Super light blonde color for IPA

[Little_Lebowski]

Last little question before you rule out pH (only because this is an elusive problem and we're having to check every possible nook and cranny). Do you adjust your pH readings for temperature? pH reads differently based on temp (like gravity), so for example, if you are measuring a 5.3 pH at mash temp, it may actually be 5.6-5.7 at room temperature. Depending on the actual numbers, this could or could not cause problems.

My meter is supposed to automatically adjust for temp. Whether it does or not I sure hope so

 

[m1k3]

As for the pils, I may look into that again. Used it once for a Gandhi not clone two years ago but even that was darker Amber color

100% Pils should not be "amber"

This beer is Pils + Mosaic SMaSH (but then dry hopped with 4oz Citra in 5 gallons).

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1468617627.653642.jpg

 

[JordanKnudson]

100% Pils should not be "amber"

I thought the same thing, based on his wording, but in a later post he mentioned that that beer had also used darker specialty malts, making that particular example of his moot as far as this thread is concerned.

 

[eric19312]

Any reason to suspect your grain source? Those all seem pretty orange for the grain bills mentioned. I do a direct fire mash which adds some caramelization and vigorous boil and still end up with this in a recipe that is 78% 2-row, 14% marris otter, 8% C20 and 5.9% ABV (1.055 OG).

Also I don't worry about HSA (I freely recirculate with exposure to atmosphere) and don't purge kegs with CO2 before filling.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

100% Pils should not be "amber"

This beer is Pils + Mosaic SMaSH (but then dry hopped with 4oz Citra in 5 gallons).

View attachment 362213

I don't recall saying 100% pils. I fact I did mention there were other specialty malts to get it to an orange color

 

[m1k3]

I don't recall saying 100% pils. I fact I did mention there were other specialty malts to get it to an orange color

It said you used Pils in the "Gandhi not clone". But no percentage.

Guess I was just looking for an excuse to show off that photo of my beer!
I love Pils and use it 100% quite often.

 

[arnobg]

Golden Promise.....end of debate.

 

[arnobg]

100% Pils should not be "amber"

This beer is Pils + Mosaic SMaSH (but then dry hopped with 4oz Citra in 5 gallons).

View attachment 362213

That looks and sounds delicious. I have a bunch of Citra and Mosaic to use, how did it turn out?

 

[Little_Lebowski]

I'm pretty sure after all the talk it's going to be a combination of getting raising my efficiency, controlling a hot rapid boil, and utilizing lighter malts... Specifically malted oats which I know the beers I'm drinking from TH are using

 

[hopbrad]

beer that is cloudy will look a bit lighter too. you mentioned tired hands. their hop forward beers are great. try using their yeast wyeast 1318 or conan, they notoriously dont floc well so you should get some cloudiness, along with the oat and wheat.
i thought o2 exposure could be your problem but since you keg and your process sounds good. make sure you purge the headspace too (if your not already doing so)
I still think Pils, wheat(or in this case, oats) and sub in .5-1lb of sugar will get you where you want. go for a lower abv like 5.5-5.8% range. big hop stand with mosaic, conan or wyeast 1318...a la tired hands type of brew.
i never thought of the scorching factor, but give a less strong boil a try too. 75-90 min boil with pils just to make sure.
give the Northeast style IPA thread a read.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

beer that is cloudy will look a bit lighter too. you mentioned tired hands. their hop forward beers are great. try using their yeast wyeast 1318 or conan, they notoriously dont floc well so you should get some cloudiness, along with the oat and wheat.
i thought o2 exposure could be your problem but since you keg and your process sounds good. make sure you purge the headspace too (if your not already doing so)
I still think Pils, wheat(or in this case, oats) and sub in .5-1lb of sugar will get you where you want. go for a lower abv like 5.5-5.8% range. big hop stand with mosaic, conan or wyeast 1318...a la tired hands type of brew.
i never thought of the scorching factor, but give a less strong boil a try too. 75-90 min boil with pils just to make sure.
give the Northeast style IPA thread a read.

