Still making bad beer after 30+ batches.

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He means to leave it on the yeast in primary no longer than 3 weeks. Since you're kegging and there's no risk of bottle bombs, I'd say 2 weeks max. Use the keg as both secondary and serving vessel.
 
For what it's worth...I just had my wife taste my beer and I then referred her to the "color wheel". She picked out "stale". Does this seem to fall in line with those in the oxidation camp?
 
mprowland said:
For what it's worth...I just had my wife taste my beer and I then referred her to the "color wheel". She picked out "stale". Does this seem to fall in line with those in the oxidation camp?
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Could definitely be a good descriptor. Here's an idea: have you ever left a perfectly good beer out for a while, maybe a couple hours, and when you come back to it it tastes, well, stale? Is that a similar flavor to what you're experiencing in your beer?

If you've never had the pleasure, take a commercial beer similar in style to one of your beers that you think might be oxidized. Pour it into a glass and let it sit on the counter for an extended period, a couple hours (if you're really daring pour it before you leave for work for the day) then try it and see if you experience similar off-flavors to your beer. Have one of your beers available to try side by side.
 
mprowland said:
For what it's worth...I just had my wife taste my beer and I then referred her to the "color wheel". She picked out "stale". Does this seem to fall in line with those in the oxidation camp?
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I still think it is in the primary too long. Some oxidation might be to blame too. Under some conditions, the yeast will also consume some of the compounds in the trub. The "fermentation" of these compounds can produce several off-flavors. In addition, the dormant yeast on the bottom of the fermentor begin excreting more amino and fatty acids. Leaving the post-primary beer on the trub and yeast cake for too long (more than about three weeks) will tend to result in off flavors becoming evident. Further, after very long times the yeast begin to die and break down - autolysis, which produces yeasty or rubbery/fatty/meaty flavors and aromas. For these reasons, it can be important to get the beer off of the trub and dormant yeast during the conditioning phase. Healthy and enough healthy yeast are another peice of the puzzle.
 
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theonetrueruss said:
Have you tried brewing with someone else who makes beer you like and doing one of their recipes with their guidance? There must be something off if after 30 batches you can't get a good one.
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Agreed! Always good to get some input on your process! Especially after that long. I admire your patience!
 
McKnuckle said:
I'm sure someone will pick on some aspect of the water profile, but I think it's very reasonable and avoids any extremes. Plus 5.5 pH is ideal for a dark beer.

Seems like the water is not where you should be looking first.
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But the spreadsheet says the PH value isn't valid until the grain bill has been properly entered.

If it has been entered, then I would agree it's pretty good. :)

As a side note, if you're like me you can't wait to find out exactly what has been causing this. In its own way this thread is like a car crash--you just cannot avert your eyes.

I'm anxious for OP to figure this out so we can all learn something.
 
Wow, you got a lot of help here! I read through the first 8 pages then fizzled out and jumped to the end so my thoughts might be fully covered already.

1. While it doesn't sound like a sanitation issue (off tastes didn't seem like what I'd expect for infections), before I brew again, I'd clean and sanitize everything. Use an iodine based sanitizer in addition to Starsan this time. Why - it can't hurt! and it may kill something that Starsan doesn't do well against.

2. Fermentation - as others mention, 2 weeks should be good for most beers. Now, we mostly do 2 weeks and then into the fridge for a few weeks before kegging. Everyone has preferences but I like glass as it's much cheaper than SS but equally hard to scratch.

3. Taste, taste, taste. Does the wort taste good? Have somebody that brews good beer over on the brew day and have them taste too. Taste the hydrometer samples you take from the fermentor. Taste before you carb it. Taste once carbed, give it a few weeks and taste again if it wasn't good right away. I know my very first beer 20+ years ago tasted like crap right away but improved after about 3-4 weeks after bottling.

Tasting should give you some idea about where in the process the problem is. Brew with someone else and taste along the process to see how wort, fermentor samples, and final gravity samples taste different and should taste. CO2 will add a little more bitterness and tongue-feel later as well.

Tasting should help you focus in on where changes are taking place.

