Strange taste in all my beers. What am I doing wrong?

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

OK, so I cracked open the first beer I've tried from my fourth batch. This bottle carbonated for two weeks and has sat in the fridge for 4 days. I plan to let the rest sit at room temperature for a total of three weeks, and then in the fridge for at least a week.

I'm disappointed in this beer though, and a little frustrated, because it has this unpleasant taste I've noticed with other beers that I've made, and I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. It's hard to explain the taste: maybe twangy, caramel, cardboard, or possibly even metallic. It's hard to describe, exactly. Bad, though. I noticed this taste to a highly objectionable degree in an earlier beer that I made, one I bottled back in August. It hasn't gotten any better, and I have separate reason to think that it's oxidized. (The auto-siphon gurgled like crazy.) Since the other beers I've made with this flavor probably weren't oxidized, I now think that maybe the oxidized batch also had this objectionable flavor in addition to being oxidized.

All of the beers have been extract recipes with specialty grains. They've all been IPA recipes. I've tried to get as close to a full boil as possible in a 5 gallon pot--around 4 gallons--and I've added most of the extract at the end. I think I've done a decent job with temperature control; they don't really taste fruity. According to my hydrometer, they've been decently attenuated. Each of the recipes have come out significantly darker than they're supposed to be, even though I added the majority of the extract at the end of the boil. I now question the quality of the recipes to some degree--they all involved steeping between .75 and 1 pound of some kind of crystal malt, mostly C60. They were all recipes from Northern Brewer purchased by mail some time in July or August.

The beer I'm drinking now, if it stays like this, is drinkable, but it's not very good. Maybe it will improve, but if the oxidized batch I tried earlier is any indication, I'm not optimistic (since I haven't ruled out oxidation as a problem in all three of the batches; I just have good reason to think that the one batch really was oxidized as this point). I probably wouldn't bother trying to brew beer is this is the best I can expect. I'd like to know what I'm doing wrong so that maybe I can improve or get rid of this taste. Some people will say: switch to all grain. I don't want to invest more money into this hobby to buy equipment without some measurable success, which I'm not sure I've really had at this point.

I've tried to improve every conceivable thing I could think of--oxidizing, adequately pitching hydrated yeast, temperature control, getting rid of the defective auto-siphon that came with the kit, replacing my tubing. Here are some hypotheses that I can't rule out:
1. Despite my best efforts, everything has been oxidized. I'm using plastic equipment and doing a 3 week primary/no secondary schedule.
2. Extract twang, though I've ordered from a big online supplier with quick turnaround and done late extract additions.
3. Burner set too high on the stove. Maybe that's scorching or caramelizing the extract. I'm not really sure what I could do differently with this, because I think my wort wouldn't even boil if I set it lower. Maybe I need a brew kettle with thicker walls? I don't see any scorching at the bottom of the kettle when I clean it out.
4. Copper wort chilller: I use one of those. Could that be leaching some weird taste into the beer?

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

One more thing: the only non-IPA I've made so far has been a saison. That beer is a bit under-attenuated, but it doesn't have whatever weird off-taste these IPAs have had. It also didn't involve steeping any specialty grain. It was all extract.

 

[petrolSpice]

How long have you let them condition in the bottles? Bigger beers generally need more time to condition for the off-flavors to fade. They won't go away completely, but can improve with time. Some of the bigger beers I make sit in the bottles for a minimum of 2 months at room temp, if not warmer.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

How long have you let them condition in the bottles? Bigger beers generally need more time to condition for the off-flavors to fade. They won't go away completely, but can improve with time. Some of the bigger beers I make sit in the bottles for a minimum of 2 months at room temp, if not warmer.

The beer I just drank sat in a closet around 70 degrees for 2 weeks, and then in a fridge for 4 days. It seemed hazy but adequately carbed. For the rest of this batch, I plan to have them in the closet at room temperature for at least 3 weeks (I'll move the first full six pack this Saturday, at the three week mark), and then in the fridge for about a week.

