stever1000's recirculating e-BIAB

[zgja2]

I'm crushing with my barley crusher, factory set to 0.039". I posted pictures of it a few weeks ago and people commented it looked okay so I didn't bother adjusting it, compensating with a longer mash to reach the bigger grains. I will try double crushing to see if there's a difference

I turn the pump back to a trickle so that the water has enough time to run through the grain bed. The recirc arm is locline so I get mixing of the top as it enters which I hope prevents the grain from compacting. I did have troubles recirculating last time, the pump was starved and I had to pull the bag up and give the grain a stir

I use rice hulls in all my brews. Maybe half a pound +/- depending on how bit the beer is. It really helps in ensuring the pump is not starved.

 

[augiedoggy]

you shouldnt need the rice hulls... I use the same pumps but with a triple layer of filtering instead of the bag... I average 2.1gallons perminute flow while recirculating from the bottom through my rims down below and up through the locline sparge arm. I have a flowmeter inline to see how well my pump is working... I would venture to guess since you mentioned in another thread you had the pump get clogged that too much grain is getting through your bag somehow? Maybe try a length of braided stainless attached to your diptube as a last chance filter.

I have never used ricehulls ever. I have had efficiencies over 90% although my average is more like 80%

 

[zgja2]

you shouldnt need the rice hulls... I use the same pumps but with a triple layer of filtering instead of the bag... I average 2.1gallons perminute flow while recirculating from the bottom through my rims down below and up through the locline sparge arm. I have a flowmeter inline to see how well my pump is working... I would venture to guess since you mentioned in another thread you had the pump get clogged that too much grain is getting through your bag somehow? Maybe try a length of braided stainless attached to your diptube as a last chance filter.

I have never used ricehulls ever. I have had efficiencies over 90% although my average is more like 80%

"Triple layer of filtering instead of a bag" Please explain what you mean. Thanks!

Also never had a pump get clogged, no grain getting through. I was refering to the pump out pacing the wort flowing through the grain. This results in starving the pump. Could result in element being exposed to air. My real issue is the bayou classic steamer basket i am using in conjunction with the bag. The holes in the basket are just not large enough to allow maximum flow. Been meaning to enlarge the holes for a while but rice hulls have worked just fin in the mean time.

 

[stever1000]

I don't think I will have any problems with clogged pumps anymore with my hopsider (for hops) and placing a stainless steel ball at my pickup (for grain particles).

Hopefully brewing again soon to test out the spider and see if my re-circulation stops again

 

[augiedoggy]

"Triple layer of filtering instead of a bag" Please explain what you mean. Thanks!

Also never had a pump get clogged, no grain getting through. I was refering to the pump out pacing the wort flowing through the grain. This results in starving the pump. Could result in element being exposed to air. My real issue is the bayou classic steamer basket i am using in conjunction with the bag. The holes in the basket are just not large enough to allow maximum flow. Been meaning to enlarge the holes for a while but rice hulls have worked just fin in the mean time.

check out the pics in my build thread linked in my signature... I use a false bottom but below that I have a bazooka tube and inside the bazooka tube I have a stainless braided section which acts as the filter third stage filter that gets anything that gets past the first two layers of coarse filtration until the grainbed develops as its own filter.

 

[augiedoggy]

I don't think I will have any problems with clogged pumps anymore with my hopsider (for hops) and placing a stainless steel ball at my pickup (for grain particles).

Hopefully brewing again soon to test out the spider and see if my re-circulation stops again

just remember to not restrict flow with that ballvalve on the inlet side of the pump or you will have cavitation.

 

[stever1000]

just remember to not restrict flow with that ballvalve on the inlet side of the pump or you will have cavitation.

Yes I only use the PWM to control the flow

 

[stever1000]

Brewed last night and still did not hit very good efficiencies again...

11lbs pilsner
4 oz saaz (3.4%) hops 2oz 60mins, 1oz 15mins 1oz 1min
90min mash
60min boil

7.5gallons into kettle for mashing
mash in at 160F (overshot my target of 148)
down to 148F 15 mins in, stirring a lot
held at 148/149F f
Total mash time 90mins

OG of 1.049 into fermenter...I need to measure my volume into fermenter tonight, ran out of time last night but marked it on my carboy so I can easily check it

I squeezed the hell out of the grain at the end of the mash

I lost at least 0.25gallons in my kettle because my hop pellets made a mess and my whirlpool didn't work

If I want 5gallons into my keg, I'm estimating the following:
1gallon boil off/evaporation
0.25g kettle loss (including hop absorption / pellets)
0.25g fermenter loss
0.66 grain absorption (.06 x 11lbs)
So I should have added 7.15gallons instead of 7.5 gallons

Also read I shouldn't use the SG feature on my refractometer, and I need to use a correction factor to the Brix. hmmmm
http://www.brewersfriend.com/how-to-determine-your-refractometers-wort-correction-factor/

So I measured 5 gallons into the fermenter, and will probably lose 0.25gallon to trub when I transfer to my keg...so my boil off must be higher than 1gal/hour

So 7.5gallon water to 5gallon between boil off, absorption, and kettle losses. Yet I ended up with an OG of 1.049...