4. As many others mention, it might be water. As an experiment (I'm a scientist), I'd buy distilled water and one of the pre-packaged water additions like below just to rule out water as a cause.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewing/brewing-ingredients/salts-finings/accumash

Good luck!

5. Edit to add, I might have missed it but how "vibrant" are the yeast before you add it? Are you hitting final gravities that you're expecting to hit? If the FG is off, is it close? Same with the OG, are you getting a good (but not too good) efficiency?
 
mongoose33 said:
But the spreadsheet says the PH value isn't valid until the grain bill has been properly entered.

If it has been entered, then I would agree it's pretty good. :)

As a side note, if you're like me you can't wait to find out exactly what has been causing this. In its own way this thread is like a car crash--you just cannot avert your eyes.

I'm anxious for OP to figure this out so we can all learn something.
Click to expand...

The grain bill was entered, it was on a different page in excel.

I'll definitely update everyone once I figure this out. I have a two-hearted clone I made this past Friday. In another week or so I'm going to transfer to a keg with a new auto siphon cane. I'm going to purge the empty keg with Co2 and see what happens. If this goes well, I may make another porter or stout and see if this corrects it. I have yet to make a decent brown, porter or stout! There is way out of this, this isn't some voo-doo or spell cast upon me! I have no intentions to quit, I have 8 rhizomes going in the ground this weekend.
 
mprowland said:
Alcoholic, stale, dry, and sulfury(sometimes) seem close.
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mprowland said:
Once the initial volume has drained into my keggle, I then batch sparge by adding in another 5 gallons of 168 degree water,
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Are you acidifying this water?

Apparently not.

Oxidation is one possibility, especially if you're leaving your beer for 4-5 weeks in a bucket (they're a lot more oxygen-permeable than glass), but you've also picked out a set of descriptors that mostly sound about the way hot, rinsed grain husks smell, and the way teabags tend to taste if you let them steep too long. As such, I suspect tannin extraction is contributing.

Try using that lactic acid to get your sparge water pH below 5.7 and see if that helps.
 
JGF said:
4. As many others mention, it might be water. As an experiment (I'm a scientist), I'd buy distilled water and one of the pre-packaged water additions like below just to rule out water as a cause.


5. Edit to add, I might have missed it but how "vibrant" are the yeast before you add it? Are you hitting final gravities that you're expecting to hit? If the FG is off, is it close? Same with the OG, are you getting a good (but not too good) efficiency?
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4. I actually did try distilled water with a Burton salt pack for an oatmeal stout....nada.

5. I believe my yeast have been good. I rehydrate my dry yeast and use two packs for everything 1.060 and higher. My liquid starters have been at a 10:1 ratio(1000ml of water to 100g of DME)
Once I started using Bru'n water for lactic acid and pickling lime additions, my O.G. and F.G. have been spot on.
 
Great thread with a lot of info.

I agree with many of the posters. Get in with a brew club or a local brewery. There were two or three guys who offered to give feedback if you send them your beer. I would do that and see what happens.

Stale could be the grains. I would order some online. If I order, I get them from homebrewsupply.com. Flat rate shipping of $7.99 so it doesn't break the bank. Someone also suggested getting a pre packaged kit.

Also, as others have stated no longer than three weeks in primary.
I would also use a glass carboy to ferment. I have a 3 gallon glass carboy and two 1 gallon carboys. I also use buckets that I get from the bakery dept and clean. I don't particularly like them as the lids don't seal good but they are free. Maybe try one of those and tape the lid shut with duck tape.

As for water, I use water from one of those stand alone machines. It's filtered but probably not RO. I've been using that as it cost $1 for 5 gallons vs $5 for distilled. I also only add gypsum and calcium chloride, no pickling lime etc. I never have tested my ph, mainly because I don't want the additional cost with the tester plus solution, etc.

I'm only 23 brews in and never had to dumb a batch. I did brew a Rye PA that I didn't like but it wasn't due to off flavors. I'm basically alone as I have no friends who homebrew and my wife sticks to her Ultra so it's difficult to pinpoint an off flavor or issue.

