Still making bad beer after 30+ batches.

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I wonder if you're brewing styles that you don't really like. Hoppy IPA'a if you don't really like hops, you just think you do? I've discovered that I like more balanced beers much better than the hop bombs I thought I liked.
 
z-bob said:
I wonder if you're brewing styles that you don't really like. Hoppy IPA'a if you don't really like hops, you just think you do? I've discovered that I like more balanced beers much better than the hop bombs I thought I liked.
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The beers I like the most (stouts and porters) typically turn out the worst.
 
"I then leave it as is for 4-5 weeks, I don't use a secondary."

I would say stop doing this. It is the only thing in your process that sounds questionable. I know that people say it's no big deal; it's safe to leave beer in primary for weeks, etc. - but I would change that up and evaluate if the results are different. Leave it in primary for 2 weeks, tops. What do you have to lose?

It would help to know how "extreme" your water treatment is, though. What predicted mash pH do you shoot for, and what kind of SO4/Cl levels do you adjust for? Do you have a recent stout/porter grain bill and water profile to share?
 
1. Purchase a new fermenter (bucket, better bottle, etc) they are cheap enough. If you have the funds, pick up a Speidel fermenter, these are my favorite fermenters, have very high user ratings, and I used to use them all the time before moving over to a stainless steel conical, I still have my speidels and plan on still using them. This is their 7 gallon one: https://www.morebeer.com/products/speidel-plastic-fermenter-30l-79-gal.html.

2. Purchase an all grain kit that has everything you need. These kits are "time tested" as a lot of people have brewed these with no issues and like the outcome. It seems like you have your yeast prep locked in. Are you pitching the yeast at the proper temps that are recommended and keeping them at that temp? Some yeast can get strained at certain temps and cause undesirable off flavors. The kits you get will have everything listed on what temps to keep them at. Get a couple of brews using a kit under your belt to really lock in your brewing techniques.

3. I didn't see it listed but, you said you use RO water and add stuff to build it up, have you tested the Ph of it? Is your water that bad that you have to use RO? I just run my water through some carbon filters to remove chlorine from it and that's all. I live in NY and our water is pretty good and my beers come out great using the water as is.

4. Are you bottling/kegging it too soon? You might be tasting "green" beer. I've had a pumpkin ale I made once that hit it's final gravity which stated it was "done" but when I sampled some from the fermenter, it had an off "medicine" taste to it. I left it in the fermenter for another month, tasted it again and it was perfect. Are you sampling your beers direct from the fermenter before kegging? If it has an off taste to you, leave it alone for another few weeks to a month to see what the outcome will be. Time sometimes fixes all beers.

Those are just some of the things I can think of and are my .02.
 
I have well water and wouldn't even think to use it in beer, it's extremely hard and has plenty of iron. I've purchased all of my water for the first 25+ batches or so and then went to R.O. $10 a batch for spring water was killing me. I've never tested the PH of my mash water. I used 5.2 Stabilizer for the first 25+ batches when using spring water. Now I add pickling lime or lactic acid depending on the grain bill. For a stout I calculate for a PH for 5.5 and a 5.3 for an IPA. My last failure is here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=359746

I've kegged beers after two weeks and I've also waited 6 weeks, no difference. I've also split a batch, bottled half and kegged half. The bottled beer still had the off-flavor 4 months later, although not quite as bad.
I've replaced all of my equipment that wasn't stainless, no such luck.
 
z-bob said:
I wonder if you're brewing styles that you don't really like. Hoppy IPA'a if you don't really like hops, you just think you do? I've discovered that I like more balanced beers much better than the hop bombs I thought I liked.
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mprowland said:
The beers I like the most (stouts and porters) typically turn out the worst.
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I'm still pretty new at this so take with a grain of salt, but that sounds to me like either a PH or a water issue.
 
Your process through fermentation sounds fine.

One more thing to rule out...try bottling a six pack and do a blind taste test with your kegged beer to rule out an issue with your keg setup.

I also wonder if you are overdoing the water treatment. Have you had the problem since you started doing RO with treatment, or were you having the problem before?
 
mongoose33 said:
I'm still pretty new at this so take with a grain of salt, but that sounds to me like either a PH or a water issue.
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Maybe PH, but I wouldn't think water would be the issue. I've purchased all of my water(spring) up until 5 batches or so ago. I've tasted the water on every batch and it tastes great.
 
Aristotelian said:
Your process through fermentation sounds fine.

One more thing to rule out...try bottling a six pack and do a blind taste test with your kegged beer to rule out an issue with your keg setup.

