Tart of Darkness

[skeezerpleezer]

Negative. Chips are essentially shavings. cubes are; well; cubes. chunks are literally chunks of a whole log of oak (look into barbequing - you can buy a smoker that uses whole wood, chunks, chips, pellets or shavings - each is different in size).



THESE are oak chunks:



http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00H6V9EQM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

BTW. What is negative? I said I assumed the OP meant chips instead of chunks. Am I wrong in knowing what my own assumptions were? I did not say the assumption was fact. But based on normal wood offered at brew supply stores and the fact he said he heard "chunks" leave more tannins than cubes, it didn't seem like a bad assumption that he meant chips instead of chunks. I clearly said chips have more surface area, trying to offer some decent feedback on why they were different. I don't recall saying chunks had higher surface area.

 

[mors]

BTW. What is negative? I said I assumed the OP meant chips instead of chunks. Am I wrong in knowing what my own assumptions were? I did not say the assumption was fact. But based on normal wood offered at brew supply stores and the fact he said he heard "chunks" leave more tannins than cubes, it didn't seem like a bad assumption that he meant chips instead of chunks. I clearly said chips have more surface area, trying to offer some decent feedback on why they were different. I don't recall saying chunks had higher surface area.

I think he meant negative as in 'no, your assumption is wrong' since he thought you were referring to his post as it was directly above yours...

Negative = no

 

[jmcm_brew]

Heath did you end up bottling yet.. Waiting for mine to condition a bit if you want to swap when yours is ready


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[skeezerpleezer]

Mine just passed 20months since brewing. It's been on oak about 6-8 mo. Used ECY20 (Bug County). It's ready to bottle, just need some motivation.

 

[jmcm_brew]

Mine just passed 20months since brewing. It's been on oak about 6-8 mo. Used ECY20 (Bug County). It's ready to bottle, just need some motivation.

Damn!


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[Cadrian]

Chunks are another story entirely.... I would think chunks that have no bark have less surface area that a comparable weight of cubes and WAY less than a comparable weight of chips.

I contemplate this as I sip a 2013 bottle of the authentic ToD.... Wow - the lactic sour kick is high on this compared to Rodenbach Grand Cru and way higher than Jolly Pumpkin La Roja. Right up there with Oude Tart (my favorite) just in stout form!!!

So my 5 gallons can sit on these chunks http://morebeer.com/products/bourbon-oak-cubes-2-oz.html for another 5 months and probably be ok?

sorry for late reply other laptop crashed

 

[jmcm_brew]

Mine sat on those chunks for
4 months and I'm liking the amount of oak I'm getting


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[MollyHatchet]

I was thinking of putting my TOD on bourbon soaked chips for four to six months. I enjoy the bourbon oak flavor.


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[FredTheNuke]

Mine sat on those chunks for
4 months and I'm liking the amount of oak I'm getting


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Mine will be on oak for a year. My oak prep and amount is key. You must boil new oak cubes for 5-10 minutes which removes a lot of the new oak power (to simulate a used barrel). Hen soak in bourbon for 6 months. Add to ToD at rate of .15 oz by weight per gallon (per American Sours book). I went a tad strong on my addition.


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[FredTheNuke]

Mine will be on oak for a year. My oak prep and amount is key. You must boil new oak cubes for 5-10 minutes which removes a lot of the new oak power (to simulate a used barrel). Hen soak in bourbon for 6 months. Add to ToD at rate of .15 oz by weight per gallon (per American Sours book). I went a tad strong on my addition at 1.5 oz in 5 gallons (boiled 10 mins and soaked in bourbon for 6 months using medium plus toast american oak cubes).


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[jmcm_brew]

Mine will be on oak for a year. My oak prep and amount is key. You must boil new oak cubes for 5-10 minutes which removes a lot of the new oak power (to simulate a used barrel). Hen soak in bourbon for 6 months. Add to ToD at rate of .15 oz by weight per gallon (per American Sours book). I went a tad strong on my addition at 1.5 oz in 5 gallons (boiled 10 mins and soaked in bourbon for 6 months using medium plus toast american oak cubes).


