The ever changing opinions of proper techniques in brewing

[bmeyer46]

I love BIAB...all in one pot..I hate cleaning, so it's right up my alley!

 

[RM-MN]

Have any of you done multiple iodine tests to see how long it really takes for conversion either in the conventional mash tun or BIAB? I've noticed the wort changing from cloudy with starches to nearly clear in quite a short time with BIAB but I've never tested, just let it go for the full hour but I've heard from one brewer that only mashes for 30 minutes.

 

[Nightshade]

Have any of you done multiple iodine tests to see how long it really takes for conversion either in the conventional mash tun or BIAB? I've noticed the wort changing from cloudy with starches to nearly clear in quite a short time with BIAB but I've never tested, just let it go for the full hour but I've heard from one brewer that only mashes for 30 minutes.

I have heard a few arguments regarding mash time and read a test one of the bigger micros had done with mashes of 30, 45, 60 and 90 minutes and saw marginal differences between them which I thought was odd. I mash for 45 minutes and get good results and consistent efficiency. I tried a 60 and a 75 just to see the difference (same recipes and all other the same) and saw no discernable difference I could call conclusive.

 

[oakbarn]

I agree with everything you said in this post BUT. We still (psychologically?) consider books, and even magazines to be the "authority" and many still view "collaboratively created" (internet) information, or information from non published people suspect.

.....

My brew buddy is a good example of this. He trusts "books" more than Homebrewtalk. He is so OCD about HSA is is actually CDO (His has to alphabetize it!):rockin:

 

[Golddiggie]

Is BIAB really easier? I get that the grains are all trapped in the bag making it easier to dump, etc. It just doesn't look right for some reason. I know it's whatever works for the individual, I was just looking for some first hand feedback on BIAB. I don't know anybody that does it. I do the picnic cooler, but as soon as my GD parts come in, it's RIMS city.

BIAB is fine, until you hit either the limit of the bag, or your ability to lift, and hold, the bag so it can drain. I quickly hit that ceiling early on, which is why I switched first to coolers and then to the keggle mash tun.

 

[nbrack]

BIAB is fine, until you hit either the limit of the bag, or your ability to lift, and hold, the bag so it can drain. I quickly hit that ceiling early on, which is why I switched first to coolers and then to the keggle mash tun.

The "Semi BIAB" mash in a cooler looks really intriguing to me to avoid having to lift that grainbag out of the kettle.

 

[Jon73]

I suppose it you're doing this in the garage you could hook up a come-a-long or some sort of pulley system to the rafters. Tie off the bag and put a SS clevis on it and then attach it to the rafters.

 

[Golddiggie]

I suppose it you're doing this in the garage you could hook up a come-a-long or some sort of pulley system to the rafters. Tie off the bag and put a SS clevis on it and then attach it to the rafters.

For all that work, in designing, setting it up, testing, fixing, etc. you'd probably be better off just converting a cooler into a regular mash tun (or something out of stainless steel :rockin.

oooooooo shiny...

 

[Rev2010]

I suppose it you're doing this in the garage you could hook up a come-a-long or some sort of pulley system to the rafters. Tie off the bag and put a SS clevis on it and then attach it to the rafters.

Not that much easier than just using a cooler IMO


Rev.

 

[bobbrewedit]

Not that much easier than just using a cooler IMO

Rev.

Especially when compared to a simple batch sparge using a cooler and a bazooka tube.

 

[Rev2010]

Especially when compared to a simple batch sparge using a cooler and a bazooka tube.

That's exactly what I have/do. I use a bazooka screen since my first dealing with a warped false bottom in my cooler. Returned the nearly $50 false bottom for a $17 bazooka screen and never looked back. Funny too cause I just now looked up the false bottom reviews on NB and apparently others complain about grain getting underneath with some mentioning the warp:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/12-s-s-false-bottom.html#tab-review

I batch sparge but I double batch sparge contrary to most opinions today that a single sparge is all that is necessary.


Rev.