It was also a session IPA, at around 5% abv. None of the other beers have been particularly big beers.

 

[Yooper]

If it's common to all beers, the first thing to think about is what is common to all of them, and it is probably water.

Did you use tap water? Or bottled water? Reverse osmosis water?

If you used tap water, was it city water with chlorine? That could easily be the cause. There are other things besides chlorine that can be an issue- high bicarbonate, iron, etc- so if you are using tap water that would be the place to start.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

If it's common to all beers, the first thing to think about is what is common to all of them, and it is probably water.

Did you use tap water? Or bottled water? Reverse osmosis water?

If you used tap water, was it city water with chlorine? That could easily be the cause. There are other things besides chlorine that can be an issue- high bicarbonate, iron, etc- so if you are using tap water that would be the place to start.

Yeah, good point I had forgotten about. I use a campden tablet when I'm boiling water. I'm under the impression that I could go all distilled, since I'm brewing with extract. Otherwise, I guess I'm getting double the minerals in my wort.

The guy at the local homebrew store complained about the water quality in West Philadelphia over this past summer--specifically, that there was tons of chloramine in the water. I thought I was addressing this with campden tablets, but maybe that's not enough.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

your describing by first 5 beers after moving into the city from well water, "twang" and what fixed it was water treatment.

so first as mentioned a campden tablet then I started using high carbon water filters, never had that flavor again

 

[2trout]

Water.

Next batch go with the RO machine at the grocery store(if there is one.) With extract you will have enough minerals etc. in the extract. 1 batch will likely tell you if its your water.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

Yeah, you know, now that I think about it, that saison I brewed was half tap water and half spring water from Poland Spring as top-off water. It doesn't seem to have detectable levels of the offending taste.

What should I be doing to treat my water? Can I just go all distilled for my next extract batch? Is it OK to steep grains in distilled water? I can worry about a long-term fix like getting a filtration system later once I've isolated this as the problem.

 

[skraeling]

any thoughts to fermentation temps?

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

any thoughts to fermentation temps?

Yeah, so the first beer I ever brewed fermented too high. It had weird fruity off-flavors that diminished over time. It ended up tasting alright after about 5 weeks in the closet and a week in the fridge.

Since then, I've brewed in a cool brewing bag, keeping the temperature somewhere between 60 and 68. To be honest, I'd take what I interpret as estery or phenolic flavors over this taste.

 

[Yooper]

Yeah, you know, now that I think about it, that saison I brewed was half tap water and half spring water from Poland Spring as top-off water. It doesn't seem to have detectable levels of the offending taste.

What should I be doing to treat my water? Can I just go all distilled for my next extract batch? Is it OK to steep grains in distilled water? I can worry about a long-term fix like getting a filtration system later once I've isolated this as the problem.

Yes, all distilled or all RO (reverse osmosis) water is perfect for brewing. I've seen RO water machines at big stores that are something like 40 cents a gallon, so that would be the way to go if you have one available. It's a bit of a pain hauling 6 gallons of water around, but that should tell you in one batch if that is the issue.

 

[2trout]

If you do have an RO machine at your local grocery, they can be very cost effective.

 

[JJ900]

Couple of other thoughts depending on what you figure out:

- you can get a fairly easy to install under the sink carbon filter from home depot or similar for about $50.
-consider the next kit you buy to be one that is supposed to be very highly regarded and if that comes out poorly then you know you are doing something wrong and its not just the choice of kit. 2 of my first 3 batches were disappointing but the Pliny the Elder clone from NB really was excellent. Great Fermentations has an excellent Zombie Dust clone.
-I think my problem was temp control in addition to water; make sure you are keeping your fermenter temp well under 70.

