Step Mash Question

[TRainH2o]

I am about to do my first step mash on a Kellerbier. It calls for bringing the mash to the following temps: 128˚F, 149˚F, 158˚F and them mashout.

I found a really useful calculator to use to determine the amount and temp of the water to use in my rectangular mash tun. http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/infusion.html

My questions are:
1. It asks for quarts per pound of grain. I was going to put in 1 quart per pound, is this correct?
2. It asks for infusion water temp. Part of me thinks I should use 212˚F water to bring it up quickly to the next step. Is this correct or will using boiling water lead to the excessive extraction of tannins?

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[diS]

1. I assume its ok since you"ll add more water for each step.
2. You can use boiling water if you want, or you can use any other higher temp. which will lead to more water volume and thinner mash.

If you are doing batch sparge keep in mind not to go over 4:1 grain to water ratio since it will extract tannins.

 

[TRainH2o]

I did the calculations with 170˚F water, sparge temp, and it looked like way too much water. I guess boiling is the way to go. I always thought going too far over 170˚F would lead to tannin extraction.

I wonder why it is different with step mash and decoction mashing?

 

[mattd2]

I did the calculations with 170˚F water, sparge temp, and it looked like way too much water. I guess boiling is the way to go. I always thought going too far over 170˚F would lead to tannin extraction.

I wonder why it is different with step mash and decoction mashing?

AFAIK you don't want you mash to get over 170, you can add water that is above 170 (i would stir pretty quickly to make sure there are no hot spots). This is basically what you do for a mash out, add ~180 water to get the mash temp up close to the 170 mark.

(Edit: change a bit of the wording and the reason why this is not bad explained below)
In decoction you remove some of the mash and boil that, then add it back so you a basically doing and infusion but using the some of the mash to raise the temp and not adding any additional water.
(/Edit )
And by the way all this is from a guy that has only done BIAB so here's your grain of salt to go with my advice , soon I will be more wise on the traditional mash process... soon

 

[emetcalf]

AFAIK you don't want you mash to get over 170, you can add water that is above 170 (i would stir pretty quickly to make sure there are no hot spots). This is basically what you do for a mash out, add ~180 water to get the mash temp up close to the 170 mark.

In decoction you remove the wort and boil that the add back so you a basically doing and infusion but using the mash water to raise the temp and not adding any additional water. As there should be minimal grain in the wort you remove to boil there should be minimal cahnce of tannins being extracted.

And by the way all this is from a guy that has only done BIAB so here's your grain of salt to go with my advice , soon I will be more wise on the traditional mash process... soon

You are right that you don't want the mash to go much above 170, but the decoction part isn't exactly right.

In a decoction, you do actually boil grain. The reason its not bad is because the PH of the decoction is low enough to avoid extracting tannins. If you boil mostly liquid, you will kill your enzymes and you hurt your chances of getting full conversion.

 

[Yooper]

AFAIK you don't want you mash to get over 170, you can add water that is above 170 (i would stir pretty quickly to make sure there are no hot spots). This is basically what you do for a mash out, add ~180 water to get the mash temp up close to the 170 mark.

In decoction you remove the wort and boil that the add back so you a basically doing and infusion but using the mash water to raise the temp and not adding any additional water. As there should be minimal grain in the wort you remove to boil there should be minimal cahnce of tannins being extracted.

And by the way all this is from a guy that has only done BIAB so here's your grain of salt to go with my advice , soon I will be more wise on the traditional mash process... soon

You are right that you don't want the mash to go much above 170, but the decoction part isn't exactly right.

In a decoction, you do actually boil grain. The reason its not bad is because the PH of the decoction is low enough to avoid extracting tannins. If you boil mostly liquid, you will kill your enzymes and you hurt your chances of getting full conversion.

Exactly want emetcalf said! You do NOT pull a thin mash- you actually pull the decoction from the thickest part of the mash. The reason has to do with pH, not temperature. In a very thick decoction, the pH will stay low so that you never have to worry about tannin extract.

The only time you use a thin mash with more liquid in a decoction is for the mash-out step.

 

[mattd2]

You are right that you don't want the mash to go much above 170, but the decoction part isn't exactly right.

In a decoction, you do actually boil grain. The reason its not bad is because the PH of the decoction is low enough to avoid extracting tannins. If you boil mostly liquid, you will kill your enzymes and you hurt your chances of getting full conversion.

Exactly want emetcalf said! You do NOT pull a thin mash- you actually pull the decoction from the thickest part of the mash. The reason has to do with pH, not temperature. In a very thick decoction, the pH will stay low so that you never have to worry about tannin extract.

The only time you use a thin mash with more liquid in a decoction is for the mash-out step.

Thanks for correcting me, changed my posted to avoid anyone getting the wrong idea
I was thinking that only boiling part of the liquid would leave enough enzymes left in the main mash to get conversion, but thinking about it more I realise that after you did 2 or 3 decoctions most of your enzymes would be dead and you would be screwed on getting the mash to convert fully (especially as the last deco would be before the sacch rest where you need them the most!)
Cheers again!

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for correcting me, changed my posted to avoid anyone getting the wrong idea
I was thinking that only boiling part of the liquid would leave enough enzymes left in the main mash to get conversion, but thinking about it more I realise that asfter you did 2 or 3 decoctions most of your enzymes would be dead and you would be screwed on getting the mash to convert fully (especially as the last deco would be before the sacch rest where you need them the most!)
Cheers again!

One of the cool things about decoction is that you pull the decoction from the thickest part of the mash and then bring it to the next rest temperature so you do have conversion. After holding it there, you bring it to a boil, and add back to your MLT so that the entire mash is brought up to the next rest temperature. I get very high efficiencies from decoction mashing!

 

[mattd2]

One of the cool things about decoction is that you pull the decoction from the thickest part of the mash and then bring it to the next rest temperature so you do have conversion. After holding it there, you bring it to a boil, and add back to your MLT so that the entire mash is brought up to the next rest temperature. I get very high efficiencies from decoction mashing!

How do you go about pulling the thickest part of the mash out? giant ladel / small pot? I am guessing you need to dig down into the bottom of the mash tun?

 

[Yooper]

How do you go about pulling the thickest part of the mash out? giant ladel / small pot? I am guessing you need to dig down into the bottom of the mash tun?

Yes, I have a pitcher (so I can measure it) that I dig in there with and pour off any excess liquid I get accidently.

 

[TRainH2o]

Thanks for all the tips. Even though I am not doing a decoction mash, I am doing this small beer to make ready for a larger Bock. This info will be invaluable.

 

[emetcalf]

I have only used decoction once. I used a strainer to pull grain, and then a cup to get some liquid into the pot.