my projects.
When I built my system in 1995 people on HBT told me I was blowing my kids college funds and more.
Now we see all over HBT home brewers doing the same thing and stainless everywhere.

Implement enough diagnostic to make the operators life easier. Not many brewing systems are operator friendly when something goes wrong.
For first time home brewers I have implemented guided brewing, it's a step by step automatic hand holding.
The only prerequisite, knowledge of brewing terminology and reading the two local displays without going to the control room.
 

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Any reason you didn't use the copper condensers or a larger diameter? Seems like it might take up a large amount of space. I'm interested in the idea of using a reflux column i think it maybe easier to cip and cleaner all around. Plus it's tri clamp! I might worry about the dead space hopefully you have found a way to get around that. What I do for the dead space cleaning water that's stuck in the pipes I use a oil less pancake compressor with a inline filter that I can connect to a tri clamp port via 1/4 quick connects for air tools. From there I just turn valves to navigate to the area I want to blow out, obviously I also open a exit port as well. I guess you could automate that process for end of day cleaning. I would love to know the stats of your chiller you are making when you are done. Cool stuff i was looking at a sabco plate chiller or something but this is better and kinda cheaper. Keep it going



MintonHVAC said:
The shell and Tube heat exchanger was sourced from various companies.

And yes it will not plug up which is really nice.

There are three parts to the shell and Tube heat exchanger.

The 15 in shell and Tube shotgun style heat exchanger. X10

180 degree elbows. X10

1 foot whip. X10


The 180 degree elbows were custom-made to save space.
The shell and Tube heat exchanger is a vertical condenser. These are used a lot in manufacturing of hard alcohol. You can pick up each shell and Tube heat exchanger for under 50 bucks and I used 10 Heat exchangers to get the proper heat transfer coefficient.

The showing tube heat exchangers are interconnected with flexible stainless steel braided tubing on the glycol side.

We are also running glycol at 15 degrees Fahrenheit.

View attachment 558863
Click to expand...
 
Very sophisticated, indeed. If there is a need fot bottling different sizes from 0,33 l to 2 l and 5 l party kegs, i would like to sell my semi-automatic filler, produced by A.Gruber, Austria in 2014, has only about 120 working hours behind, as new. Ground- we purchased larger rinser-filler-capper-labeller while moved from 2HL to 20HL brewing system. Link is here : https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...DBm_E_gm8NOxYNzw2E7gw3y8aUQBjjGIP1n7hslro6JXg Should somebody have interest, can find me over facebook under Vahur KaseDSC_0245.JPG DSC_0251.JPG DSC_0252.JPG DSC_0242.JPG DSC_0253.JPG
 

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