I didn't measure my pre-boil volume or OG so I don't have much data to check...

Lots of work to be done

 

[EDF713]

If you plug your numbers into biabcalculator.com, it looks like your boil off is 1.75 (assuming I entered it correctly), which is really high. I'm not an electric brewer (though I'm curious, hence following this thread), but I would hope you could cut back the power for a gentler boil. I use propane and keggle, and usually boil off a little over a gallon per hour.

Also, have you looked into water chemistry? I've improved my efficiency by doing three things - finer crush, more aggressive squeezing, and using water adjustment spreadsheets/salts/acid malt to reduce mash ph. If not, check out the brewing water chemistry primer - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460 .

I'm also curious where your FG will end up. If it's higher than expected one cause could be too high of a mash temp (besides yeast pitch rate and oxygen). Perhaps an experienced electric brewer can comment on potential issues with temp probe or pid accuracy...

 

[stever1000]

If you plug your numbers into biabcalculator.com, it looks like your boil off is 1.75 (assuming I entered it correctly), which is really high. I'm not an electric brewer (though I'm curious, hence following this thread), but I would hope you could cut back the power for a gentler boil. I use propane and keggle, and usually boil off a little over a gallon per hour.

Also, have you looked into water chemistry? I've improved my efficiency by doing three things - finer crush, more aggressive squeezing, and using water adjustment spreadsheets/salts/acid malt to reduce mash ph. If not, check out the brewing water chemistry primer - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460 .

I'm also curious where your FG will end up. If it's higher than expected one cause could be too high of a mash temp (besides yeast pitch rate and oxygen). Perhaps an experienced electric brewer can comment on potential issues with temp probe or pid accuracy...

Thanks for the info:

I have my PID set to 75% to keep the boil maintained, this seemed like a good balance but I will try 70% next time.

Where I live, the majority if brewers do nothing to the water and its fine (the water is really good here). I may try some additions to see if it makes a difference (the water is on the soft side though).

I hope it is to do with my mash temp hitting 160F then dropping, but I have had other problems with mash temp in other batches and it fermented really low still (though using saison yeast. 1.000 and 1.002 from 1.040 and 1.060 (table sugar addition) respectively. )

 

[EDF713]

Thanks for the info:

I have my PID set to 75% to keep the boil maintained, this seemed like a good balance but I will try 70% next time.

Where I live, the majority if brewers do nothing to the water and its fine (the water is really good here). I may try some additions to see if it makes a difference (the water is on the soft side though).

I hope it is to do with my mash temp hitting 160F then dropping, but I have had other problems with mash temp in other batches and it fermented really low still (though using saison yeast. 1.000 and 1.002 from 1.040 and 1.060 (table sugar addition) respectively. )

I bet you're on to something with the mash temp. From what I've read, it doesn't take long for high temps to denature the enzymes.

I envy your water. Our water is so crummy here that I just buy from one of those reverse osmosis water vending machines.

 

[stever1000]

I bet you're on to something with the mash temp. From what I've read, it doesn't take long for high temps to denature the enzymes.

I envy your water. Our water is so crummy here that I just buy from one of those reverse osmosis water vending machines.

I guess it will be hard to tell what happens because I used 3711 yeast so I won't be surprised if it goes from 1.049 down to <1.008

 

[stever1000]

If you plug your numbers into biabcalculator.com, it looks like your boil off is 1.75 (assuming I entered it correctly), which is really high. I'm not an electric brewer (though I'm curious, hence following this thread), but I would hope you could cut back the power for a gentler boil. I use propane and keggle, and usually boil off a little over a gallon per hour.

Also, have you looked into water chemistry? I've improved my efficiency by doing three things - finer crush, more aggressive squeezing, and using water adjustment spreadsheets/salts/acid malt to reduce mash ph. If not, check out the brewing water chemistry primer - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460 .

I'm also curious where your FG will end up. If it's higher than expected one cause could be too high of a mash temp (besides yeast pitch rate and oxygen). Perhaps an experienced electric brewer can comment on potential issues with temp probe or pid accuracy...

