The more I read the less I know...

[AWP]

Hi guys.

I was planning on starting with this;
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter1-1.html

As many have I assume, but then after reading through the forum I came across;
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/boil-hops-not-malt-extract-steve-bader-143145/

Which I find very confusing...

Which one is correct?

Ta.

 

[bdupree]

both are correct. If you add the extract later in the boil, you will have a lighter color beer. It all depends on what you want

 

[Revvy]

The thing about brewing is that there's usually more than one "right answer" or "best way." There are many ways to do things and they're usually all correct, they all make beer.

The trick is finding out what works for YOU. That's developing your own process. That's how for example, 2 brewers can follow the same recipe and end up making two different beers....based on how they've tailored their day.

The best advice I can offer is not to try 50,000 different practices all a the same time. Take it slow and try different tweaks to your progress. If you change too many things up and something goes wrong than it makes it difficult to trouble shoot any issues.

If you're taking a scattergun approach than you won't really learn anything, especially what works for you.

This isn't hopefully going to be your first batch of beer, so you don't have to fit everything you learn into one batch of beer.

I'd follow palmer on this batch, and read more about late extract addition later and decide what works...other folks thinks that boiling the hops in plain water is bad, and you need some extract in there.

But just take it slow keep adapting as your brew more batches.

 

[eanmcnulty]

I would follow Palmer too. He knows what he's doing.
I brewed about ten very different brews before I started brewing very similar brews but changing one small part of it to see what effect I got. It has really helped me learn how the ingredients and processes affect the finished product. Be sure you have washed your equipment, and anything that touches your beer after it has been boiled needs to be sanitized.
Have fun. Don't stress. Anything you make will at least be drinkable.
Welcome to brewing!

 

[Yooper]

I would follow Palmer too. He knows what he's doing.

Yeah, but..............even Palmer now recommends adding 1/2 of the extract near the end of the boil!

Honestly, it doesn't really matter in the great scheme of things. But about 5 years ago when I was doing partial boils on my stove before I had a chiller, I did it both ways and found that I preferred beers with the extract added near the end of the boil. It was a less extract-y taste and a nice lighter colored beer.

 

[unionrdr]

That's the kind of thing I keep mentioning in threads like these. They're not infallible,they can be proven wrong. Or at least,& more often as not,shown that there's more than one way to do the job correctly. Perhaps better,or at least with less movement of the brew. That sort of thing. That's what I really love about this site. It/we are on the forefront of brewing.

 

[Revvy]

Yeah, but..............even Palmer now recommends adding 1/2 of the extract near the end of the boil!

Honestly, it doesn't really matter in the great scheme of things. But about 5 years ago when I was doing partial boils on my stove before I had a chiller, I did it both ways and found that I preferred beers with the extract added near the end of the boil. It was a less extract-y taste and a nice lighter colored beer.

Yeah but, IIRC the Steve Bader thread wasn't about half extract in the beginning and half later it was about boiling your hops in ONLY IN water for the first half of the boil. That was a big debate and argument if not in that thread, but another thread about the thread.

That's why I recommended sticking to Palmer- Late extract is a great thing to do, boiling hops in water, a debateable practice, that even BYO's Mr. Wizard believes doesn't work in terms of isomerizing the alpha acids as fully as some folks think.

 

[jsweet]

As far as the title of the thread... I think you've read enough for now, stop reading, brew a batch, then go back and read some more. Lather, rinse, repeat. IMO it's better to brew a batch that's not as good as it might have been than it is to never brew a batch for fear there's some critical technique you haven't learned yet.

 

[unionrdr]

That's why I changed how I brew the same basic recipe style this time. I did a "hop tea" to start in the brew kettle last time. Results were pretty good,but I felt it could be better. This time,I added all the DME at the beginning,then 3 hop additions. This included a ten min steep at flame out,instead of dry hop,which didn't hold up well. I added the cooper's OS draught can after that. We'll see how well this version works. At least find out for myself if this way helps AA utilization as much as they say.

 

[broadbill]

Hi guys.

I was planning on starting with this;
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter1-1.html

As many have I assume, but then after reading through the forum I came across;
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/boil-hops-not-malt-extract-steve-bader-143145/

Which I find very confusing...

Which one is correct?

Ta.

Steve Bader aside, also keep in mind that the web-version of "How to brew" is a older edition of that book. Palmer has since published subsequent versions, so what Palmer may now recommend may be different from what what might be stated in the web-version. FYI.

 

[Revvy]

As far as the title of the thread... I think you've read enough for now, stop reading, brew a batch, then go back and read some more. Lather, rinse, repeat. IMO it's better to brew a batch that's not as good as it might have been than it is to never brew a batch for fear there's some critical technique you haven't learned yet.

This is great advice. I think right now you're loading up with a ton of information including theories, and it becomes information overload. Once you've brewed a batch you start to turn it into practice rather than theory and you'll also understand more. I remember reading brewing books and not understanding a damn thing in the beginning, but once I brewed my first batch the stuff made more sense.