I also wonder if you are overdoing the water treatment. Have you had the problem since you started doing RO with treatment, or were you having the problem before?
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I've bottled and kegged the same batch, no discernible difference. I've always had this issue, that's partly why I started using R.O., I was/am in the process of elimination. Only problem is that I'm running out of things to eliminate.
 
using 5.2 is really used to bring Ph levels down and keep it around that number. If you're using RO, you may need to build up to raise the Ph.

Also, don't forget, your grain bill will affect Ph as well once water is added to the grains. My water Ph is around 7 but once I add it to my grain and mash in, I wait 10 min and run some wort out and test the Ph again and it usually hits between 5.5 - 5.2 Ph and I leave it at that for the rest of the mash. If the Ph was higher or lower, I would build up/knock down the Ph directly in the mash so that it's around 5.2 for the duration of the mash.

Next time, after you mash in, wait about 10-15 min and then draw off a small sample and use a Ph meter to test your worts Ph from the mash and adjust accordingly from there.

Having the Ph way off during the mash can extract undesirable flavors from the grains that will show up strong after fermentaion. One of the biggest off flavors is tannins from the grain....that "tea steeped too long" kind of flavor...a dry sensation on your tongue.
 
mprowland said:
The beers I like the most (stouts and porters) typically turn out the worst.
Click to expand...

mongoose33 said:
I'm still pretty new at this so take with a grain of salt, but that sounds to me like either a PH or a water issue.
Click to expand...

mprowland said:
Maybe PH, but I wouldn't think water would be the issue. I've purchased all of my water(spring) up until 5 batches or so ago. I've tasted the water on every batch and it tastes great.
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Here's why I'm suspicious of it: since the problem (taste) is more pronounced in stouts and porters, and we know that water plays a big role in how such beers turn out, and that water composition should differ by type of beer produced, it suggests to me that water is related to this problem.

You say you're using BrunWater to determine additions, but the one thing you haven't shown us is how you're amending your water, and how you're doing it differently for a stout or porter than a light ale.

So--you're using RO and adding salts and such to it. How, exactly, are you doing that, and what are you adding? Do you ever test PH? How is your sparge water different (or the same) as your strike water?
 
mongoose33 said:
Here's why I'm suspicious of it: since the problem (taste) is more pronounced in stouts and porters, and we know that water plays a big role in how such beers turn out, and that water composition should differ by type of beer produced, it suggests to me that water is related to this problem.

You say you're using BrunWater to determine additions, but the one thing you haven't shown us is how you're amending your water, and how you're doing it differently for a stout or porter than a light ale.

So--you're using RO and adding salts and such to it. How, exactly, are you doing that, and what are you adding? Do you ever test PH? How is your sparge water different (or the same) as your strike water?
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+1. You can't just use a program to tell you what to add to your water without actually testing your water. Just throwing stuff in without testing it first, you could be making it worse.

If you're getting your RO water from a controlled source, ask them what the water tests are on it. If you are running water through your own RO filter, send it out to a water analysis lab to have them break it all down for you.

If you don't have one, invest in a Ph meter or even pick up some Ph strips (NOT the ones you find at Pool stores).
 
One more thing to add: Adjust your water For Ca, etc in your HLT. Adjust your Ph directly in your Mash after 10 min of mashing in.
 
Adding yet another suggestion to the several you've gotten so far, but try entering your beer into a comp. A good judge will give you feed back and solutions to any off flavors present in your beer. It can be hit or miss. I've gotten worthless feed back and great feed back. Worth the 5-8 dollars for an entry fee in my opinion.
 
My suggestions:

Your beer should be done fermenting after 2-3 weeks. At the 2 week mark, start taking gravity readings every 2 days and when the gravity stops budging, cold condition for 2 days then keg! 4-5 weeks is a long time for the wort to have contact with that trub. For me, I've never had to keep my wort in the fermenter for more than 16 days. I always reach FG by then.

Purchase an actual recipe from a different supplier, my suggestion is Austin Homebrew Supply house kits in All-grain, they are always FRESH and read reviews to find the best ones:

http://www.austinhomebrew.com/Beer/AHS-House-Kits/

Have you tried different yeasts? You may just not like the flavors particular yeasts create, the cleanest I've tasted is Safale US-05, and White Labs California Ale WLP-001

Also, if you haven't already and dont mind spending another $200, buy this and never look back!:

bucket_square_copy_1024x1024.jpg
 
Could there be something wrong with your CO2? There have been incidental reports where the CO2 in the cylinder was tainted.

Is it your cylinder, getting it filled or do you swap it? Has it been replaced during those 30-some batches? Noticed any changes?