 

[Brulosopher]

Personally, I've been brewing for just over two years too. BUT, I've also progressed far faster than a LOT of other brewers out there.

Do you realize how many guy who've been brewing for 1+ year think this?

 

[Airborneguy]

What exactly is "far faster than a lot of other brewers out there" and how do you determine that anyway?

 

[gcdowd]

I batch sparge but I double batch sparge contrary to most opinions today that a single sparge is all that is necessary.

Rev.

In the spirit of this thread, you are doing it all wrong. There is absolutely no reason to double sparge. One sparge is totally enough. This isn't the 80's anymore.

Totally kidding of course. : ban:

 

[Rev2010]

Come on guys, can we drop the challenging going on and get back to the thread topic? Who cares about how long one has been brewing? In Golddiggie's defense I'll say one may possibly advance faster when they read and discuss constantly to absorb as much info as possible, brew frequently, and test various methods they've learned to see the differences. I can't see how anyone cannot see a difference between someone brewing 4 batches a year as a casual hobby for 20 years and someone who does 40 batches a year for two years. What is it that a length of time makes someone better or wiser than someone doing it for less time but far more frequently? I just don't get the mentality. Going back to my earlier comments in relation to music - he who practices and learns guitar every day will most often be more advanced a player in a few years than the guy that just plays covers on the weekends for 20 years.


Rev.

 

[Golddiggie]

Do you realize how many guy who've been brewing for 1+ year think this?

But how many have it actually confirmed??

 

[bobbrewedit]

This is one change I'm considering...I currently fly sparge just because its the way I was originally taught. I'm reluctant simply because my mash efficiency is nice and stable, but might just try it next batch.

Edit: lol...topic changed fast!

 

[Brulosopher]

But how many have it actually confirmed??

Confirmed?

 

[Rev2010]

This is one change I'm considering...I currently fly sparge just because its the way I was originally taught. I'm reluctant simply because my mash efficiency is nice and stable, but might just try it next batch

What efficiency do you usually get? With my Barley Crusher mill and double batch sparging I am getting a consistent 81% efficiency on every batch outside of mainly wheat based batches - which I will from now on be tightening my mill gap to compensate and see if that resolves it.

@Brulosopher - maybe he won some awards or something...


Rev.

 

[bobbrewedit]

What efficiency do you usually get? With my Barley Crusher mill and double batch sparging I am getting a consistent 81% efficiency on every batch outside of mainly wheat based batches - which I will from now on be tightening my mill gap to compensate and see if that resolves it.

@Brulosopher - maybe he won some awards or something...

Rev.

That's funny, my numbers settled at 81 to 82% when I started passing the grain through the mill twice. Before I was getting 75% and I figured running it through the mill twice is easier on the mill than closing the gap even further. So 81% is what I plug into beersmith.

Edit: I also use a BC mill.

 

[Golddiggie]

What efficiency do you usually get? With my Barley Crusher mill and double batch sparging I am getting a consistent 81% efficiency on every batch outside of mainly wheat based batches - which I will from now on be tightening my mill gap to compensate and see if that resolves it.

What's the gap setting on your BC? Don't go too far since you'll get grain stuck in the mesh of the bazooka screen (been there, done that). Or just use some 'insurance' and toss in rice hulls into the mash.

@Brulosopher - maybe he won some awards or something...


Rev.

I don't feel the need to justify myself to someone who's got a hair across his *****. I've not entered any competitions, but I also don't need that to feel validated. I've had tons of people (other home brewers and non-home brewers alike) give high marks on what I'm making. That applies to both beer and mead.

 

[Rev2010]

What's the gap setting on your BC? Don't go too far since you'll get grain stuck in the mesh of the bazooka screen

I set it to credit card thickness - 0.030". I will only be setting it tighter for wheat.