 

[petrolSpice]

Yes, all distilled or all RO (reverse osmosis) water is perfect for brewing. I've seen RO water machines at big stores that are something like 40 cents a gallon, so that would be the way to go if you have one available. It's a bit of a pain hauling 6 gallons of water around, but that should tell you in one batch if that is the issue.

I've read/been told not to use RO water because it lacks the proper level of minerals and what not, unless you add them back in. Maybe this is true only for all grain?

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

I've read/been told not to use RO water because it lacks the proper level of minerals and what not, unless you add them back in. Maybe this is true only for all grain?

I think it's fine either way. It's just that you'd need to add minerals back in to the water if you're brewing all grain, since you need some minerals to be in the wort. If you're brewing with extract, the minerals from the wort the extract was made from get concentrated into the powder or liquid that you use. So if you're using enough extract for your entire batch, then you could use pure RO or distilled water without any brewing salts.

If you're not brewing a beer with lots of dark grain, I wonder if you don't want your water to be a little alkaline, though? Otherwise, the water might be a tad acidic. I looked at another thread that mentioned that extract beers brewed with distilled water turned out to be a little tart. Tap water, as I understand it, is slightly alkaline, while distilled water/RO is probably neutral. That sounds like going pretty deep down the rabbit hole to me, though. I'll probably try distilled or RO on my next batch and see what happens.

 

[Sadu]

I have had similar off-flavours in many brews (all-grain) and have not totally got to the bottom of it. In my case it's only some beers, generally lagers, generally above 6% ABV. The taste is a rich malty twang, almost alcoholic. The beers generally had high attenuation as well. They are drinkable but you know the flavour is there and would rather it not be. I thought it might be oxidation initially but now I'm thinking that my cheap temp probes are reporting incorrectly and I have been fermenting too warm.

I don't know if this is similar to what you describe, it may or may not be, but it might be worth verifying your fermentation temps aren't too high by way of bad temp probes.

 

[Yooper]

I've read/been told not to use RO water because it lacks the proper level of minerals and what not, unless you add them back in. Maybe this is true only for all grain?

No, that's not so. RO water is perfect for all brewing.

Often, sulfate or other flavor salts are added but they are not strictly necessary since malt has plenty of things like magnesium.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

No, that's not so. RO water is perfect for all brewing.

Often, sulfate or other flavor salts are added but they are not strictly necessary since malt has plenty of things like magnesium.

Interesting.I was always under the impression with RO water you need to add minerals and play with water chemistry..So your saying if I wanted to see if my beer will taste different/better I can simply use plain RO water.

 

[Yooper]

Interesting.I was always under the impression with RO water you need to add minerals and play with water chemistry..So your saying if I wanted to see if my beer will taste different/better I can simply use plain RO water.

You can.

Something like a pilsner (lager) is made with water very much like RO water and it sells well commercially.

For other beers, the reason it's customary to add salts is because they are for flavor, just like you might use onions and garlic in your spaghetti sauce- it might be a little bland without adding the "seasonings"- the salts- in an AG batch. Still, you will get a good beer and maybe even great. The salts are added for the flavor impact- chloride brings a fullness or roundness to the beer, while sulfate enhances a dry finish. So those are "to taste" and not necessary for good mash conversion or yeast health.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

You can.

Something like a pilsner (lager) is made with water very much like RO water and it sells well commercially.

For other beers, the reason it's customary to add salts is because they are for flavor, just like you might use onions and garlic in your spaghetti sauce- it might be a little bland without adding the "seasonings"- the salts- in an AG batch. Still, you will get a good beer and maybe even great. The salts are added for the flavor impact- chloride brings a fullness or roundness to the beer, while sulfate enhances a dry finish. So those are "to taste" and not necessary for good mash conversion or yeast health.

Would it work with an ALE?

 

[Atlmustang]

I have bought gallons of spring water and distilled at the store. Brewed the same beer with each of them. Tasted exactly the same. Found out the water where I live is pretty clean so now I use tap and its just as good as the distilled and spring.