Have you bottled any beer, without using the keg and CO2? <== Apparently you've done that. You said the bottles showed the off flavor after 4 months, meaning they didn't have the problem in the beginning and were good beer? That would point to something.

How does the beer taste uncarbonated, straight from the fermentor (e.g., hydro samples)? Does it taste similar to the final product, with the same flaws?

"Alcoholic" is normal for higher gravity beer but can have something to do with higher than optimal fermentation temps, especially during the first few days. Ever put those buckets in a tote or cooler filled with water to create a water jacket/heat sink keeping the temps of the buckets more even and closer to your intended fermentation temps?
 
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mprowland said:
For a stout I calculate for a PH for 5.5 and a 5.3 for an IPA. My last failure is here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=359746
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That thread shows someone else's recipe, not yours. I didn't read through the 35 pages to find your posts on it.

5.5 is a perfect pH for a stout IMHO. But how are you getting there - what minerals?

P.S. I looked at some of your older posts. Did you stop using EZ-Water (inaccurate) and Nottingham yeast?
 
You could also try taking a bottle or two up to a local craft brewery (the smaller the better) on tour days and have one of the brew masters or other employees taste it. I did this for an IPA I recently brewed and got a ton of feedback. You'll find that they aren't afraid to point out problems/off tastes with your beer, mainly because they would want the same if they were in your shoes.

Ask them if they can taste anything wrong with your beer and if they might know what the problem is. They'll also know what you should do to possibly fix it as well.
 
Do you use much American crystal malt in those darker beers that don't turn out well? I'm not a big fan of the taste of American stuff. It took me many years and many batches to figure this out. Now I avoid the stuff when possible.

Otherwise, could you be tasting astringency from the tannins in the darker malts and even some in the lighter malts? You said you use bru'n water so I'm assuming that you are acidifying your sparge water below 6.0, right?
 
-Thanks for all the feedback!! I have been using my own R.O. system. I've only used a TDS meter to test and it's right around 002. The salt additions I add obviously depend on the beer I'm making. I couldn't tell you off hand as I'm at work but typically I pick a pre-loaded profile for a particular beer type. I usually add gypsum and calcium chloride. Sometimes I'll add lactic acid for an IPA and pickled lime for a stout. Regardless of the water though, I've always read, if the water tastes good, it will make good beer. Maybe not great, but good. My beer is far from that with spring or R.O. water. My buddies use tap water and have great results. I have bad results regardless of what water I use.
-I've used 7 or 8 different yeasts now, the only one I've had any success with is the yeast I harvested from Oberon. I made a raspberry wheat with it and it was good, probably my best yet. Go figure.. My batch that is fermenting now is a 2-hearted clone-ish with safe-ale 05. I thought I'd be better off using a yeast that's very forgiving.
-I'd love to get a stainless fermenter, but I don't want to spend much more money if I can't find the problem, it may be all for nothing. I also don't want to be the guy who spends $1500 on golf clubs and can't break 100.
-I've used two different tanks(5lb and 20lb) from 2 different suppliers to rule that out. I've even gone one step further and have my porters and stouts on beer gas to try and rule out carbonic bite. The hydro samples haven't been good either which rules all of the gas issues out.
 
ImNoExpert said:
Do you use much American crystal malt in those darker beers that don't turn out well? I'm not a big fan of the taste of American stuff. It took me many years and many batches to figure this out. Now I avoid the stuff when possible.

Otherwise, could you be tasting astringency from the tannins in the darker malts and even some in the lighter malts? You said you use bru'n water so I'm assuming that you are acidifying your sparge water below 6.0, right?
Click to expand...

I'll have to check previous recipes for the American crystal Malt.
Honestly, I've done nothing to the sparge water except to add gypsum and calcium chloride. I was under the assumption that PH didn't matter so much in sparge water?
 
How are you cleaning the mesh strainer?

I would be concerned about any cold side equipment. I once over looked a ball valve on my kettle which ruined 4 batches before I finally took it apart. A nice thin coating of brown ear wax looking goop, passing some nice bacteria into my wort. The batches were not "terrible" just not bright and had harsh finish, not sour, and not super attenuated. I went crazy trying to figure it out.

Is the chilled wort pre fermentation tasting good?

When using the strainer is the wort exposed for a while with the lid off? Is your brewing environment overly dusty or drafty?
 
+1^ Excellent point on possible cold side infection, and the kettle's ball valve.

When you can get to your recipes, can you post how much of the brewing salts and acid you add to your RO water? Which mash calculator are you using? Do you split the additions between mash and sparge water?
 
mprowland said:
Maybe, but I'm not sure where? That's partially the reason why I don't use a secondary.
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Are you using a racking cane when transferring to the keg or bottling bucket? Are all the seals and connections tight so air isn't being introduced?