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The oak I used and the link above were chunks from a bourbon barrel so no need to boil and soak in bourbon.. Opening the package and smelling smelled like I put my nose in a bottle of bourbon





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[MollyHatchet]

I bought this bottle back in January while I was in New Jersey. I started my clone of this on 7/22/14, and it bubbling along nicely. I really I joy this, but was surprised the body and mouth feel was a little thin. I also tossed the dregs into my batch, visually it didn't seem to have an impact on the fermentation. Still an enjoyable drink, and hope mine is somewhere in the same ball park.


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[skeezerpleezer]

If you just brewed it 7/22/14 I wouldn't expect much change from adding dregs--or much souring from the original yeast/bacteria for that matter.

 

[dyqik]

Right, I'm about to brew this, using the morebeer kit. From this thread, I'm going with mashing at 158F for 60 minutes, mashout, fly sparge, 60 minute boil then into a carboy with a smack pack of Roselaere for what will seem like ages...

EDIT: So, the Morebeer kit is showing much lower efficiency on my system than usual - I think I've seen similar comments on Morebeer's kits giving low efficiency elsewhere. The kit says it is calculated for 75% mash efficiency - I usually hit 75% brewhouse efficiency and 82-84% mash efficiency using the mill at my LHBS (although this is only my second RIMS brew). I think I got 68% brewhouse efficiency for this kit.

Brewed 05/17/2014

Tried a sample today and took a gravity reading. Around 1.015 (didn't degas the sample properly). Taste is just roasty enough, starting to sour, but nowhere near the sourness of the original beer. Obviously no oak yet. At this point it could be an acceptable bretty sweet stout, if it had a decent carb level, but it's not really sharp or funky yet. Got the rest of the gravity sample in the fridge for tasting later.

This has been sitting in a carboy in a milk crate on my basement floor, covered in a black trash bag to keep the light off. Basement temperatures have been a consistent 68-71F, with the cool summer. No pellicle that I can see, but the krausen did leave a lot of debris on the carboy (and get into the airlock), so I can't see the top of the beer easily.

 

[MollyHatchet]

If you just brewed it 7/22/14 I wouldn't expect much change from adding dregs--or much souring from the original yeast/bacteria for that matter.

Kind of what I was thinking, and did see ANY difference what so ever. Since it started there has a been a Krausen rise and fall about three times.


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[bnairuni87]

I was blown away with the original ToD I had this weekend and just finished reading Tonsmeire's American Sour Beers.

My used 5 gallon bourbon barrel arrived and I am going to age a porter in the barrel for a few weeks and then put in my ToD clone. I have a question:

1. Anyone completed the full cycle in an oak barrel?

Since it is going to sit for at least a year, I am concerned the oak/bourbon maybe too strong.

Thanks in advance.

Brent

 

[smokinghole]

I don't have a TOD clone going but I do have a higher abv bigger body brewed beer going with ECY02 in a 15 gal barrel. My barrel is waxed except one head and I've had this 1.092 gravity beer sitting for a year now. When I received this barrel I gave it a couple solid rinses to get much of the overwhelming spirit character out. Then I let two bottles worth of rum soak/evaporate in it in a hot attic. I then filled it again with hot water and plopped a 1.120 RIS in it for six months or so. Then I rinsed it and added this current high gravity black sour thing (low IBU RIS?) it's been in the barrel for a full year at this point. The oak is not noticeable is you ask me. Then again I got most of the char/spirit character out already giving me a fairly neutral barrel for these very full flavored dark beers.

You might want to age your porter until it has whatever character you want, then give it two good hot boiling rinses. I left each hot rinse sit for at least a couple hours. If you want more bourbon flavor just add some bourbon when you bottle it, that's how I look at it at least. I feel the bourbon is way to prominent in so many BBA beers. If I wanted that much bourbon flavor in my stout or barley wine I'd just dump bourbon in my glass.