Good luck and keep at it.
Cheers
 
mprowland said:
4. I actually did try distilled water with a Burton salt pack for an oatmeal stout....nada.

5. I believe my yeast have been good. I rehydrate my dry yeast and use two packs for everything 1.060 and higher. My liquid starters have been at a 10:1 ratio(1000ml of water to 100g of DME)
Once I started using Bru'n water for lactic acid and pickling lime additions, my O.G. and F.G. have been spot on.
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Cool, you're really doing your due diligence in trying to figure this out. You've obviously got a lot of patience as many would have given up well before you have. Kudos!

Like others, I'm thinking that its a fermentation or oxidation problem then. My next experiment would be to get down to FG (hopefully in 2 weeks or so) and then go through your kegging/bottling process. That should tell you if being in the fermentor too long is the issue. (there is less issue of this with glass than most plastics)
 
I have made plenty of bad beer and it was always attributable to either mash temp, water chemistry, or insufficient yeast.
 
Since oxidation might be the culprit, I looked at my cane a little more closely. Apparently it is an auto siphon cane. Here is a picture of the outer tube, it's riddled with cracks. Even with the cracks I'm not sure air would get into beer but who knows? I need a new one regardless.

Cane.jpg
 
mprowland said:
Since oxidation might be the culprit, I looked at my cane a little more closely. Apparently it is an auto siphon cane. Here is a picture of the outer tube, it's riddled with cracks. Even with the cracks I'm not sure air would get into beer but who knows? I need a new one regardless.
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That could very well be one, if not THE, culprit..Not necessarily for oxidation, but the cracks harboring germs and other nasties that don't get washed out when you sanitize..Now, that is the outer tube, but your wort gets drawn up into it when you 'prime' the auto siphon, and while the exposure is brief, that could be introducing something to be causing the off flavors..
 
I have done some crazy splashy things with beer over the years and never had an oxidation problem. Many love to disagree but personally I think you would need to really get rowdy with fermented beer to have an oxidation issue. Seems to be a more likely issue if the beer is going to age for a long period of time.
 
Since you keg, I assume that you also serve from the keg. When you bottle, do you bottle from a bottling bucket or do you bottle from a keg? From what I've read, I'd suspect your beer lines and taps.

I have a friend who kegs almost exclusively unless he has to bottle a few for a competition. He went through a period where all of his beers had a noticeable off flavor. Eventually, he was able to trace it back to his beer lines and taps. After seriously cleaning his taps and replacing his beer lines, the problem when away.
 
If you are getting an off taste, but you are anal about cleaning and temps ect, I would look at your water source. I have very iron and sulfur rich water( well water In Maine is basically dissolved granite) so I stick with 2.5 gallon or larger "water dispenser jugs" like u might see in an office. I add minerals and nutrients as needed, but generally just let it be and I have more than. Satisfactory results. I would try using something like that or even buying gallon jugs of bottled water. Do one more batch with this water if u haven't already. Also when I was starting out I had a few other things that led to bad tastes
-using cleaner rather than regular starsan without rinsing
- over bittering everything (thought aroma hops didn't add to taste)
- under-temp primary fermentation

Honorable mention would be fermenting in something plastic that is not food grade (anything but hdpe, polycarbonate(rare), or very few certain polypropylenes. I would stick to glass unless u are using a speedle(made for beer fermenting). I'm not a bucket fermenting fan

These are a few things I have done personally and I'm sure there's other things. Like mentioned before, brew clubs can get u straightened out 99.9% of the time
 
Eliminate running your wort through a strainer for aeration. I have read other threads where this was a source of infection. I just let the cooled wort splash into my sanitized bucket from the valve on my brew pot.