Rev.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

Unfortunate this thread has started to wobble a bit as it's been excellent. Especially with Revvy dropping some knowledge. I come in on the BIAB side although I think that's a case where it's more of parallel path than one way being better or worse. For me, it was easier cleanup and less equipment. I'm looking to move to an electric system and will keep it single vessel BIAB because it works for me and again, less equipment to mess with and clean. Throwing a hook in the ceiling and a pulley is pretty simple to handle any size grain bill. That said, I wouldn't claim it to be better than 3 vessel, just another way of getting it done.
There was a Basic Brewing that experimented on mash conversion and I seem to remember that they showed conversion was done in 15 minutes in some cases and it was diminishing returns to mash longer. Not sure why I've been doing 90 min mashes and its an area I want to experiment on and help shorten my brew day. For efficiency, the biggest gain I've seen is when I recently dropped my mill down to .030. I've jumped about 8 points from double crushing at the wider setting.
A lot of this discussion reminds me of my early career. I started out as an engineer and was frequently told by the old timers how my idea was tried 10 years ago and wouldn't work. Sometimes that's the case, but there have also been fabulous advances in chemistry, science, and technology in the last 10-20 years. You never know when an old idea might now work thanks to improved raw materials and/or technology. There aren't any advancements unless you're willing to challenge the status quo. Maybe it's stubbornness or stupidity, but I've always liked to prove it to myself rather than trusting "this is the way we've always done it".

 

[Hanso]

That's why I find it funny when folks say there's nothing but junk and bad info on the internet...actually the best info is on the internet, on forums like this, BECAUSE SOONER OR LATER IT GETS PEER REVIEWED....actually it nearly gets autmatically peer reviewed when folks back it up or reject it. And the info becomes state or the art....because we're doing it.

To be clear (and I know you're not saying this)... It is also not true that all things on the internet are scientifically or academically valid. You'll find plenty of "peer reviewed" forums based on a shared belief system where the entire community of peers are scientifically illiterate. Anti-vaccination sites, creation science, etc. No single outsider is going to swoop in and "correct" them.

 

[Hanso]

But I think it's dimished the role of "experts" when you find out that everyone is actually an expert.

And having a different opinion, or different experience than someone doesn't make that person's ideas any more or less valid...they're just different.

This is a very dangerous idea if applied outside of brewing. Diversity of opinions is vital for truth seeking, but treating all opinions as valid without regard to the rigor of process for obtaining the opinion is a sure way to believe and do a lot of dumb things.

 

[Rev2010]

Unfortunate this thread has started to wobble a bit as it's been excellent.

Thank you for your positive opinion on the thread. The hostility earlier was reported and hopefully dealt with, according to a Mod, so we can all proceed on with the discussion.


Rev.

 

[iambeer]

Some aspects of this thread reminds one of the argument "Why Wikipedia is a not a valid source of information". And, as every decent person knows, it's not.

But it is a valid source of references. Cause the references are right there. Check yo references.

HBT may be full of info, but it lacks references.

The best advice I've read here is: try it yourself.

It's not a slower process. It's a more reliable process.

John Palmer is proven unreliable and his sources were invalid.

But it's okay because his book is a consumer grade hobby book.

It's not a professional reference on brewing, which would be reliable and validated. When you spend $200 on a book, you are paying for the hard work that went into validating the information, and the folks that know how to validate information professionally.

 

[Brulosopher]

Some aspects of this thread reminds one of the argument "Why Wikipedia is a not a valid source of information". And, as every decent person knows, it's not.

But it is a valid source of references. Cause the references are right there. Check yo references.

HBT may be full of info, but it lacks references.

The best advice I've read here is: try it yourself.

It's not a slower process. It's a more reliable process.

John Palmer is proven unreliable and his sources were invalid.

But it's okay because his book is a consumer grade hobby book.

It's not a professional reference on brewing, which would be reliable and validated. When you spend $200 on a book, you are paying for the hard work that went into validating the information, and the folks that know how to validate information professionally.

