Tapping into existing drain pipe

[summerofgeorge]

I'm adding a sink to my basement for brewing and need to tap into an existing drain. I think the easiest thing to do would be use the drain pipe from the laundry room since that's exposed in the brewing area. Here's where the laundry drain comes into the basement from above:

The left shows the drain coming down through the floor and then drains to the left after a few 90s. The right picture is just to give an idea of where the pipe runs to the left towards the main drain. I'm trying to determine the best place to tap into this drain (i.e. least amount of work!). I'm thinking a wye fitting in there somewhere...not sure if it would be better to leave the 90s as is and tap into the drain to the left more with a wye that's off-center so the sink drain comes in parallel to the pipe running to the left. Or replace the 90 with a wye and have the sink drain come in from the right. I'm having trouble visualizing how it will all come together after cutting pieces out.

 

[summerofgeorge]

Wow...didn't realize it's been over a year and a half since I posted this. Life kinda got in the way for the brewery. Anyway, bumping this post. Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[sibelman]

I'm no plumber. These pics make it look like the planned wye is near the basement ceiling? That can't be right, though, because it needs to be below the brewery sink.

You also need to consider venting. But don't listen to me - hire a plumber!

Sorry I'm not really of any help. Best of luck with your project.

 

[IslandLizard]

It's hard to tell what we're looking at exactly.
Does the picture on the right show the area where the pipe goes into the basement floor?

The Wye should be inserted into the vertical part of the pipe, at a height that's below the bottom of the sink, of course.

 

[sbro]

I have only done enough plumbing to be dangerous (plumbed new kitchen addition, moved septic tank, installed new septic and well supply connections at the farm) but research rules and codes when I did and had most all work inspected.

That looks like 2" dwv and I don't see enough room in the vertical section for a sanitary tee to connect prior to the 90 degree bend. The horizontal after the 90 degree bend looks like you have room for a wye fitting but may need to move the hanger a bit. As far as adding a vent to this addition, it depends on how close the vent in the laundry is and how you plan to lift the waste from the sink (I assume you will have a tank and lift pump because these photos look like they are near the basement ceiling).

Supply water looks easy, but you need certain tools for this project. If you are not comfortable doing this type of thing, I would suggest getting a bid from a plumber.

 

[summerofgeorge]

Sorry, I should've specified that the brewery sink will be below the drain line shown in the pictures and will require a pump. The original pictures show the drain coming through the first floor into the basement ceiling. Once below the floor joists, the left turn takes this to the main house drain.

Here's a picture of the laundry plumbing that's above the original pictures (don't mind the stud right in front, I was taking a picture of something else during construction):

The sink drain is on the left and washing machine drain on the right. The drain in the middle is what was shown coming into the basement in the first pictures.

As far as adding a vent to this addition, it depends on how close the vent in the laundry is and how you plan to lift the waste from the sink (I assume you will have a tank and lift pump because these photos look like they are near the basement ceiling).

Venting was another question I had. How close would the new sink need to be to the laundry vent to not need one? Or will having a pump mean a new vent is needed regardless?

 

[Tom R]

When I installed my brewery sink I used an in-line vent.
Saved a lot of money and work.

This isn't my sink, just a photo I stole.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks, that explains much! ^

Venting was another question I had. How close would the new sink need to be to the laundry vent to not need one? Or will having a pump mean a new vent is needed regardless?

The sink will drain into a "sump" where the pump is located, yes?
That sump will likely need some vent to prevent the pump from sucking a vacuum.

For that you can tap into an existing vent if one is nearby. Perhaps the one from the laundry room, above.

Our home has a lower level with a 3/4 bathroom, which is all below-grade.
That bathroom drains into a (fairly small, 10-15 gallons) sealed tank below the floor, holding a powerful sewage ejector pump. The collected waste water gets pumped up (through a 2" PVC pipe) and drains into the sewer line, 5' above the lower level floor.

That ejector tank has its own vent which connects to the home's sewer venting system that eventually vents up on the roof.

 

[madscientist451]

Do you really need a dedicated brewing area in the basement? Looks like more hassle than it’s worth from here.