I have brewed many enjoyable beers without rehydrating yeast, without ferm temp control, without an oxygen tank, without yeast starters, using all RO water without adding minerals, without a ph meter. Perfect BJCP winners? No but tasty enjoyable beers. I don't think these are the source of your undrinkable beer. I've even splashed and oxidized a batch and it still tasted good when it was fresh. To me it sounds like you have a source of infection. Start by getting rid of that strainer.
 
reading thru this thread was just like driving the Road to Hana...but having read thru all the posts, my money is on oxidation; either hot side and/or cold side. Water, I feel, can be safely ruled out since all styles taste equally bad. Watch hot side aeration during sparge (minimize splashing). Best bet is to ditch the plastic buckets and switch to glass fermentors. It also would not hurt to get a worm gear on the hose where it meets the auto-siphon to minimize any potential O2 pickup during transfer to keg. As others have stated, make sure those kegs are purged of O2 prior to transferring the beer. One final note, you could try an extract recipe with distilled water to 100% rule out any water issues. I sure would. Good luck!
 
BigDaddyBrew might be on to something with the strainer as a potential source of infection. Tey taking it out of the equation. If it must be used, try soaking it in hot PBW solution for 30 min and then rinsed/starsan'd prior to use. Personally, I use fine mesh hop bags to keep a large portion of the trub out of my beer, eliminating the need for a strainer. Cheers!
 
Probably not the issue but I'm going to throw it out there anyway.

I've read that you clean with PBW but haven't seen where you rinsed it, or how well you rinsed it. How are you rinsing it?

What the heck. It's worth asking the question. It seems to be that about all others have been asked and I could see where this could give the same off flavor in everything.
 
mprowland said:
Since oxidation might be the culprit, I looked at my cane a little more closely. Apparently it is an auto siphon cane. Here is a picture of the outer tube, it's riddled with cracks. Even with the cracks I'm not sure air would get into beer but who knows? I need a new one regardless.
Click to expand...

Hey! Give me back my lucky racking cane! :)
I have the exact same thing ... Mine may even be worse...never been a problem. I actually bought a new one but dont use it

Cheers!
 
LostArtBrewer said:
reading thru this thread was just like driving the Road to Hana...but having read thru all the posts, my money is on oxidation; either hot side and/or cold side. Water, I feel, can be safely ruled out since all styles taste equally bad. Watch hot side aeration during sparge (minimize splashing).
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I have a question about hot side aeration, doesn't the boil take care of this? Also, why do we avoid it when we purposely aerate right after the boil? I've never understood this.
 
Are you aerating right after the boil, or right after you have cooled to pitching temps? I would do a search for HSA on here, lots of posts. In a nutshell introducing O2 at elevated temps may create HSA which may lead to off flavors....I say may as HSA is contested by many at the homebrew level...
 
Refer to Palmer's How to Brew for a more detailed explanation on hot side aeration. Essentially, the wort is susceptible to oxidation at sparge temps (but not at pitching temps).
 
Hot side aeration is not really an issue at the home brew level scale. Brulosopher did an exbeeriment where he splashed and stirred the crap out of his wort and got no off flavors. I also just let my sparge water fall 3 feet from the counter into the boil kettle on the ground and stir the crap out of it when cooling and I've never had any kind of off flavors.


Edit: Heres the link - http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/18/is-hot-side-aeration-fact-or-fiction-exbeeriment-results/
 
LostArtBrewer said:
reading thru this thread was just like driving the Road to Hana...but having read thru all the posts, my money is on oxidation; either hot side and/or cold side. Water, I feel, can be safely ruled out since all styles taste equally bad.
Click to expand...

Well, not really. He said the darker beers were worse, which is what put me on to the idea that it might be water.

Watch hot side aeration during sparge (minimize splashing). Best bet is to ditch the plastic buckets and switch to glass fermentors. It also would not hurt to get a worm gear on the hose where it meets the auto-siphon to minimize any potential O2 pickup during transfer to keg. As others have stated, make sure those kegs are purged of O2 prior to transferring the beer. One final note, you could try an extract recipe with distilled water to 100% rule out any water issues. I sure would. Good luck!
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I'm still doubtful it's oxidation--when it's bad right from the get-go, oxidation hasn't had much time to do its thing.
 
mprowland said:
Actually I do, I use it very liberally and saturate EVERYTHING with it. I use roughly 1/4 teaspoon per quart of water. I usually use the entire bottle on a brew day. I'll definitely try filling up a bucket next time.
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I haven't read all the replies in this thread so I apologize if someone already mentioned this.