 

[jsweet]

Steve Bader aside, also keep in mind that the web-version of "How to brew" is a older edition of that book. Palmer has since published subsequent versions, so what Palmer may now recommend may be different from what what might be stated in the web-version. FYI.

I just finished reading the 3rd edition (well, I skipped some of the more technical stuff about AG brewing since I don't expect to have time for that until my youngest son is old enough to be walking on his own and not demanding to be paraded around like a damn sultan all the frikkin' time...) and the crash course section has not significantly changed. He also most definitely does not recommend making a separate hop tea, though he does endorse late extract addition (although not necessarily for your first brew).

The separate hop tea thing is a pretty unorthodox idea, with the conventional wisdom being that at least some of the malt is necessary to properly isomerize the alpha acids. If I had to take a random stab in the dark, I would guess that the varying results people have been getting may have to do with water chemistry -- if you have just the right water chemistry, maybe you can isomerize the acids without malt? Just a random guess...

 

[Revvy]

I just finished reading the 3rd edition (well, I skipped some of the more technical stuff about AG brewing since I don't expect to have time for that until my youngest son is old enough to be walking on his own and not demanding to be paraded around like a damn sultan all the frikkin' time...) and the crash course section has not significantly changed. He also most definitely does not recommend making a separate hop tea, though he does endorse late extract addition (although not necessarily for your first brew).

The separate hop tea thing is a pretty unorthodox idea, with the conventional wisdom being that at least some of the malt is necessary to properly isomerize the alpha acids. If I had to take a random stab in the dark, I would guess that the varying results people have been getting may have to do with water chemistry -- if you have just the right water chemistry, maybe you can isomerize the acids without malt? Just a random guess...

I know we're getting sort of off track discussing this, but I posted the Mr Wizard passage last week.

Hops contain hundreds of components and about three classes are of most interest to brewers: polyphenols, bittering acids and the aromatic oils. Polyphenols or tannins react with proteins during wort boiling and aid in trub formation. Some survive into the finished beer and can add a grassy character if present in highly hopped beers. The bittering acids in hops have a very low solubility in aqueous solutions, e.g., wort and beer, and isomerize during boiling into iso-alpha acids that are water-soluble. Finally, there are the oils in hops that lend piney, citrusy and spicy aromas to beer.

When hops are added to wort and boiled the pH is around 5.2 and there is protein present to precipitate much of the polyphenols extracted from the hop leaf. Boiling time is important and most beers that have hop aroma use late additions. During the boil, hop acids undergo numerous chemical changes and the resultant mix has a profound influence on beer bitterness and the quality of bitterness. When the pH of wort boiling is increased by adding alkaline buffers, hop utilization increases but bitterness is reportedly unpleasant. If you boiled hops in water as opposed to wort, the pH would be higher and the flavor would lack.

A hop tea might be good for flavor or aroma additions, like if you want a hoppier arom at bottling time, but for bittering and LEA, I don't buy it.

 

[unionrdr]

Just to clarify my version of "hop tea" usage,I did it in the BK at the beginning of the boil. Works pretty good,but not quite there,imo. It can wind up mixing well with a dry hop. But neither held up well past 4th week or so. Hence,I tried using all 3lbs of DME at the start of the boil for about 25mins to do 3 hop additions at 20,10,& 10 at flame out. Cooper's can after that I feel will give lighter color than if I'd used regular LME at the start & more bittering. I just think saving at least the LME for the end to be better.

 

[AWP]

Wow, this place is great!

Thanks guys.

 

[reifer1]

I couldn't agree more!!! This site rocks. :rockin:
Information overload will kill ya. I'm pretty new to homebrewing, but I remember brewing my first batch with three different "How To" books open. My head was spinning. Good thing I don't brew beer without drinking beer...made it allll right.

Wow, this place is great!

Thanks guys.

 

[Homercidal]

FWIW I recommend doing a late extract boil for your first batch. WHY? Because it's not difficult enough of a concept to NOT do!

Just ad 1/3 of your extract at the start, then add the rest later on. It's that simple.

I concur with others who say just go brew up a batch. I have a friend who's son wants to brew. He bought a kit a couple of years ago and never got to brew it because the conditions weren't exactly right. Now he's too busy to brew it and it's more than likely expired. I keep inviting him over to see how dang easy it is and to not sweat the details.

Get a batch under your belt and then find out where you need to put your focus. But for starters, I suggest

Starsan
Fermentation temps
RDWHWHB!

 

[eanmcnulty]

Yeah, but..............even Palmer now recommends adding 1/2 of the extract near the end of the boil!

Honestly, it doesn't really matter in the great scheme of things. But about 5 years ago when I was doing partial boils on my stove before I had a chiller, I did it both ways and found that I preferred beers with the extract added near the end of the boil. It was a less extract-y taste and a nice lighter colored beer.

Yeah, Yoop, I know. I was just saying that as a new brewer he could go with Palmer's beer and have a brewing experience and a drinkable beer. I think many people stress, and I was just saying to get going and brew. Cheers!