HambonesBrews
Member
I have brewed and bottled 6 batches and every brew has the same tangy, slightly cidery aftertaste. Any suggestions to rid my beer of this? Could it be the water?
Tangy aftertaste
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We need a LOT more infomation before we could even begin to help you. Recipes, process, how long you ferment for, at what temps, how long you bottle condition. Etc, etc.
We're good, but we're not brewing psychics.
We're good, but we're not brewing psychics.
HambonesBrews
Member
For instance, northernbrewers dead ringer extract kit, followed instructions to a t (http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/DeadRingerIPA.pdf). Primary for two weeks, secondary for ten days and bottle conditioned 2 weeks. Last bottle I drank had conditioned for 5 weeks (yes, me and my buds drank this whole batch in 3 weeks!). Aftertaste had subsided a little but still there. All have fermented around 72 degrees (maybe a little warm?). I have used a whirlfloc tablet and priming sugar for all of them, thinking maybe that has something to do with it. The beer is good so it's not really a problem but I'd like to get rid of that tang. You can see my progress at www.lukesbrews.blogspot.com. By the way Revvy, I have been on this site for about a year, brewing since April and you have cemented yourself as a legend in my mind! Cheers!
RugenBrau
Well-Known Member
Do you have a water profile?
HambonesBrews
Member
no, whats that and how do I get it? Use Charlotte city water.
HambonesBrews
Member
To Revvy, for instance...I brewed northern brewers dead ringer kit. Followed instructions to a t (http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/DeadRingerIPA.pdf)! Two weeks in primary, 10 days in secondary and two weeks in bottle. My last bottle was drank after 5 weeks of conditioning. Aftertaste had subsided but was still there. Fermented at 72 degrees, maybe a tad warm. Used whirlfloc and priming sugar on all batches, perhaps a contributor to the tang? The beer had been good so not a huge problem but would like to rid my brew of the aftertaste. You can see my progress at www.lukesbrews.blogspot.com. And Revvy, after a year on this site and brewing since April, you have cemented yourself as a legend in my mind!
LVBen
Well-Known Member
Based on this small amount of info, my first two guesses would be:
1. oxidation
2. water profile
HambonesBrews
Member
oxidation, explain? perhaps I should have posted on the beginners thread
LVBen
Well-Known Member
Well, if you introduce too much oxygen into your bottling process, you could get muted flavors. Malt and hop flavors would get canceled out and you could end up with dry/cidery flavors. The cidery flavor would be small at first (1-2 weeks in the bottle), but would grow over time.
HambonesBrews
Member
Given the fact the after taste has lessened with conditioning, doesn't sound like oxidation would be the cause. How do I get a water profile. Brewing a dunkelweizen tomorrow, what is my best choice for water? Distilled, purified, etc?
LVBen
Well-Known Member
I like to start with RO filtered water and then add what I need -a little bit of calcium chloride, phosphoric acid, and yeast nutrients at different stages of the brewing process.
HambonesBrews
Member
Wow. That is over my head! I work with in filtration sales so I understand RO and water quality, however, wouldn't know when/why to add any chemicals. That based on the water profile? If yes, how do I capture my waters profile, other than a caricature
HambonesBrews
Member
Wow. Over my head! I understand RO and water quality but wouldn't know where/why to add chemicals to the brew. Is that based on the water profile? If yes, how do I capture that?
LVBen
Well-Known Member
You could start with something like this: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html
HambonesBrews
Member
I thought I might be warm on the ferm temp. Is it better to keep it consistent at 72 or cool it down whenever possible to 66 (ice pack, wet towel and fan, etc) causing fluctuation in temp or keep it at the same temp, even if it is a bit on the high side?
LVBen
Well-Known Member
Oh, and you can usually get the water profile of your tap water through the utility company that handles the local water supply.
LVBen
Well-Known Member
Cool whenever possible. Fluctuation are OK as long as they are not too extreme, but you do want to stay as close to the desired temperature as possible.
Some cities, like mine, have a downloadable water quality report with all the pertinent info right on the City website.
superslomo
Well-Known Member
Check the fermentation range of the yeast. With the heat around here, my first batch (hefeweizen) came out a little odd tasting, but has settled down now after 3+ weeks.
Oddly, the bottles that fridge conditioned are worse than the ones that sat in the finished basement in the high 70's/low-80's for that whole time. Go figure... it was also something where I pitched the yeast way too warm as I didn't have enough time to wait.
Oddly, the bottles that fridge conditioned are worse than the ones that sat in the finished basement in the high 70's/low-80's for that whole time. Go figure... it was also something where I pitched the yeast way too warm as I didn't have enough time to wait.
Here's a page I found on off flavors,causes,& fixes;http://www.bblodge.info/Homebrew-Resources/off-flavors-in-home-brew.html It's handy to keep around...