 

[sweetcell]

Since it is going to sit for at least a year, I am concerned the oak/bourbon maybe too strong.

+1 to everything smokinghole said. a year in a 5 gallon (AKA small) barrel is probably too long unless you wax it. that's a lot of oxygen intake.

 

[bnairuni87]

Thanks everyone. How many of you added sour cherries to ferment and has anyone added a sour cherry liquid concentrate?

 

[smokinghole]

I thought about adding some to a 5gal portion of what I have in my barrel now. I have some whole frozen cherries from last year. The local orchard's sour cherry crop this year was wrecked by the weird spring weather we had in PA.

 

[FredTheNuke]

I have 12 quarts of this in my deep freezer waiting to be added to many brews.... I'll know the answer in 6 months or so.

http://kingorchards.com/product/case-12-quarts-sale-montmorency-tart-cherry-juice-concentrate/

 

[The_Nid_Hog]

The ToD clone that I brewed on 11/10/13 has been sitting at 1.014 for almost two months so I decided to bottle it today. Shooting for 2.0 volumes of CO2, and I packaged it in crown capped Champagne bottles.

The Better Bottle that I've been aging it in had a nice, thick layer of dried cherries and buggy muck in the bottom, so I filled it back up with a fresh Belgian Dark Strong Ale that I knocked together from stuff I had around the house. Now everything can start all over again.

 

[FredTheNuke]

Did you add fresh Sacc or go with just the bugz?


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[The_Nid_Hog]

I added 2 g of Lalvin EC-1118, just in case the old sacc was too tired out. The new Belgian went in on the old dregs, but I added a package of T-58 for the same reason. Within 12 hours, it was off to a furious start so it looks like things are doing well.

Apart from the Champagne bottles, I filled up eight old 11.2 oz Belgian bottles that I had saved. This is the first real sour that I've bottled, so I'll use that to periodically check on carbonation and development of the beer.

 

[FredTheNuke]

Did u feed it bottling sugar?


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[The_Nid_Hog]

I did, to carbonate to 2.0 volumes.

 

[Rootski]

I'm interested in brewing this beer in extract. I'm trying to put together a recipe based on reading through this thread and other sources. Steeping grains are my question, and specifically the flaked oats. When steeping, what should be included? I'm thinking the flaked oats should not be steeped. Is there any alternative to flaked oats in an extract version of this recipe?

 

[sweetcell]

I'm thinking the flaked oats should not be steeped. Is there any alternative to flaked oats in an extract version of this recipe?

yup, oats should be mashed.

wiliams brewing makes an oatmeal stout extract: http://www.williamsbrewing.com/WILLIAMS-OATMEAL-STOUT-EXTRACT-33-LBS-P3480.aspx

you could look into using that for part of your recipe. they also sell an 8 pound bag.

 

[youreanimpulse]

Why not just add some base malt to your steep and make it a partial mash? No extra equipment or skills necessary, just get it around 150 and let it sit for 45 mins or so. Post your extract recipe and I'm sure we could help you convert to a small partial mash.

 

[Rootski]

Why not just add some base malt to your steep and make it a partial mash? No extra equipment or skills necessary, just get it around 150 and let it sit for 45 mins or so. Post your extract recipe and I'm sure we could help you convert to a small partial mash.

Thanks for the help and idea. My equipment is what it is at this point. I did just get a free brand new 5 gallon water cooler so I could use that to mash in, but I'd probably need to do it in a bag, I also have plenty of 5 gallon paint strainer bags. So, I suppose I could do my first all grain beer if it'd fit in a 5 gallon cooler. The grain bill looks large on this recipe (the one posted on the second page of this thread, copied below) so it might not fit in a 5 gallon cooler. I could always substitute DME for some of the American Pale I suppose. How should I modify this recipe given my limitation of a 5 gallon cooler?

Grain:
10 lbs American Pale
1 lb Crystal 60L
1 lb Flaked Oats
8 oz Black Roasted
6 oz Chocolate

Hops:
.5 oz Czech Saaz (60 minutes)

 

[youreanimpulse]

I put it in my software to convert and got 5.2 lbs extra light LME and 2 lbs 2-row as a substitute for the 10 lbs at 60% efficiency (fairly conservative).