All but one of the photos I posted above were 1318... The other one was Conan

 

[leesmith]

The automatic temperature compensation isn't meant for taking ph samples at mash temp. All samples should be done at room temperature....
Please refer to this thread if you need a better explanation of ph meter calibration:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256
IF you take a measurement in hot wort your not getting an accurate reading...ATC is not meant for that...your getting a false reading.

 

[hopbrad]

nice, my ipas look about your color. OG usually in the 1.064+- then bump it with some cane sugar to about 1.067-1.070. Usually 90% CMC 2-row, 10% CMC white wheat.
My hoppy Pale ales look similar to leesmith, 1.050-1.054 range. usually a combo of 2-row and pils with a touch of wheat.
edit: conan for my IPAs and S-05 for my pale ale
Curious to what your gravity was @leesmith for that beer.
when you figure out your problem lebowski, please update, always nice to learn something new!

 

[Jwin]

Here's my 48/48 white wheat/2row

Picture doesn't do that t justice
Probably should have turned another light on...

View attachment 1468641686233.jpg

 

[leesmith]

nice, my ipas look about your color. OG usually in the 1.064+- then bump it with some cane sugar to about 1.067-1.070. Usually 90% CMC 2-row, 10% CMC white wheat.
My hoppy Pale ales look similar to leesmith, 1.050-1.054 range. usually a combo of 2-row and pils with a touch of wheat.
edit: conan for my IPAs and S-05 for my pale ale
Curious to what your gravity was @leesmith for that beer.
when you figure out your problem lebowski, please update, always nice to learn something new!

Gravity for that beer is:
1.058 og
1.010 fg

 

[Little_Lebowski]

The automatic temperature compensation isn't meant for taking ph samples at mash temp. All samples should be done at room temperature....
Please refer to this thread if you need a better explanation of ph meter calibration:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256
IF you take a measurement in hot wort your not getting an accurate reading...ATC is not meant for that...your getting a false reading.

So he says... In many many many many words. If this is the case then what is the point of ATC in the first place?

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Earlier we were talking about vigorous boils and the +/- of them... Check out the video a couple posts down in this thread and tell me if you guys consider it to be vigorous or too vigorous or just right or what. I'll tell you for sure mine is not rolling that rapid at all. Somewhere smack in between simmering bubbles that what you see in the video is how I set mine

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=345229

 

[mlafnitzegger]

I get light color by using 2 row, corn sugar, and flaked oats... Also no more then 60minute boil.

 

[Jwin]

Earlier we were talking about vigorous boils and the +/- of them... Check out the video a couple posts down in this thread and tell me if you guys consider it to be vigorous or too vigorous or just right or what. I'll tell you for sure mine is not rolling that rapid at all. Somewhere smack in between simmering bubbles that what you see in the video is how I set mine

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=345229

I would consider that a very vigorous boil. Dial it back to just a bit of surface motion and see if that helps. I think the correct pH and dialing back the boil will get you what you are looking for. Just be sure to adjust for slightly less boil off. Unless you have the head space, then don't worry bout it

 

[govner1]

Take a look at the Four Peaks HopKnot clone

 

[leesmith]

So he says... In many many many many words. If this is the case then what is the point of ATC in the first place?

I trust Ajdelange's advice on using a ph meter. He did write the forward for the book Water: A Comprehensive Guide for Brewers by John Palmer and Colin Kaminski and I believe provide advice on that text also.

Below is my take away from reading Ajdelange's sticky and other sources provided in the article http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/PH_Meter. ATC provides a small compensation when testing a sample at the temperature the ph meter was calibrated at. So if it was calibrated at 20c and the sample has been cooled to 21c the meter will adjust. Most of these sources state that taking readings in mash temperature wort is bad for the meter and all texts written on beer ph should provide ph readings taken at room temperature.