 

[sbro]

Take a look at the installation instructions of the automatic drain pump you plan to use.
I just randomly picked a drain pump and looked at the install directions. It specifically says not to use "one-way quick-vents or air admittance valves " so you will need to tie a vent into the unit downstairs and run it up to tie into an existing vent or new vent. You will also need 115 or 230v to the unit.
Your laundry vent is in the middle above the 2 sanitary tees. I assume that wall is finished now and would be difficult to access. If you did have access, I would run a 1.5" vent up left of the sink supply and then go right above the sink and washer overflow level to tie into that existing vent.

 

[Chris112]

Sorry, I should've specified that the brewery sink will be below the drain line shown in the pictures and will require a pump. The original pictures show the drain coming through the first floor into the basement ceiling. Once below the floor joists, the left turn takes this to the main house drain.

Here's a picture of the laundry plumbing that's above the original pictures (don't mind the stud right in front, I was taking a picture of something else during construction):
View attachment 843940

The sink drain is on the left and washing machine drain on the right. The drain in the middle is what was shown coming into the basement in the first pictures.


Venting was another question I had. How close would the new sink need to be to the laundry vent to not need one? Or will having a pump mean a new vent is needed regardless?

The best way to add this sink would be to tie into the existing laundry sink and use that line as a wet vent. You'd obviously need to cut the drywall and then also upgrade the existing sink horizontal drain line to a 2" pipe and ensure at least 1/4" of fall per foot of horizontal run. However, this wet vent is only allowed if the new sink is within so many horizontal feet of the existing verticle stack and with only so many turns. You can't have a wet vent configured for something If it's too far away, or around a corner with too many turns (more than 2 I think, depending on your code). If no wet vent, you would need to add an AAV or tie into the existing vent system up above, as others have mentioned. This way you're using a standard gravity drain and you don't have to use a drain pump system.

If the location of the new sink won't allow this and you're forced to go with the pump option, you need to follow the instructions on the pump regarding the connections and I don't think using an AAV would be allowed or recommended. Then there's also probably specific local codes about using a sewage or gray water pump in a dwelling so you should check that as well.

A less intrusive option might be to upgrade the laundry sink to a steel sink that's bigger?

 

[summerofgeorge]

Thanks for all of the suggestions. As other have stated, since this is below the house waste line and requires a pump, an AAV won't work.

Your laundry vent is in the middle above the 2 sanitary tees. I assume that wall is finished now and would be difficult to access. If you did have access, I would run a 1.5" vent up left of the sink supply and then go right above the sink and washer overflow level to tie into that existing vent.

The wall for the laundry room is finished but the other side is the garage so I could probably access the vent it without messing with the living space. It would still be a lot of work.

I guess another option would be to just run a new vent through the exterior wall of the basement and up to the roof. It probably wouldn't look too bad if I ran it right next to a downspout.

I also saw this pump that doesn't require a trap or vent:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-3-HP-Utility-Sink-Pump-LTS250A/301015850

I'd prefer a little bigger and something that could handle hotter water though.

 

[summerofgeorge]

I know I'll have to deal with the vent but back to the question on the drain...would it be better to replace the 90 with a tee/wye and have the new drain come in from the right like this:

Or leave the existing 90 and put the tee/wye to the left of it like this:

 

[summerofgeorge]

Do you really need a dedicated brewing area in the basement? Looks like more hassle than it’s worth from here.

When the alternative is not brewing at all, I'd rather go through the hassle. I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to brewing. If I have a dedicated area where I don't have to get everything out and put it away every time, I would have a lot more flexibility when I could brew. And the basement is the only place I have that could be dedicated.

This is also part of a longer term plan to also have a bar and bathroom. That's probably a few years away so I'm just trying to do the minimum now to get the brewing going.

 

[Stikius]

I know I'll have to deal with the vent but back to the question on the drain...would it be better to replace the 90 with a tee/wye and have the new drain come in from the right like this:

View attachment 844009

Or leave the existing 90 and put the tee/wye to the left of it like this:
View attachment 844010

I don't think the first one will be any good. Then what comes down from above can go both left (as it should) and right (which it shouldn't). The second picture look better. Keep in mind that the direction of the T must be "upside down" as in your picture.