Based on that calculator, and assuming 0.25-0.5gallons of trub in my kettle (due to hop pellets,"flour", etc) and 5gallons into my fermenter, my boil off is 1.5-1.75 as you mention...

I will play around with my manual PID setting...

So with this high of boil off in 60mins (equivalent to a long boil?) my OG should have been higher, which points to an efficiency issue in my mash...

I'm hesitant to brew anything other than a simple single malt single hop recipe until I find the reason to my problem...

Max OG 1.077 (based on 35 points x 11 lbs / 5 gallons)
Actual OG 1.049 (11 lbs of grain, 5 gallon into fermenter)
efficiency 64% ouch

 

[EDF713]

So with this high of boil off in 60mins (equivalent to a long boil?) my OG should have been higher, which points to an efficiency issue in my mash...

Yeah, I reread your post on the mash and the 160 jumped out at me, that's a good starting point. The great thing about brewing is each test or experiment results in more beer!

If I didn't say it earlier, thanks for posting your setup. I'm toying with the idea of recirculating e-biab, and this shows a very attainable way to do it. It also reminds everyone that all systems take some care and patience to work out.

 

[stever1000]

Do I understand this correctly?

If I accidentally mashed at 160F for 10 mins until the temperature dropped, a certain percent of enzymes were denatured and unable to convert the starch to sugar during mash.

The rest of the conversion that occurred in the remaining 80mins converted a certain percent of the remaining starch to sugar, but because not all enzymes were available, not all the potential sugar was extracted from the grains, leading to my low OG?

So theoretically, if the rest of my process is okay (including crush, volumes, etc), and if I hit my target mash temp correctly, my efficiency should be higher in the future (i.e. 70-80%)?

 

[EDF713]

That was my thought, assuming your mash PH isn't too high (below 5.6). Here is why - from Palmer's How to Brew (http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/how-the-mash-works/the-starch-conversion-saccharification-rest):

"The temperature most often quoted for mashing is about 153°F. This is a compromise between the two temperatures that the two enzymes favor. Alpha works best at 154-162°F, while beta is denatured (the molecule falls apart) at that temperature, working best between 131-150°F."

 

[stever1000]

That was my thought, assuming your mash PH isn't too high (below 5.6). Here is why - from Palmer's How to Brew (http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/how-the-mash-works/the-starch-conversion-saccharification-rest):

"The temperature most often quoted for mashing is about 153°F. This is a compromise between the two temperatures that the two enzymes favor. Alpha works best at 154-162°F, while beta is denatured (the molecule falls apart) at that temperature, working best between 131-150°F."

Thanks! That's good info - I can't wait until the next version of the book comes out

 

[augiedoggy]

Do I understand this correctly?

If I accidentally mashed at 160F for 10 mins until the temperature dropped, a certain percent of enzymes were denatured and unable to convert the starch to sugar during mash.

The rest of the conversion that occurred in the remaining 80mins converted a certain percent of the remaining starch to sugar, but because not all enzymes were available, not all the potential sugar was extracted from the grains, leading to my low OG?

So theoretically, if the rest of my process is okay (including crush, volumes, etc), and if I hit my target mash temp correctly, my efficiency should be higher in the future (i.e. 70-80%)?

I have done the same a couple of times and the result was lower efficiency... I have learned its always better to strike slightly lower if anything and ramp up (I use my rims but you can use direct heat with your setup). a lot of conversion happens in 10 minutes... some people only mash for as little as 20 mins from what Ive read here..

 

[stever1000]

Thanks for the info, I have everything set up in the kitchen ready to brew after work... I hope I have ironed out some of the problems and I'm aiming for at least 70% efficiency this time...

 

[stever1000]

another test batch tonight...failed batch 5/5

Conditioned my grains with 100ml of water and kept the mill at 0.039"
The husks remained intact, pretty cool!

I used
11lbs of pale 2-row
4 oz cascade pellets

Mashed for 90mins at 148F while recirculating. This time i hit my mash temp spot on and flucuated between 147-149 for the 90mins. I stirred 3-4 times, and had my locline attached to the lid for recirculation below the surface of the water. Didn't notice a stuck mash this time, the conditioned grains helped. Pump was turned all the way down

7.5gallon of water into kettle
~half way between 6.75 and 7 gallons post mash with 9.2 brix (1.037)
(pretty near 0.66gal if I estimate .06gal/lb grain absorption)
Boil 60 mins
post boil volume = 5.25galons at 12.2 brix (1.049)
boil off = 1.6gallon/hour with PID at 70% (still too high)

max points: (11*35/5.25) = 73 points
actual points: 1.049 = 49
effiency: 66.8%

whhhhhyyyyyyy??? All this effort and I only got SG 1.049 / 66.8% efficiency

I mashed for 90mins, held a consistent mash temp with recirculation, no stuck mash, I put my water profile into Bru'n water and everything checked out fine with no need to add anything. Other brewers in my area don't need to adjust pH.