If you have a bottle or 2 available I work in Lansing and would be happy to try them.
 
This is an interesting dilemma. 30+ batches and not one keeper in the bunch? We tend to be our own worst critics when it comes to our beers. If they were all bad in the "same" way then I think you can troubleshoot things with suggestions in the other posts. If they were all or some bad in different ways then the fix becomes more problematic. I haven't read the thread very closely but how many styles have you tried across the 30 batches?

I have a Saison in the keg now. It's not my fave but my brewing partner likes it. If someone gave it to me without telling me what it was, I would think it was a "bad" batch of something. In the context of the style though it's pretty darn good. Maybe your palate and brain are having trouble syncing up.

Todd
 
This one is really a puzzler.. With all the changes I could see having off flavors most of the time, but with all those changes, the off flavors should be DIFFERENT.

One thing I noticed is the amount of Starsan at 1/4 teaspoon in a quart. The proper dilution is one ounce in 5 gallons...... I would say the concentration is too acidic without doing the calculations.

I don't think this is the source of the problem though.

We are still waiting for a more accurate description of what the off flavor tastes like....
 
I agree with the ball valve idea. I had this same problem with my ball valve. If you don't have a ball valve on your kettle ignore this. I took it apart and cleaned it and the next batch was good. Then I got tired of taking my valve apart after every batch. I bought one of the new blichmann linear flow valves like here:
http://shop.greatfermentations.com/...ar-flow-valve/blichmann-boilermaker-brew-pots
It's pricey, but it comes apart in seconds and there is nothing to cleaning it.
My beers that had issues from the ball valve infection tasted oxidized, dry, and a bit harsh. Heavily hopped IPAs were the worst, giving sherry-like and cardboard flavors as soon as they were ready. I was able to isolate the infection to lacto with a microscope, but there may have been other nasties in there. The odd thing was that I never saw any pellicles or a lower than estimated final gravity. Good luck.
 
My vote is on temp swings causing off flavors here. I used to get the same issue before temp control...same types of off flavors. Some batches turned out decent others I had to wait 6-9 months before I thought they were worth drinking. Sometimes I would get the hot phenolic sulfury taste and other times it was slightly fruity. Never a clean commercial quality beer until temp control. Made a world of difference in my brewery.
 
bwarbiany said:
I'd be a bit worried that it's oxidation... Anywhere in your process that might sneak in?
Click to expand...

Note that I haven't gotten all the way through the thread yet, but this seems likely to me if you're using a plastic bucket and leaving the beer in it for over a month. I made my first dumper in over 200 batches that way recently. I had hoped the extra oxygen might give me a little acetic from the brett, but nope, tasted thin, a little molasses, and like I'd let a piece of cardboard hang out in it for a week.
 
xcghjh said:
Without knowing your process, its hard to say what is going wrong. For me the biggest difference came when I was able to control fermentation temperature. How are you doing that out of.curiosity?
Click to expand...

It's weird to me how many people cite fermentation temp. I had no temp control for 18 months and everything I made turned out exceptional. Only time I had off flavors was S-04, and even those were minimal. Granted I kept the house under 74° but I'm not convinced temp control makes the different between legendary and a dumper, just good and great.
 
I would trying picking a recipe, maybe a clone of a favorite commercial beer, and brew it a couple times, until it's good. I think it's a good suggestion to find someone knowledgeable to taste your beer--either homebrew club, HB shop employee or owner, local brewpub brewer.

"Alcoholic" and "dry" would seem to indicate wild yeast infection, assuming you're not mashing too low or adding sugar. Is it "phenolic" as well? (plastic-y or band-aid)? If this is the case, it's probably in the kegging setup--are you able to pump cleaning solution through the dip tube?

Sulfury--usually a yeast characteristic, unless it's DMS. Are you boiling pretty good, with the lid off?

Stale would indicate oxidation--are you purging the headspace a couple times after adding beer, before carbonating?
 
Almost everything pointed out has already been addressed by the OP (some people aren't reading the whole thread). And nothing here is so TERRIBLE that it would lead to 30+ batches of bad beer. It's just got to be something more basic than the usual suspects.

The beer tastes bad in the hydrometer, folks. It's not the kegs or bottles. It's somewhere during fermentation that it's getting tainted.

Infection, oxidation, or yeast autolysis are my suspicions - one of the above. I would stop fermenting in that bucket ASAP. It may have developed something that is getting into every beer, regardless of your sanitation. Put your next batch in a carboy and keg it after a 2 week primary, no longer.
 