I know I'm getting wordy here but Ajdelange explains the effects of temperature on ph very simply in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=518131.

In his 02-27-2015, 01:20 PM reply in the thread above AjDelange says, "Higher temperature implies higher pH so that your 5.25 at mash temp might be about 5.5 at room temp."


I know this picture is dramatic but Kai Troester's experimants in the post http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_pH_affects_brewing show the effects of ph on beer color:

 

[m1k3]

That looks and sounds delicious. I have a bunch of Citra and Mosaic to use, how did it turn out?

It's a great a great beer! I made it two months ago so the Citra dry hop is not as intense as it was 30 days ago.

I made a 15 gallon batch with 10# of Pilsner Malt per 5 gallons.
Two batches were Lagers (34/70 yeast and one was US-05)
The US-05 split is the one that got the 4oz of Citra Dry Hop (in primary at the end of fermentation)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 19.16 gal
Post Boil Volume: 17.16 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 15.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 14.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
Estimated Color: 3.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 40.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 79.2 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8.0 oz Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 1 1.6 % (not required)
30 lbs Pilsner (Schill) (1.7L Grain) 2 98.4 %
1.50 oz Magnum [14.00 %] - Boil Hop 3 24.8 IBUs
1 Item Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil Fining 4 -
3.80 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.3%AA Hop 5 12.9 IBUs
3.80 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.3%AA Hop 6 2.4 IBUs
2.0 pkg Saflager Lager 34/70 7 -
1.0 pkg Safale American US-05 8 -
4.00 oz Citra [12.0%AA] - Dry Hop 9 0.0 IBUs

Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 30 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 10.53 gal of water 154.5 F 60 min

 

[Little_Lebowski]

I trust Ajdelange's advice on using a ph meter. He did write the forward for the book Water: A Comprehensive Guide for Brewers by John Palmer and Colin Kaminski and I believe provide advice on that text also.

Below is my take away from reading Ajdelange's sticky and other sources provided in the article http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/PH_Meter. ATC provides a small compensation when testing a sample at the temperature the ph meter was calibrated at. So if it was calibrated at 20c and the sample has been cooled to 21c the meter will adjust. Most of these sources state that taking readings in mash temperature wort is bad for the meter and all texts written on beer ph should provide ph readings taken at room temperature.

I know I'm getting wordy here but Ajdelange explains the effects of temperature on ph very simply in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=518131.

In his 02-27-2015, 01:20 PM reply in the thread above AjDelange says, "Higher temperature implies higher pH so that your 5.25 at mash temp might be about 5.5 at room temp."


I know this picture is dramatic but Kai Troester's experimants in the post http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_pH_affects_brewing show the effects of ph on beer color:

Thanks for all the info! Looking through it now.

 

[leesmith]

Any update or findings here?

 

[Yooper]

I'm pretty sure after all the talk it's going to be a combination of getting raising my efficiency, controlling a hot rapid boil, and utilizing lighter malts... Specifically malted oats which I know the beers I'm drinking from TH are using

No, I'd stop using the EZ water spreadsheet first, as for me it's always been not even close to the actual mash pH. Try Brewer's Friend or Bru'nwater to compare the projected pH. The meter is suspect as well, if the readings are not taken at under 80 degrees or so. Cool your sample first, then take the reading. I use a small shot glass, and put it in a bigger glass of ice water while I stir, and the sample cools to 75 degrees in just about 2 minutes so it doesn't take long.

Your boil off rate seems exceedingly high. That is likely the cause of so many maillard (darkening) reactions. A rolling boil is good, but it doesn't have to jump out of the pot. A boil off of 1-1.5 gallons per hour is a good benchmark, unless you live in the desert where the dry climate would cause more boil off.

Plain US 2-row as an SRM of about 2, so it's definitely light enough to get a blonde beer.

 

[leesmith]

Post boil of the hop hands recipe. This is a 7.5 gallon kettle which I'm
Upgrading to a 15 gallon later this month (anything to do with it??). Also I collect about 6.5 into the kettle which is pretty close to the top and you can see where I ended up there. And that includes the displacement with the chiller submerged also

Have you measured your boil off rate?