I'm tempted to go the opposite way now and crush very fine and not recirculate to see if there is a difference

 

[whovous]

Not recirculating has gotta reduce your efficiency, doesn't it?

I brewed over the weekend and my Barley Crusher just refused to hold a setting so I wound up using my cheapo Corona style mill instead. I'd only used it once before and that time I wound up with 88% efficiency. It was a lot more labor intensive than with the BC, but I got an extremely fine grind. I started with a 20 minute rest (6 brix) and then recirculated for an hour. I reached 10 brix after fifteen minutes and stayed there for the rest of the hour.

I did not do the math as carefully as you did, but BrewSmith tells me I wound up around 65%. This is definitely frustrating!

 

[augiedoggy]

^ I feel your pain... not sure if it was the gap on my mill but I got an extremely low 67% on the winter warmer I brewed last night... same with the bohemian pils I Brewed last week... in the past I have had efficiencies as high at 90% still trying to narrow down the issue.

 

[whovous]

Does mashing too high explain any of this? How high is too high?

 

[augiedoggy]

Does mashing too high explain any of this? How high is too high?

Not to hijack Stever1000's thread but, yes it would... Look back one page of this thread... Most people mash between 148 and 156 the higher you go the less fermentable sugars but more body the beer with usually have.. the lower will net you stronger alchohol but thinner tasting with less body.

 

[stever1000]

Not recirculating has gotta reduce your efficiency, doesn't it?

Probably right, unless I grind the grain very finely

I will probably take readings every 15min during the mash to check the progress, and buy some iodophur to test the conversion. So frustrating I am mashing 90mins and not extracting all the sugar

 

[EDF713]

Well, unless your temp is different than your probe thinks it is, or you have weak grain, I'm not sure what else to check. Otherwise grind is good, water is good, I take it you're still squeezing/draining the bag like you want to kill it. Sorry you're still having issues.

 

[stever1000]

Well, unless your temp is different than your probe thinks it is, or you have weak grain, I'm not sure what else to check. Otherwise grind is good, water is good, I take it you're still squeezing/draining the bag like you want to kill it. Sorry you're still having issues.

Sorry I didn't mean to sound frustrated at anyone, just myself

I may try changing my probe location again.
I will have to recheck my probe accuracy. Last time I checked it was fine

I am investigating pH meters to test my mash pH. I didn't know single malt single hops needed an acidic adjustment so that may be another culprit...

 

[EDF713]

Sorry I didn't mean to sound frustrated at anyone, just myself

I may try changing my probe location again.
I will have to recheck my probe accuracy. Last time I checked it was fine

I am investigating pH meters to test my mash pH. I didn't know single malt single hops needed an acidic adjustment so that may be another culprit...

No worries, I think it came across how you meant. I got 60% eff on my first all grain brew and was frustrated!

At the least I would play around with Bru'n water or EZ water calculator to see if your water and grain bill get in the ballpark before buying a ph meter (unless you can borrow one). Pils malt doesn't add much acid so it's worth checking. It's even more important for BIAB than 3 vessel all grain since you use all the water for the mash.

 

[stever1000]

No worries, I think it came across how you meant. I got 60% eff on my first all grain brew and was frustrated!

At the least I would play around with Bru'n water or EZ water calculator to see if your water and grain bill get in the ballpark before buying a ph meter (unless you can borrow one). Pils malt doesn't add much acid so it's worth checking. It's even more important for BIAB than 3 vessel all grain since you use all the water for the mash.

Thanks for your help, it is wonderful to have such a helpful community of like minded people

I checked into Bru'n water but I will do it in more detail today since I am at loss what else to check

 

[whovous]

I've just gone back through this entire thread. Our systems are fairly similar. I use a 6 gallon pot and a Chugger pump (overkill!) with a second valve to restrict output flow. I also have a plate chiller and a commercial PID, but otherwise, we seem to be doing the same things and having similar problems. The first thing I plan to do is to devote more attention to making sure that temps never ramp up on me. Turning off the pump without ramping the PID down or off is a definite no-no.