I have been having this exact same problem. I'm not really sure how to describe the flavour, but my friends and I all agree that there is a residual sweetness on the finish. It's almost a sweet, tangy, cidery type of flavour. It's mild but it is definitely there. This has been the same across the board for every single brew I've made (IPA's, DIPA's, Hefe, etc).
For a little background info: I brew 5 gallon extract batches. I use bottled water. I ferment between 68 and 72 at the very highest. I am very cautious with oxidation while transfering to secondary or while bottling - never any spashing, etc. We wash, inspect and sanitize each bottle and cap.
For a little background info: I brew 5 gallon extract batches. I use bottled water. I ferment between 68 and 72 at the very highest. I am very cautious with oxidation while transfering to secondary or while bottling - never any spashing, etc. We wash, inspect and sanitize each bottle and cap.
What kind of extract do you use, and when do you add it to the wort?
Big-J2000
Active Member
Subscribing to this thread. I would love to hear the answer to this too. My brews thus far have been extract with steeping grains. I try to keep the fermentation temp between 68* and 72*, but have had a few spikes to 78*. I'm also careful with minimizing any splashing and I'm exceptionally anal about sanatizing. The only thing I could think of that was causing this for me was my water, which is bottled Zephyrhills spring water. I've got a belgian tripel kit from Brewer's Best bottle conditioning now, and the samples I've tasted had that same twang as in the rest of my beers.
It's more likely that it's aged/older extract and added at the beginning of the boil (just like the instructions say) so that it sort of "thickens" and carmelizes and gets twangy tasting.
To combat that, I'd not use the prepackaged kits and buy the ingredients fresh (a kit from AHS or northernbrewer.com is fine, as they package it up fresh when you order from bulk LME), and add the majority of the extract at the END of the boil, instead of the beginning. I'd also make sure the temperature of the fermentation never get above 72 degrees. It's hard in the summer, as most people don't have a 63 degree room to put their ales in, but it's really important!
Water profile is too easily blamed for simpler problems because, hey, it's easy to blame and not very well understood by most people.
But I should elaborate on what I meant by it being an acetaldehyde problem as a result of fermenting too hot.
I notice a lot of the people here are saying they ferment at 70-72°. I used to ferment at that temperature too (even lower, at 68°), and I had issues similar to what's being described.
Now, those aren't necessarily bad temps, though maybe a little warm. IF the temperatures being measured are of the actual wort during fermentation. When people say that you should ferment something at 70°, they are not talking about the ambient temperature of the room, but I get a feeling that most of the people here ARE. Since the yeast generate a TON of heat at the height of activity, a 70° room can mean an 80° fermentation, *precisely* during the time that is so critical to flavor development. And 80° is waaaay too hot for all but a few beers.
Temperature control is without a doubt the single best investment you can make in your beer, bar none. $75 on a chest freezer and temperature controller will have such a positive effect on your beers, that it's almost beyond comprehension until you see for yourself. Stick it in the garage, or even outdoors if you must... just FIND A WAY. If tomorrow I was suddenly forced to ferment my beers at room temperature, knowing what I know now, I would pretty much stop brewing, except for perhaps a big batch of saison a few times a year.
But I should elaborate on what I meant by it being an acetaldehyde problem as a result of fermenting too hot.
I notice a lot of the people here are saying they ferment at 70-72°. I used to ferment at that temperature too (even lower, at 68°), and I had issues similar to what's being described.
Now, those aren't necessarily bad temps, though maybe a little warm. IF the temperatures being measured are of the actual wort during fermentation. When people say that you should ferment something at 70°, they are not talking about the ambient temperature of the room, but I get a feeling that most of the people here ARE. Since the yeast generate a TON of heat at the height of activity, a 70° room can mean an 80° fermentation, *precisely* during the time that is so critical to flavor development. And 80° is waaaay too hot for all but a few beers.
Temperature control is without a doubt the single best investment you can make in your beer, bar none. $75 on a chest freezer and temperature controller will have such a positive effect on your beers, that it's almost beyond comprehension until you see for yourself. Stick it in the garage, or even outdoors if you must... just FIND A WAY. If tomorrow I was suddenly forced to ferment my beers at room temperature, knowing what I know now, I would pretty much stop brewing, except for perhaps a big batch of saison a few times a year.
emjay said:
Wow, I'm blown away. I didn't realize the internal temp would be so much higher than the ambient air. Is there a more precise way to measure this difference? Can anyone else confirm this? Is there any way to keep a thermometer in the wort while it ferments?
Also, in the absence of a chest freezer, what other options are there?
Those "stick on" thermometers are fairly accurate, since fermentation is churning and moving the beer around, you can get a good idea of the beer's temperature.