 

[sbro]

Based on your longer term plan, I would say put in a proper tank and ejector pump. The location of this may be farther from your sink than first impressions. Look at the potential location of the bath and how that would be plumbed in as well.

Those joints are difficult , if not impossible to separate and reuse. Even if you do get one off cleanly, trying to replace the 90 with a tee-wye fitting would change the alignment of the 2 lines unless it had the same radius bend.
So tapping into the line left of the 90 would be the better choice.
Not sure of code as far as the ejector pump tapping into the waste line. There may be a minimum size pipe (3 or 4 " ) for the 2" ejector line to tap into. This means you may need to run horizontally to find a larger waste line to tap into or get closer to a vertical stack.

Here is one snippet out of the plumbing code:
"P3007.3.5Ejector connection to the drainage system.
Pumps connected to the drainage system shall connect to a building sewer, building drain, soil stack, waste stack or horizontal branch drain. Where the discharge line connects into horizontal drainage piping, the connection shall be made through a wye fitting into the top of the drainage piping and such wye fitting shall be located not less than 10 pipe diameters from the base of any soil stack, waste stack or fixture drain."

 

[madscientist451]

I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to brewing. And the basement is the only place I have that could be dedicated.

This is also part of a longer term plan to also have a bar and bathroom.

A quick search shows just an ejector pump starting at around $500 but that could go somewhat higher depending on what size pump and with electrical and plumbing connections. You’ll also need to install a venting system to get rid of the steam from boiling. What is your budget for the project?

 

[cbier60]

I did a very similar project ~18 months ago and paid a plumber way too much. In my case, I had to tap into cast iron pipes, so it was much more difficult than your PVC job.

I will try to post photos in the next few days to show how he tied into the vent and drain from the kitchen sink above. I bought and had him hook up this Zoeller Drain Pump Kit; with a 20% coupon and cash back, the pump was ~$250. It may be the middle of next week before I can post photos.

 

[summerofgeorge]

A quick search shows just an ejector pump starting at around $500 but that could go somewhat higher depending on what size pump and with electrical and plumbing connections. You’ll also need to install a venting system to get rid of the steam from boiling. What is your budget for the project?

I haven't really thought about a budget for the bigger project. I was hoping to brew in the space to get a feel for how I might want to lay things out. Even then, it could be at least a few years before the extra stuff happens and I just want to be able to brew now. It's been way too long!

 

[summerofgeorge]

So it's starting to look like what I thought might be a relatively easy project is turning into more than I care to deal with. I also have no idea what the long term layout is going to look like and don't want to do something now that would create problems down the road.

But with that said, after digging around the basement last night, I did have a few additional ideas, First, I forgot
that the old laundry room drain was just capped with a Fernco when we had the new laundry room built. This is down the wall from the other drain line. I would obviously have to trim this back due to the ductwork but I could tie into this with the pump drain pretty easily.

From what I could reach, this is what the piping looks like behind the wall:

Additionally, with the utility sink in the garage on the other side of the wall, could I just run the discharge pipe through the wall and have it drain into the sink? This is allowed with washing machines so I don't know if this would be any different.

I'm really looking for a temporary solution that doesn't break the bank so I can get a feel for the brewing space and plan out for the long term. Once I know where everything will go permanently, I'll be bringing in a plumber to make sure everything is done properly. I was hoping I could find a temporary solution to DIY.

 

[sbro]

utility sink in the garage on the other side of the wall, could I just run the discharge pipe through the wall and have it drain into the sink?

This sounds like the best temporary setup. That old laundry drain looks like a better permanent option too.

I was talking to a plumber yesterday about other things and ejector pumps came up. He commented about how they are very bad for septics due to the suspended particles passed to the septic that can flow out to the field before settling. He said this was an issue with many inspectors. I suppose it is better if you are on a city sewer connection where that is not an issue.