I also have a Barley Crusher, like you do. I think the factory setting is too high for eBIAB. However, I've found that when I change settings, the changes don't stay changed. The problem got bad enough that I returned to my very annoying Corona mill for my latest brew. Issues with the grind can definitely affect your numbers.

I wonder if you can do better than a pizza pan for your false bottom. Take a look at Bobby's false bottom. That mesh screen allows a lot more circulation than does your pizza pan. More circulation should mean more efficiency. I was able to make my own from a baking screen thanks to my small pot. It might be harder to find something big enough to DIY with your pot, but I suspect your DIY skills are quite a bit better than mine.

 

[TexasWine]

Thanks for your help, it is wonderful to have such a helpful community of like minded people

I checked into Bru'n water but I will do it in more detail today since I am at loss what else to check

Take a look at Brewer's Friend pH prediction tool as well. That's my default tool.

I've never checked it against a pH meter, but everything I've read said that it's close enough. And my beers have turned out tasty!

 

[stever1000]

Here's the water calculator results with my tap water and smash...

 

[stever1000]

I wonder if you can do better than a pizza pan for your false bottom. Take a look at Bobby's false bottom. That mesh screen allows a lot more circulation than does your pizza pan. More circulation should mean more efficiency. I was able to make my own from a baking screen thanks to my small pot. It might be harder to find something big enough to DIY with your pot, but I suspect your DIY skills are quite a bit better than mine.

That's a good point. I was hoping there were enough holes that it would drain freely
Maybe not the case as you mention

 

[cbier60]

Your starting water profile is extremely low mineral level, plus I'm surprised to see ppm to such precision. Are you sure you have the units right? I have almost Pilsen water and the levels are much higher than that. Regardless, with BIAB (high qt/lb) and a simple base malt bill, your pH will be high w/o any mineral or acid adjustments. That may certainly be impacting your efficiency, especially if your mash pH is even higher than 5.7.

Just a gut feel, but I doubt the false bottom is an issue. I get much better BIAB efficiency than that w/o recirculation, similar crush. and just an occasional stir.

 

[EDF713]

Here's the water calculator results with my tap water and smash...

Wow, I have water envy. It should be a crime NOT to brew with that water.

I've been adding acid malt (2% of grain bill), and a teaspoon each of gypsum and calcium chloride to RO water, and I've been very happy with the results (besides a cream ale fermented too low with S5 that tasted like peaches, not a water issue). The only time I didn't use the acid malt was for an oatmeal stout that didn't need it. I think that was the culprit of my earlier efficiency problems, went from 60% to 65-75% with 70+% the norm.

 

[stever1000]

Your starting water profile is extremely low mineral level, plus I'm surprised to see ppm to such precision. Are you sure you have the units right? I have almost Pilsen water and the levels are much higher than that. Regardless, with BIAB (high qt/lb) and a simple base malt bill, your pH will be high w/o any mineral or acid adjustments. That may certainly be impacting your efficiency, especially if your mash pH is even higher than 5.7.

Just a gut feel, but I doubt the false bottom is an issue. I get much better BIAB efficiency than that w/o recirculation, similar crush. and just an occasional stir.

Yes the units are right, I took it directly from my area water report. All units are mg/L which equal ppm. The only one I converted was magnesium which was 168 ug/L so I divided by 1000 to get .168 mg/L.

It has been said on a few different occaision that Vancouver has near RO water. It tastes quite delightful

 

[whovous]

Your starting water profile is extremely low mineral level, plus I'm surprised to see ppm to such precision. Are you sure you have the units right? I have almost Pilsen water and the levels are much higher than that. Regardless, with BIAB (high qt/lb) and a simple base malt bill, your pH will be high w/o any mineral or acid adjustments. That may certainly be impacting your efficiency, especially if your mash pH is even higher than 5.7.

Just a gut feel, but I doubt the false bottom is an issue. I get much better BIAB efficiency than that w/o recirculation, similar crush. and just an occasional stir.

Different systems have different requirements, but if you have a recirculating system, recirculating matters. The more freely it circulates, the less likely a stuck mash and the more likely efficiency will be improved. Better circulation can never harm efficiency, and it might help.

 

[TexasWine]

Better circulation can never harm efficiency, and it might help.

There's always and unless...

Unless you have channeling. Unfortunately the rate of circulation alone isn't an indication of how well your system is functioning.

 

[whovous]

If you have channeling, will better circulation make things worse?

My real point was that a Bobby style screen is better than a pizza pan for eBIAB, and I am pretty sure we agree on that one.

 

[EDF713]

We know the mash ph can be improved, I say add some acid malt and salts before plunking down more money for a new false bottom.