Honestly, you may be over thinking it. Try the distilled, spring or RO if your tap water is bad...which in west Philly I suspect is indeed the case.

Throw one tbs. of Ph stabilizer per 5 gallons of water and brew on.

I used to get all caught up in reading everyones complicated measurements but live by the rules of good water and sanitization (star san is the only way to go) and you cant go wrong. Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS). Good luck! And update the thread and let us know if the change in cleaner water helps!

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

I have had similar off-flavours in many brews (all-grain) and have not totally got to the bottom of it. In my case it's only some beers, generally lagers, generally above 6% ABV. The taste is a rich malty twang, almost alcoholic. The beers generally had high attenuation as well. They are drinkable but you know the flavour is there and would rather it not be. I thought it might be oxidation initially but now I'm thinking that my cheap temp probes are reporting incorrectly and I have been fermenting too warm.

I don't know if this is similar to what you describe, it may or may not be, but it might be worth verifying your fermentation temps aren't too high by way of bad temp probes.

I don't think that this is the case for me. I use fermometers, but I also use a kettle thermometer to measure the temperature of my gravity samples (to adjust the hydrometer for temperature), and they both match up. So the temperature measurements are interreliable, but they're also robust since I use different methods of measuring them.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

I have bought gallons of spring water and distilled at the store. Brewed the same beer with each of them. Tasted exactly the same. Found out the water where I live is pretty clean so now I use tap and its just as good as the distilled and spring.

Honestly, you may be over thinking it. Try the distilled, spring or RO if your tap water is bad...which in west Philly I suspect is indeed the case.

Throw one tbs. of Ph stabilizer per 5 gallons of water and brew on.

I used to get all caught up in reading everyones complicated measurements but live by the rules of good water and sanitization (star san is the only way to go) and you cant go wrong. Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS). Good luck! And update the thread and let us know if the change in cleaner water helps!

It'd be nice to think about it less, but I'm not happy with the way that this beer has turned out, and I've tried everything else: nothing has been infected, the temperature seems alright, and I've taken steps to oxygenate before pitching and to pitch at a healthy rate.

My plan was to use 3.5 gallons of RO or distilled water and 1.5 gallons of tap water with a campden tablet. Everything I looked into to adjust the pH of distilled water seemed difficult. What do you have in mind for a pH stabilizer?

I mean, I have to go to the LHBS on Saturday anyway before I brew my next batch, so I can ask them what they think. The guy there did mention to me the bad water quality that we've seen over the summer.

Anyway, I will report back. The next beer I have to brew--the last of the kits I bought from Northern Brewer's IPA sale--is a black IPA. If using neutral pH water makes for a tart or acidic beer, I guess I'll know with this one. After that, I'm going to try at least one more beer using a partial mash with light DME to make up the difference before I throw in the towel and decide that making decent beer is hopeless.

 

[shortyz]

So you have done 4 batches and talking about quitting brewing. Sometimes we are our own worst critics of our beers, which is good but dont let that get you down.

Any veteran brewer has been through hundreds of brews and is still tweaking their recipes, its never perfect. Thats the fun of the hobby.

 

[Atlmustang]

It'd be nice to think about it less, but I'm not happy with the way that this beer has turned out, and I've tried everything else: nothing has been infected, the temperature seems alright, and I've taken steps to oxygenate before pitching and to pitch at a healthy rate.

My plan was to use 3.5 gallons of RO or distilled water and 1.5 gallons of tap water with a campden tablet. Everything I looked into to adjust the pH of distilled water seemed difficult. What do you have in mind for a pH stabilizer?

I mean, I have to go to the LHBS on Saturday anyway before I brew my next batch, so I can ask them what they think. The guy there did mention to me the bad water quality that we've seen over the summer.