 

[303Dan]

My bet is on pH. I've read more than a few articles that indicate malliard reactions are stronger at higher pH levels. The fact that you're measuring your pH without cooling the samples first may contribute to those measurements being inaccurate, in combination with an aggressive boil, could definitely lead to darker than predicated SRM in your beer. Just my 2 cents. I get those very light straw colored IPA's regularly, even with some small amounts of specialty malts. Generally, what Beersmith spits out as my predicted SRM is spot on.

 

[Upthewazzu]

Sorry, didn't read all 7 pages, but did you find the recipe you're looking for? I made this pale ale a couple weeks ago, forgot the grain bill/hop schedule but I can send it to you later if interested (abv was ~5.5% and IBU's was ~45):

 

[grassfeeder]

2 row, white wheat and "flaked" oats has always given me super light color. Hell, I've even added C20 and received Trillium and Treehouse like coloring.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Brewed last weekend and really controlled the temp to an easy boil but a boil none the less. I also collected all but 7 gallons into my 7.5 gallon kettle which is where I was screwing up in the past too. I was scared to collect too much wort from the mash for boil overs but I'll have a larger pot as of tomorrow.

And to put the pH thing to rest, EZ water has been nothing but gold for me up till now. The calculations have been right on Secondly regarding the temp correct for the meter... I measured the pH with the meter at like 10 different temps per collection ranging from 150F to 70F and my pH readings were identical across each temperature.

I'm very confident this ones gonna come out nice and light. It's +\- 5% abv from a malt bill of 60/40 2row and white wheat. My fermenter actually has the appropriate volume this time as well instead of a concentrated volume where I didn't collect enough from the sparge.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Sorry, didn't read all 7 pages, but did you find the recipe you're looking for? I made this pale ale a couple weeks ago, forgot the grain bill/hop schedule but I can send it to you later if interested (abv was ~5.5% and IBU's was ~45):

That's definitely the color I'm looking for. Send over the recipe

 

[grassfeeder]

this is 13# 2-row with 1.5# pounds of white wheat, 1.5# of flaked oats, and .5# C20, 1# of carapils and .75# of dextrose. mash was 5.2-3 ph

 

[Little_Lebowski]

this is 13# 2-row with 1.5# pounds of white wheat, 1.5# of flaked oats, and .5# C20, 1# of carapils and .75# of dextrose. mash was 5.2-3 ph

Not quite what I'm after. It's a bit murky and more on the orangish brown side, which to this point I've had zero trouble getting to this color. That yellow up above on the previous post is right what I'm looking for

 

[crusader1612]

Not quite what I'm after. It's a bit murky and more on the orangish brown side, which to this point I've had zero trouble getting to this color. That yellow up above on the previous post is right what I'm looking for

Check out this: Its on my list of beers to brew.
If it was me go 80/20 Pilsner/Wheat to 1064
Removing any form of specialty malts malts it'll stay nice and pale, and nice and dry as well (depending on mash temp).

 

[Upthewazzu]

That's definitely the color I'm looking for. Send over the recipe

9.5lb Pale 2-row
1lb white wheat
1lb vienna
1.25oz centennial @60
1oz simcoe @5
.75oz centennial @1
1oz Mosaic dry hop
1oz Centennial dry hop
Wyeast 1332 Northwest Ale w/1.2L starter
OG:1.053
FG: 1.011
ABV: 5.5%
SRM: 4.2
IBU: 43.3

Mash @150
I do a low boil, almost a simmer for 60 min.
Fermented very warm @ 72°F for one day, then lowered to 68°F for 9 days.
Dry hopped for 5 days.

It's ridiculously good.