This is definitely a stretch but something that I recently came across and adjusted favorably. You mention you have well water that is very hard - are you using this water to mix your star san? I've read extremely hard water can render starsan ineffective. I also have very hard well water and recently switched to distilled water when mixing star san. My next batch (also added a new plastic bucket fermenter) was my best, may be just a coincidence and unrelated but worth a shot.

best of luck
 
rmyurick said:
I would trying picking a recipe, maybe a clone of a favorite commercial beer, and brew it a couple times, until it's good. I think it's a good suggestion to find someone knowledgeable to taste your beer--either homebrew club, HB shop employee or owner, local brewpub brewer.

"Alcoholic" and "dry" would seem to indicate wild yeast infection, assuming you're not mashing too low or adding sugar. Is it "phenolic" as well? (plastic-y or band-aid)? If this is the case, it's probably in the kegging setup--are you able to pump cleaning solution through the dip tube?

Sulfury--usually a yeast characteristic, unless it's DMS. Are you boiling pretty good, with the lid off?

Stale would indicate oxidation--are you purging the headspace a couple times after adding beer, before carbonating?
Click to expand...

+1

Your process from a few pages back looks pretty solid.

I agree with others that it seems most likely that there is a sanitation issue somewhere in the system. There is a great article here at brulosophy about a contamination exactly where others have mentioned: the kettle ball valve. And the story actually sounds amazingly like what you're describing....

http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/

If you've got ball valves in your system, I'd remove them and give them a good cleaning and hot soak for a few hours or more in HOT pbw. Let us know what you find!
 
It sounds like you've taken a TDS meter to the RO water and got a reading of 2... perfect. We are assuming the carbon filters are properly removing the chlorine before they hit the RO membrane (they really should, it's not good for the membrane), but let's assume maybe it's not. I'd add a 1/4 of a campden tab to your water next time for insurance. There can't possibly be much left but that would eliminate it immediately. I'm pretty sensitive to chlorophenols and they will ruin a batch in a hurry. Just disgusting! (I'll call this one unlikely but VERY cheap/easy insurance. Cross that one off the list with 10 seconds of work)

Can you give an example of a recipe and exactly what you are adding to the water minerals and acid wise? Who knows, maybe you are adding a tsp of something instead of a mL? If your darker beers are worse I suppose it could be a low pH problem, but I would have thought you'd describe that as maybe tart or acrid, carbonic, etc. It sounds like you've been using BrunWater long enough that you have it down, but it wouldn't be the first time it happened. Take a TDS reading after adding minerals too. That will catch a huge error somewhere. You can't caclulate what it should be, but when I see 120, I'm satisfied it's not 500. I can rest assured I probably measured correctly.

What is the strength of your lactic acid? 88%? Where did you get it and how do you measure? A little goes a LONG way.

Can you describe your equipment for everything that touches wort/beer after the flame goes out? Where are the ball valves located? How do you clean those? What components have threads and whre are those located? Where are plastic hoses used? How are those cleaned and sanitized? The method can be just as important as the chemical used

Do the same for your yeast handling procedures. Any additives for starters or rehydration? What touches these?

Close your eyes and imagine your wort flowing through your process and everything it touches. Try to imagine all the places you can't see and what would happen if a little piece of gunk got trapped in there.


For me it would be a no-brainer to just throw out all the plastic hoses and eliminate that entire variable, too cheap not to. Plastic won't last 30 batches in my brewery regardless. Even if you aren't yet convinced it's an infection issue it's an easy one to cross off the list.

Well that got a little long didn't it. :mug:
 
Genacide said:
Are you using a racking cane when transferring to the keg or bottling bucket? Are all the seals and connections tight so air isn't being introduced?

If you have a bottle or 2 available I work in Lansing and would be happy to try them.
Click to expand...

I do use a racking cane, I've never really paid attention to the seals and connections? If was oxidation was the cause, would the hydro sample be good?

I don't have anything carbed up at the moment. I just dumped 5 gallons of an Oberon clone that was dreadful to make room for a chocolate oatmeal stout. I kegged this yesterday, I noticed the same taste was present. We'll see in a few days. I work at the Lansing airport so I'm not sure where you work in relation.
 
kh54s10 said:
One thing I noticed is the amount of Starsan at 1/4 teaspoon in a quart. The proper dilution is one ounce in 5 gallons...... I would say the concentration is too acidic without doing the calculations.
Click to expand...

Actually, he is underdosing the Star San by -17%.

0.25 tsp = 0.0417 fl oz
1 qt = 0.25 gal

So he is dosing at 0.17 fl oz/gal which is inconsisten with the label instructions of 0.2 fl oz/gal.
 

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