That sour taste... from GUINNES... how to get it?

[Barão]

That sour taste ... characteristic of GUINNES ... how to get it?

.... acidified malt ... lactic acid ... sour wort

 

[DuncB]

I'm not sure what pH Guinness isout of the tap, never had my meter with me in the pub.
But all of the option you mentioned are tried and tested.

 

[suprchunk]

There was a suggestion in this thread.

 

[millstone]

This is another site that might help you. --> link

 

[Barão]

Este é outro site que pode te ajudar. --> link

Muito obrigado... era isso que eu queria

 

[khannon]

There was a suggestion in this thread.

Did you just link to a thread that links back to this thread? Seems pretty helpful...

The link in millstones post is a good way to go. Though popular lore (iirc) is they would add beer from a previous batch at some point, this provided that distinctive sour note.

 

[cactusgarrett]

For a 5gal batch, take two cans/bottles of Guinness and put them in a jar and foil the top. Let sit 4-6 days to sour, then put the resulting liquid into the boil with 10min left.

 

[Bilsch]

My guess is it's sauergut. However not just any SG, but instead one made with the unfermented Guinness wort, onsite. This is the same well known process as other European breweries do to make SG in their own reactors.

 

[lumpher]

Deleted. Post was for the old way they used to do it.

 

[Barão]

A Guiness azeda 4% de seus grãos ante

I did not understand, explain better

 

[Bilsch]

Guiness kettle-sours 4% of its grain before the boil.

Which is an apt description of making sauergut. If Guinness actually does it with grain solids, it would need to be fully gelatinized and converted before souring and then no grain or grain particles could be added back to the boil, only filtered liquid. Why would a brewery go through all that rigamarole? Why not just sour a portion the wort from a standard lautered mash, to a specific lactic content and then add the correct amount near the end of the boil to adjust the knockout pH and flavor? I mean that is sauergut and how it works in a brewery.


Breweries like this are notoriously cagey about giving accurate descriptions but prefer to say something which is not quite the exact process, is weak on details but close enough to get the idea across.

 

[lumpher]

Which is an apt description of making sauergut. If Guinness actually does it with grain solids, it would need to be fully gelatinized and converted before souring and then no grain or grain particles could be added back to the boil, only filtered liquid. Why would a brewery would go through all that rigamarole? Why not just sour a portion the wort from a standard lautered mash, to a specific lactic content and then add the correct amount near the end of the boil to adjust the knockout pH and flavor? I mean that is sauergut and how it works in a brewery.


Breweries like this are notoriously cagey about giving accurate descriptions but prefer to say somehting which is not quite the exact process, is weak on details but close enough to get the idea across.

Yep. I did some more research, and they USED to kettle-sour some grain. Looks like now they just add a small % of already soured Guiness, or as you say, Sauergut.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Trouble with trying to replicate commercial beers is that there are aspects that just don't really translate, like Guinness' use of barm beer, intensely bitter beer recovered from the yeast presses, as well as (in the distant past) OBS, Old Beer Storage.

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/guiness-clone.90810/#post-969728

 

[beren]

Or just at some lactic acid when done.

 

[Barão]

Or just at some lactic acid when done.

Do you know the dose? .... moment of application?

 

[beren]

https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/dry-irish-stout#Adding_that_sour_Guinness_twang

 

[Barão]

https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/dry-irish-stout#Adding_that_sour_Guinness_twang

thanks...that was what i was looking for

 

[Beerstein]

Do you know the dose? .... moment of application?

I used 4ml lactic in my clone, and that mildly sour. I wouldnt go higher.

 

[mashpaddled]

Which is an apt description of making sauergut. If Guinness actually does it with grain solids, it would need to be fully gelatinized and converted before souring and then no grain or grain particles could be added back to the boil, only filtered liquid. Why would a brewery would go through all that rigamarole? Why not just sour a portion the wort from a standard lautered mash, to a specific lactic content and then add the correct amount near the end of the boil to adjust the knockout pH and flavor? I mean that is sauergut and how it works in a brewery.