Wikipedia is actually quite accurate: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1038_3-5997332.html

 

[Jon73]

I think it's great that there seems to be no "facts" associated with this. 60 minute boil vs. 90? Who knows? BIAB vs. picnic cooler? What works for you? 15 minute mash conversion vs. 60? Who knows what works?
It took me a long time to get comfortable with the information that I needed to learn and now it is almost laughable how flexible brewing is. That's not to say that I am not one huge anal a**-ho*e when it comes to repeatability, but if you do the same thing, every time, even if it is totally different from the other guy, it doesn't seem to matter how you do it, it'll work out.
I don't quite remember who started this thread, but it has turned out to be quite a brilliant discussion. I expect I'll get some heat from the "experts" that have been home brewing for 30 years over the "facts" comment, so I will clarify here: Yes, there are facts associated with brewing, I am well aware of that, but there is no ONE way to brew. And really, if the information changes in as close of a time range as 30 years, perhaps our facts have not quite reached that status and are still theories. Eff it. Brew beer. I don't care if you've been brewing for 50 GD years or 3. If it's good, awesome! Okay, I've had enough of my own beer and BS, so I will sign off for tonight and hope you all have a wonderful evening.

 

[kingwood-kid]

I think the 60-minute mash and boil is primarily a result of the tyranny of round numbers. To the extent that there's a trend towards longer boils, I would say a lot of that is a result of needing to boil off more water to yield stronger worts. I've found that for most of my beers, 40 minutes works fine for both mash and boil.

 

[Revvy]

HBT may be full of info, but it lacks references.

Many of us try to provide references in the information we give. I try to back up as much of what I write with other sources.

And as to your asertion about 200 dollar professional text books out there with invalid, or plainly outdated information. Ask any professor of medicine if that 200 dollar surgery textbook written 30 years ago still has merit today.

The best thing to do is to take information, ANY INFORMATION, in and try it for yourself.

 

[AnOldUR]

Ask any professor of medicine if that 200 dollar surgery textbook written 30 years ago still has merit today.

The best thing to do is to take information, ANY INFORMATION, in and try it for yourself.

Hope your heart doctor didn't read 30 year old text and try it out on you.









. . . joking, I do agree with the point you're making.

 

[Revvy]

Hope your heart doctor didn't read 30 year old text and try it out on you.









. . . joking, I do agree with the point you're making.

Actually the cool thing about my surgeon, though I didn't benefit from it, is that he is at the cutting edge of the future of this kind of valve replacement in the US. That's one of the reasons that I got a pig valve instead of an artificial one while at the same time one of our other members who had the same surgery got an artificial one, and had to go on kumadin.

The future arc of this surgery is that when I need it replaced in 15-20 years it will be outpatient surgery, they'll go in through the fermoral artery, supposedly grab some tissue from somewhere else in the body, and build and install the replacement valve right in place.

Totally non invasive, no rib cracking and home the same day, or the next one.

I was his last surgery before he and his entire team flew to Germany where they're pioneering this type of heart surgery, to train with them. Then he came back and replaced a valve on a kid in a totally different less invasive way than he did mine. It wasn't like I describe above, but it was much less invasive than mine.

I asked him why I wasn't the beneficiary of this, that I would have waited a week longer, and he said that I had been considered, but unfortunately there was more damage around the valve than they could handle less invasively. He said that if they had started on me that way, when they saw the calcification around the valve, they would have opened me up anyway.

But he was still confident that that would not hinder a non invasive replacement of mine down the line. It was cool though he literally released from the hospital me and headed for the airport.

 

[dzlater]

I had an uncle who brewed his own when I around 5 years old...would have been late 70's I guess. Sure wish he was still alive to pick his brain!

The only issue I have with most of these posts is the guys with 15 years of brewing experience are not the only ones making comments in most threads...Its easier for a new guy to read a book and trust that book, than to come on a site like this where any Tom Dick or Harry can post some lame comment and pass it off as fact. To me, the books and articles form a foundation, something you can at least partialy trust, even if it's not always fact and is later retracted.