Anyway, I will report back. The next beer I have to brew--the last of the kits I bought from Northern Brewer's IPA sale--is a black IPA. If using neutral pH water makes for a tart or acidic beer, I guess I'll know with this one. After that, I'm going to try at least one more beer using a partial mash with light DME to make up the difference before I throw in the towel and decide that making decent beer is hopeless.

Ph stabilizer is a product. It is a grainy white powder of sorts. Similar to the consistency of sugar. It's not complicated at all in regards to adding it to your water. It's as easy as just adding a tablespoon per 5 gallons of water. You add it to the water at the very beginning.

 

[Yooper]

Throw one tbs. of Ph stabilizer per 5 gallons of water and brew on.

Throw OUT pH stabilizer, and don't use it in your beer! Never, ever, ever, ever.

There are very lengthy explanations of why, but the short explanation is that it's a buffer and it just can't possibly do what it purports to do, and it can cause a bad flavor in beer. I did try it myself about 8 or 10 years ago, because I wanted a quick fix. But it is a useless product in 99.9% of the cases.

Some of the long reads:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=411452
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=536628&highlight=stabilizer (especially post #15)

 

[Iseneye]

I have bought gallons of spring water and distilled at the store. Brewed the same beer with each of them. Tasted exactly the same. Found out the water where I live is pretty clean so now I use tap and its just as good as the distilled and spring.

Honestly, you may be over thinking it. Try the distilled, spring or RO if your tap water is bad...which in west Philly I suspect is indeed the case.

Throw one tbs. of Ph stabilizer per 5 gallons of water and brew on.

I used to get all caught up in reading everyones complicated measurements but live by the rules of good water and sanitization (star san is the only way to go) and you cant go wrong. Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS). Good luck! And update the thread and let us know if the change in cleaner water helps!

pH stabiliser is crap, water chemistry is not complicated and does have an impact on beers.

 

[jcav]

Yooper's right RO water is the way to go. I use RO water as I am on a well and have to use RO water. I use the machine at the store and it's cheap where I am only $1.00 for 5 gallons. So I have my own 5 gallon jugs and I fill them up for my system (I make 11 gallons batches so I use a lot of water in my HLT, and mash tun depending on the recipe). If you don't want to get a water test on your RO water right away there is a simple way to add salts to get you in the ballpark.

Get a jeweler's scale https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F8OJPJU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 there are many cheap ones and get one that measures in grams. Then add:

1 teaspoon (4.2 grams) of Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) to the mash per 5 gallon batch for malty beers.

1 teaspoon (4.2) grams of Calcium Sulfate/Gypsum (CaSO4) to the mash per 5 gallon batch for hoppy beers.

For beers that are both malty and hoppy you can add a combination of both in whatever ration you think matches the flavor profile of the finished beer you are trying to make.

Some people also use 2 teaspoons of Calcium Carbonate/Chalk (CaCO) when mashing dark grains which is optional also. Again this is to get you in the ballpark WITHOUT a water test and your beers will taste very good with these concentrations of salts and RO water. I got this from Gordon Strong's book "Brewing Better Beer" so this is not something I made up. After that you can get a water test and fine tune from there. Good Luck!

John

 

[mongoose33]

pH stabiliser is crap, water chemistry is not complicated and does have an impact on beers.

I think that depends on your background in chemistry. I have little and it's been a bit of a struggle. I believe that's why you see things like Brunwater, EZwater, Beersmith's water app, and so on.

Those apps do make it easy to adjust water, at least, a lot easier than trying to do it as if you were a chemist.

They also allow for one to use tap water with a known profile (such as you'd get from Wards) and then adjust from that. Depending on the style, i might be using half tap water and half RO; 1 gallon tap water to 7 gallons RO; or even all RO with just a little amendment.

 

[ncbrewer]

Although water seems to be the most likely culprit, I think oxidation is still a possibility. Even opening the fermenter too much could be a problem. It would be a good idea to review your process, especially racking and bottling, to be sure you're minimizing oxygen after fermentation. This can be done along with your quest for better water.