Breweries like this are notoriously cagey about giving accurate descriptions but prefer to say somehting which is not quite the exact process, is weak on details but close enough to get the idea across.

You're just describing the sour mash process more common to homebrewers (and some pro brewers) in the 90s and 2000s before we figured out it was way easier to just sour lautered wort.

Why do it that way? It had been done that way for a long time, the same way acid rests were more common before people figured out acid malt, adding lactic acid, or sauergut was easier and faster.

 

[Barão]

I used 4ml lactic in my clone, and that mildly sour. I wouldnt go higher.

Thank you ...... at what time do you apply the lactic acid .... and for how many liters

 

[Bassman2003]

On another note, I have found the sour hints in relation to the "Guinness" yeast. I used to brew a lighter colored ale with WLP 004 and it had sour hints just like Guinness.

 

[Beerstein]

Thank you ...... at what time do you apply the lactic acid .... and for how many liters

I used 4ml for a five gallon batch as the acidifier in the mash water. The sour taste works its way through to the final product.

 

[Beerstein]

On another note, I have found the sour hints in relation to the "Guinness" yeast. I used to brew a lighter colored ale with WLP 004 and it had sour hints just like Guinness.

I read some where that some distilleries use the Guiness yeast. Not sure where I read that.

 

[Barão]

Usei 4ml para um lote de cinco galões como acidificante na água do purê. O sabor azedo chega ao produto final.

thanks

 

[Bilsch]

You're just describing the sour mash process more common to homebrewers (and some pro brewers) in the 90s and 2000s before we figured out it was way easier to just sour lautered wort.

Why do it that way? It had been done that way for a long time, the same way acid rests were more common before people figured out acid malt, adding lactic acid, or sauergut was easier and faster.

No actually I'm not.

Making Sauergut is different then simply souring a mash. It is done with some amount of runnings from a mash, anaerobically and at higher temperatures to select certain lacto strains. This process is very common in German and Czech breweries and the flavors it generates are unique and specific to sauergut. The TUM yeast bank Freising holds two lacto strains (TUM L1 and L2) specifically for this purpose.

In a large commercial brewery souring the whole mash just to gain a little acidity would be completely cost inefficient, hard to control as well as problematic for contamination. Making a separate small batch of sauergut in a dedicated reactor with a known lacto strain then adding a small amount of that back in the main boil is cheaper, easier and far more reproducible.

 

[Bilsch]

Or just at some lactic acid when done.

The problem is lactic acid has no flavor. Sauergut on the other hand is very complex and there is no way to approximate that with technical acids. The good news is it's not terribly hard to make. There is some amount of instruction available on the net as well as a nice video on how to make it by a member here Bassman2000.

 

[neale]

Martin Keen did a video on this a while back and seemed to get good results.

 

[Hanglow]

It's lactic acid they use in the production of Guinness Essence.

And if you want to try and follow their process, high gravity brew and source some roast barley syrup. Or just brew a better tasting stout I'm still partial to the various FES ones though

 

[Bassman2003]

I do not agree with the video's 1st two approaches as I think he is speaking of "tart" instead of "sour". In my view, the Guinness flavor has a bit of curdled milk flavor. Actual sour is in off instead of tart.

 

[Barão]

Martin Keen did a video on this a while back and seemed to get good results.

thanks

 

[Bilsch]

The third approach is rather stupid. Just leaving wort sitting around for three days is asking for trouble. No specific inoculant, no temperature control, no pre adjusting the pH to avoid nasties. Simply hoping what ever falls out of the air into the wort is lacto shows a complete lack of understanding this topic.

 

[Bramling Cross]

For a 5gal batch, take two cans/bottles of Guinness and put them in a jar and foil the top. Let sit 4-6 days to sour, then put the resulting liquid into the boil with 10min left.

Damn, that's some clever....assuming they don't pasteurize.

 

[youngdh]

Acid malt is what I use.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Damn, that's some clever....assuming they don't pasteurize.

Yeah, I've done it and it works. Haven't done a side-by-side, but I like the results.