I have a couple of things I do for temperature control. First, I live in a cool climate which helps! My basement is cool, so I have my fermenters down there right now. The ambient is 66, but I put the fermenters on the cold floor and the fermenters (both of them) are fermenting at 69 degrees. I usually ferment cooler, but I wanted this to be 68-69 degrees.
I also use coolers and make a water bath. Then I just drop a frozen water bottle or two into the water bath, and it keeps the temperature right where I want it, usually 63 degrees. I made a new lid for my Igloo cooler out of foam, to insulate it:
I also have room in my kegerator for things I want really cold, like for lagering or for crash cooling.
When we talk about "fermentation temperature", we are talking about the actual temperature of the beer, not the ambient. I've personally seen an active fermentation be a bit more than 10 degrees higher than ambient!
+1
In addition to the temp control comments, in a few past extract brews (that were heavy on LME) I noticed a flavor I can only describe as "twangy". And there's been talk on here about "extract twang". Considering that I've used the same water for other brews and haven't had the problem, other extract brews and haven't had the problem, and maintain temps in the 65 range for most of my brews, my assertion is that the extract wasn't as fresh as it should have been.
I was having the same tangy problem for half a dozen batches and then on a whim I used an aluminum brew pot instead of the enamel pot that I had been using. The resulting beer had NONE of the tangyness and was head-and-shoulders above anything I had brewed.
I had read that using an enamel pot would work for brewing, but the pot I was using had large amounts of the enamel chipped from the bottom and I didn't realize at the time that this would make the pot inappropriate for brewing.
I don't know if your problem has the same origins, but I am confident that I have solved my tangyness problem with a new stainless steel brew pot.
Hope this helps, it has made my life a lot better.
I had read that using an enamel pot would work for brewing, but the pot I was using had large amounts of the enamel chipped from the bottom and I didn't realize at the time that this would make the pot inappropriate for brewing.
I don't know if your problem has the same origins, but I am confident that I have solved my tangyness problem with a new stainless steel brew pot.
Hope this helps, it has made my life a lot better.
Kaz
Well-Known Member
I would bet that its a) Fermenting too warm and b) slightly green beer. Until I started fermenting most of my ales in the mid 60's, I didn't care much at all for my beers, I'm much happier now that I built a fermentation chamber.
I'm trying to think of an appropriate solution to this problem. I live in a condo and don't have a lot of extra space. I don't have room for a freezer + SWWNBN won't have any of that. I would love to keep this solution affordable.
What type of ambient air temp would be required to keep the internal fermentation temp around the high 60f mark?
What type of ambient air temp would be required to keep the internal fermentation temp around the high 60f mark?
Research "Swamp cooler" - you can disregard ambient air temp using one of these. Cheap and has a small footprint.
+5000
I live on the 14th floor of a high rise in a small apartment and live on a tight budget. I use a 20 gallon tote bucket, and can fit two 6.5 gallon carboys in there, match the water outside to the level inside the carboy, and swap out gallon jugs filled with ice from the freezer. Cost efficient and effective. Can even hold down near 50 degrees with enough ice jugs and enough daily swaps (4 jugs, two in the freezer, two in the cooler, swapped every 8 hours worked for me for a 52 degree pseudo-lager). And the water keeps the temperature fluctuation to a minimum.
Thanks a lot for all of this info. I'm going to change my procedure and implement a new fermentation strategy for my next brew.
Because of the stupid venting in my small
Condo, and the need to keep my bedroom door closed, that room is actually 65f all year around. I figure if I build a swamp cooler in this room and bring the temp of the water down to 60ish I should get an internal temp in the mid 60's. Now I just need to get "her" approval.
Because of the stupid venting in my small
Condo, and the need to keep my bedroom door closed, that room is actually 65f all year around. I figure if I build a swamp cooler in this room and bring the temp of the water down to 60ish I should get an internal temp in the mid 60's. Now I just need to get "her" approval.
Big-J2000
Active Member
I brewed an AHS Cream Ale kit earlier this year that had the "twang" in it, but I did add all of the extract at the beginning. I will have to try adding it later next time. Any suggestions on when and what ammount? As for the fermentation temps, I put my carboy in a big bucket with water that I add frozen water bottles to as needed. The spikes usually occur when I neglect to switch out the bottles!
Cool that beer. I havn't brewed since june because basement temps went up too much. I have a fermentation chamber that is pretty much done, now I gotta get brewing the next cool day (thursday in the low 70's!)
I planned on continuous brewing all summer, but I didn't realize our basement gets so warm (76 currently). That won't be a problem with my big foam box and mini fridge I have enough room for 2 carboys in there, which is more than I need to brew anyway.
I planned on continuous brewing all summer, but I didn't realize our basement gets so warm (76 currently). That won't be a problem with my big foam box and mini fridge
I have enough room for 2 carboys in there, which is more than I need to brew anyway.Similar threads
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