 

[grassfeeder]

Not quite what I'm after. It's a bit murky and more on the orangish brown side, which to this point I've had zero trouble getting to this color. That yellow up above on the previous post is right what I'm looking for

true, but mind you I used C20 in that recipe with 007 white labs. if you strip those two out it would have been that color. Also, iPhone camera at night doesn't help.

 

[leesmith]

Brewed last weekend and really controlled the temp to an easy boil but a boil none the less. I also collected all but 7 gallons into my 7.5 gallon kettle which is where I was screwing up in the past too. I was scared to collect too much wort from the mash for boil overs but I'll have a larger pot as of tomorrow.

And to put the pH thing to rest, EZ water has been nothing but gold for me up till now. The calculations have been right on Secondly regarding the temp correct for the meter... I measured the pH with the meter at like 10 different temps per collection ranging from 150F to 70F and my pH readings were identical across each temperature.

I'm very confident this ones gonna come out nice and light. It's +\- 5% abv from a malt bill of 60/40 2row and white wheat. My fermenter actually has the appropriate volume this time as well instead of a concentrated volume where I didn't collect enough from the sparge.

Hope it works out. Looks like you got your volume issue resolved.
Please post some pictures or update when it's ready.

Also, what make and model ph meter do you own?

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Hope it works out. Looks like you got your volume issue resolved.
Please post some pictures or update when it's ready.

Also, what make and model ph meter do you own?

This one right here from thermoworks. Use their thermopop too and I can't believe I used to brew without either of them. They've both been fantastic so far.

Been a week in the fermenter and I can already tell it's gonna be a light one Going to brew a recipe I just read in craft beer and brewing next week which calls for pils 2row and wheat in that order with all citra hops. It's supposed to be like a Berliner IPA sorta thing. Sounded really tasty. Guessing it also has the potential to be pretty darn light too

I'm crossing my fingers that the formula for keeping these beers light are limiting the mailard reaction and boil off, keeping my volumes up to the desired levels: if I'm not getting my full volumes I'm actually getting a concentrated wort with the ratio of sugars to water higher then calculated and hence darker wort. This also falls under my efficiency issues as well. I've been using the blichmann floating sparge arm for 2-3 years now but lately I just seem to be missing the mark with my gravity. I've even slowed my sparge down as slow as I can go for about a 30 min fly sparge. I'm tempted to switch back to batch sparging next week.

 

[leesmith]

This one right here from thermoworks. Use their thermopop too and I can't believe I used to brew without either of them. They've both been fantastic so far.

Been a week in the fermenter and I can already tell it's gonna be a light one Going to brew a recipe I just read in craft beer and brewing next week which calls for pils 2row and wheat in that order with all citra hops. It's supposed to be like a Berliner IPA sorta thing. Sounded really tasty. Guessing it also has the potential to be pretty darn light too

I'm crossing my fingers that the formula for keeping these beers light are limiting the mailard reaction and boil off, keeping my volumes up to the desired levels: if I'm not getting my full volumes I'm actually getting a concentrated wort with the ratio of sugars to water higher then calculated and hence darker wort. This also falls under my efficiency issues as well. I've been using the blichmann floating sparge arm for 2-3 years now but lately I just seem to be missing the mark with my gravity. I've even slowed my sparge down as slow as I can go for about a 30 min fly sparge. I'm tempted to switch back to batch sparging next week.

Link to the ph meter didn't come through. I didn't know thermoworks made ph meters. Great company.

Sounds like your excited about this brew!

 

[kh54s10]

I think you are now on the right track. IMO it has little to do with your pH. (I have been brewing for 5 years and have yet to take a pH measurement.) It was that you didn't collect enough wort for the preboil amount, then you were boiling too vigorously and ending up with too little wort that was darkened by both, 1) not enough wort and 2) too hot a boil.

I have read more that a very vigorous boil is NOT necessary. If you have to drive off DMS it is usually done with a longer boil. It usually is only an issue when using pilsner malts. If you do a longer boil you will have to collect more wort to account for the longer boil off.

I think your problems will diminish greatly when you can boil in a larger pot.