I agree with you on this.
Sure maybe some of the info in these books has been disproved.
But if you follow the guide lines in the books you have a good chance of making a tasty beer. So the book may say to avoid hot side aeration, don't squeeze a grain bag, or transfer to secondary.
Though these things may not be critical, they are certainly not going to harm the beer.
If I knew nothing about brewing , and came to this forum to learn how, I would be confused as hell and probably give up.
If you look at posts where some one says they know nothing about brewing, usually the firsts response goes something like, " read Palmer's, How to Brew "
No one says go to the Beginner"s Forum and read 65,284 topics.
Believe me I've learned a ton about brewing from the internet, but don't disregard books and magazines as useless or harmful information.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

I agree with you on this.
Sure maybe some of the info in these books has been disproved.
But if you follow the guide lines in the books you have a good chance of making a tasty beer. So the book may say to avoid hot side aeration, don't squeeze a grain bag, or transfer to secondary.
Though these things may not be critical, they are certainly not going to harm the beer.
If I knew nothing about brewing , and came to this forum to learn how, I would be confused as hell and probably give up.
If you look at posts where some one says they know nothing about brewing, usually the firsts response goes something like, " read Palmer's, How to Brew "
No one says go to the Beginner"s Forum and read 65,284 topics.
Believe me I've learned a ton about brewing from the internet, but don't disregard books and magazines as useless or harmful information.

I generally agree also. I got interested in brewing and read Palmer's online book. There's nothing necessarily "wrong" in there it's more that it's inefficient I guess. Moving your beer to secondary after a week or so generally won't hurt anything (especially since most of us are properly obsessed with sanitation), it's just a step that doesn't HAVE to be done knowing what we know now. That saves time on a transfer and on cleaning an extra fermenter.
Before I started I also started exploring around HBT and you're right, definite information overload. I learn by doing, not as well by reading so I wasn't really ready for the advancements and improvements I was reading about on here until I got some extract and kit beers done in a Palmer-esque style under my belt. After that, my sciency brain started asking, "why do I do it this way, is there a better way," and then the topics on here and on Basic Brewing start making sense. Within a year I moved on to all grain BIAB.

Back on the topic of boil times. A lot of the talk has been about longer boils, but I think something that would go against the previous wisdom is the ability to do a 15 minute boil extract batch with late hopping and the fact that extract only needs a minimal boil. That was probably considered a big no-no 10-15 years ago. I haven't tried one yet, but it is an attractive option as I find my brewing opportunities harder and harder to come by.

 

[bovineblitz]

Confirmed?

Consensus of a large homebrew club, for example?

 

[theveganbrewer]

The end of this thread should be a massive HBT homebrew competition and the one winner will get a book published describing his or her techniques and opinions on the hobby.

 

[Pappers_]

P

The end of this thread should be a massive HBT homebrew competition and the one winner will get a book published describing his or her techniques and opinions on the hobby.

There has been a BJCP recognized HBT competition for the last few years. I'm sure there's a thread on last year's award winning beers.

Edit: here's the thread from 2011 https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/2011-hbt-bjcp-competition-winners-recipes-238903/

 

[iambeer]

And as to your asertion about 200 dollar professional text books out there with invalid, or plainly outdated information. Ask any professor of medicine if that 200 dollar surgery textbook written 30 years ago still has merit today.

The best thing to do is to take information, ANY INFORMATION, in and try it for yourself.

I never made that assertion. If you are doing to spend $200 on a professional book it's going to be the latest edition, not something from 20 years ago. That twenty year old edition is going to be in the dollar bin.

Trying things yourself is a good way but we don't have to reinvent the wheel. Learning everything without references is backwards thinking.

 

[bmeyer46]

as long as you sanitize, give your yeast something to eat, and don't dump the yeast into boiling wort, I think you will come out with alcohol...may not be good, but it will still be alcohol!
I brew what I like to drink, yeah, it's probably not award winning, but until I get to the point where I would think about competing, I'm fine with my beer.