You can easily do a partial mash with your normal brewing pot just like a steep. Your bag may need to be bigger, but you could always just use a strainer. Here's how I do it in my kitchen:

Put the 2-row with the other specialty malts and flaked oats in your pot at 155 or so, stirring until it's 150 and then cover and put in the oven with the light on and leave it for 45 mins to an hour. Stir again then either take out the bag or strain the grains to get your wort. Then extract brew as usual. No need to use the cooler. Hope that helps!

 

[Rootski]

Thanks. My brew pot is 8 gallons so I'll have to see if it fits in the oven, otherwise I'll just figure out a different way to maintain the temperature.

 

[youreanimpulse]

Gotcha, just wrap it in a blanket. Or leave it. It can fall a little bit in temp.

 

[Austin_]

a year in a 5 gallon (AKA small) barrel is probably too long unless you wax it. that's a lot of oxygen intake.

I bottled my ToD clone the other day. It had been in an unwaxed five gallon barrel for nine months. I pulled it for two reasons. One is I'm moving and I don't want a barrel full of beer sloshing around in a moving truck while going across the country. The second is the oak taste was starting to hit that spot where more would have been detrimental to the final taste. I had used the barrel twice before this batch for clean beers, so I thought most of the oak and bourbon would be zapped from the barrel, but I guess 9 months allowed the ToD clone to pull out the last little bit.

I didn't have any problems with oxygen and acetobacter, though that doesn't mean I wasn't always worrying about it. It was always in the back of my mind and I was ready to pull the beer if acetic acid started getting out of control.

 

[Rootski]

I've settled on a recipe and will hopefully be brewing this beer within the week. My question is now about fermentation temperatures. I do not have a chamber yet (I'm working on that), but have a couple of options. Right now I have a room at a steady 67, and one at about 70 or 71. These rooms should stay that temperature for another month before the weather gets colder and they start to cool down. They could get down to 60 through most of the winter. Should I start fermenting in the warmer room for a few weeks and then move it to the colder room for long term storage? What temps seem to be best for Roeselare?

 

[Rootski]

Update - I brewed this beer with a couple of modifications yesterday. It was my first all grain so I decided that I didn't want to wait for the sour bugs before drinking. I up'ed the hops to 1 oz Fuggle and used 1968 yeast based on a recommendation. Assuming this comes out well, I'll brew it again with Roeselare and back off on the hops based on the original recipe.

 

[FATC1TY]

I'm brewing up a ToD this weekend as well.

Going to use ECY02 Flemish, and a vial of Yeast Bay Melange to ferment/funk/sour.

Once it's close, I'll toss it in a 4th or 5th use 5 gallon bourbon barrel I have at the house and let it pick up some goodness.

Plan to split the batch, age half with tart cherries and more bourbon barrel aging as well.

 

[oldstyle69]

gonna brew this up tomorrow morning.

 

[Yourrealdad]

So I brewed this up last night and I have one question to ask that probably should have been asked before brewing.

Recipe says .5 oz of Saaz. In Brewsmith that gives me 9 IBUs. Is that the correct amount? It seems that most stout style recipes are around 20-75 IBUs with 40ish being the norm.

I am assuming that we have lowered the IBUs since the bugs don't like the hop oils?

Hope this turns out well and can't wait a full year

Thanks

 

[sweetcell]

Recipe says .5 oz of Saaz. In Brewsmith that gives me 9 IBUs. Is that the correct amount? It seems that most stout style recipes are around 20-75 IBUs with 40ish being the norm.

sure, but those aren't sour stouts. the rules change when you get bugs in the mix.

I am assuming that we have lowered the IBUs since the bugs don't like the hop oils?

depending on the strain, lacto can start to have problems when IBUs get above 10'ish. so that recipe sounds about right according to the "keep it under 10 IBUs" school of thought.