I think that your starsan mixture might be a little too strong. I ruined a 5 gallon batch of Kolsch by using starsan that was mixed too strong. What I do now is to mix up the starsan exactly as the bottle says, 1 oz to 5 gallons, usually 1/2 oz to 2 1/2 gallons and fill up my spray bottle out of the mix in the bucket. Haven't had any ruined batches since.
 
On one hand this thread feels like a treasure chest of useful information and tips, on the other hand I'm not sure we've actually confirmed the helpfulness of the tips :)

In the interest of keeping solicited but not verified solutions flowing I offer the following:

1. +1 to the person who posted this: http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/

2. +0.25 on oxidation, it's a good sounding candidate, but in reading your process it shouldn't be the issue.

3. +1 on "Brew a Kit" For all the beer you've made, it wouldn't hurt to buy an AG kit from Northern Brewer and see if your area just gets crappy or stale malt and hops.

4. +100 to the people who recommended having trained strangers drink your beer.

I had a batch of an IPA recipe that I have brewed 5-6 times (extract and all grain both) that just didn't taste "right" to me. I have a very hard time tasting my own beers because the flaws tend to get lost in my perception of what the beer "should have tasted like".

I filled a full growler and took it to a beer club meeting with a label on the handle "This IPA Needs Help!" I was amazed how many complete strangers picked up the growler, looked at the label, and said "ooh, Fun!"

The answer in my case was diacetyl, I had rushed this batch directly from primary (66F) to cold crash without giving it my usual few days at 70F first. That said, it was subtle enough that many of the tasters didn't pick it up. I got quite a few "yeah, something is off here but I'm not sure what", which at least made me feel better about myself.
 
jmitchell3 said:
Its usually minor and good fermentation takes care of it.
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The yeast need the O2 to do their job during initial fermentation. The yeast will devour the O2 and fill the fermenter with alcohol and CO2. Unless the bucket just doesn't have enough seal on it and the 02 is seeping in.

Although it doesn't warrant when the yeast is done, what sort of action are you seeing in your airlock. Are you having to use a blow off tube and then switching to a smaller one? I would suspect o2 is seeping in somehow if you don't have a good seal once the yeast are done, and could be a culprit.

Could be picking up some microbes from somewhere for infection but does it have a ring around the bucket or on top of the beer?
 
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jmitchell3 said:
Its usually minor and good fermentation takes care of it.
Click to expand...

The yeast need the O2 to do their job during initial fermentation. The yeast with devour the O2 and fill the fermenter with alcohol and CO2. Unless the bucket just doesn't have enough seal on it and the 02 is seeping in.

Although it doesn't warrant when the yeast is done, what sort of action are you seeing in your airlock. Are you having to use a blow off tube and then switching to a smaller one? I would suspect o2 is seeping in somehow if you don't have a good seal once the yeast are done, and could be a culprit.

Could be picking up some microbes from somewhere for infection but does it have a ring around the bucket or on top of the beer?
 
VApatriot said:
I haven't read all the replies in this thread so I apologize if someone already mentioned this.

I think that your starsan mixture might be a little too strong. I ruined a 5 gallon batch of Kolsch by using starsan that was mixed too strong. What I do now is to mix up the starsan exactly as the bottle says, 1 oz to 5 gallons, usually 1/2 oz to 2 1/2 gallons and fill up my spray bottle out of the mix in the bucket. Haven't had any ruined batches since.
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Wow, very informative thread! I don't have much to say, and I'm not the most experienced brewer myself but I thought I should point out that the star san concentration you've been using is actually a bit low, not high.

The directions are for 1oz to 5gal. 1oz = 30ml.

You are using 1/4 tsp per quart, or 1 tsp per gal in other words.

1tsp = 5ml, so you are using 25ml for 5gal instead of the reccomended 30ml.

So you are coming up 5ml short on your concentration for 5 gal.... That's not that far off really. Could have something to do with it, probably not.
 

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