State Water Report Help and Brew'n Water

[cank]

So as you guessed I'm having trouble with my water and there is a lot of info out there. I am trying to wrap my head around it.

Can you let me know if I going about this the right way?

Here is my water profile:
Calcium 10.8
Magnesium 4.6
Sodium 13.4
Potassium 0.5
Iron 0.1

Sulfate 4.2
Chloride 15.4
Nitrate 0.8
Nitrite 0

Alkalinity is 52
PH is 6.7

Brew'n water calculates Bicarbonates at 63.4 and Carbonate at 0

Chlorine levels are at 1.5

So this seems soft and low on PH based on other things I've read but when I plug a grain bill into Brew'n Water my mash PH is still too high

I made some water adjustments to fit the pale ale profile and mash ph is 5.6. Would it be better to get that lower?

Also, I am going to use campden tablets for my next brew to take out the chlorine, but what flavor does the chlorine add to your beer. Could this be the culprit?

I am going to send a sample to get tested and see if the results match up.

 

[mchrispen]

That is pretty good water for brewing. Of course, you mentioned campden to deal with the chlorine.

Personally, I would replace the magnesium chloride with calcium chloride, as I don't like the taste that magnesium brings, even at that level. Personal preference only.

You are not nearly matching the Pale Ale profile. Make sure that your volumes are correct on both the Water Adjustment and Mash Acidification tabs. Focus on raising your sulfate and chloride levels using gypsum and calcium chloride first. Then add any minor additions with Epsom (not usually needed). You want the Finished Water Profile line (row 13) to match more or less with the Pale Ale Profile line (row 5). If you read the tooltips as you mouse over the green boxes - they are designed to give red-light / green-light in certain circumstances, not as indicators to matching a profile. For example - the box for sulfate will go ORANGE in warning if you match the Pale Ale profile with 300 ppm Sulfate.

Using your water profile and matching the Pale Profile, I can achieve it with 2 grams/gallon gypsum and 0.30 grams/gallon calcium chloride. While this seems like a lot to add - it does match the profile within reason. That said - I feel duty bound to warn you that many people may find those levels of sulfate objectionable - others will like it just fine. I am drinking a very good pale ale right now brewed with that profile. The origins of sulfate levels that high - are covered by Martin's article this month in Zymurgy. I would not put that much gypsum in my beer, unless I knew pretty well I liked those levels. I also tend to avoid additions that add sodium or magnesium, unless absolutely necessary to hit a specific flavor.

You didn't post your recipe, so cannot comment on your specific mash pH. However, you may need to add either some little bit of liquid acid or alkalinity to achieve the proper pH, likely alkalinity. You can calculate this with Baking Soda or Pickling Lime (my preference is lime) and not chalk in the spreadsheet. Have the alkaline additions set aside from the other additions, and add them after you have confirmed that you will need the additional alkalinity with a pH meter or strips.

 

[cank]

Matt,
Thanks so much. This was the sort of info I was looking for. I wasn't sure what parts to focus on. I have to read up on sulfate and magnesium.

I had to read the walkthrough in your sig twice to understand it. Thanks again.

I know I need a PH meter, but with this info and test strips, do you feel getting good results is possible?

 

[mchrispen]

Cank,

Assuming that you like that level of sulfates, I am pretty confident in the spreadsheet. I have been using it for sometime and found it pretty accurate as a prediction. Still garbage in = garbage out. If you are comfortable with the strips, then I think you can proceed with confidence. Just remember the readings need to be adjusted. Search here for Colorhast strips. I don't remember the adjustments, and be sure to cool the sample to room temperature.

With the high calcium level in the profile, you will need that alkaline addition. Make sure to add it separately... And don't neglect the sparge additions.

Make sure to take notes and critically taste the final product. You may prefer less sulfate, and could brew the next batch of this beer with half the additions.

 

[ajdelange]

So as you guessed I'm having trouble with my water and there is a lot of info out there. I am trying to wrap my head around it.

Can you let me know if I going about this the right way?

Here is my water profile:
Calcium 10.8
Magnesium 4.6
Sodium 13.4
Potassium 0.5
Iron 0.1

Sulfate 4.2
Chloride 15.4
Nitrate 0.8
Nitrite 0

Alkalinity is 52
PH is 6.7

Brew'n water calculates Bicarbonates at 63.4 and Carbonate at 0

It is sufficient to specify alkalinity and pH. Bicarbonate would be 62.0 and carbonate 0.01 mg/L but we don't really care about those.

Iron is right at the limit. The EPA SMCL is 0.3 but for brewing less than 0.1 mg/L is preferred.

So this seems soft and low on PH based on other things I've read

It is pretty soft - in fact it is quite low in all mineral which is good in the sense that it grants you great flexibility without having to use RO (provided the iron isn't troublesome). pH of the water itself is of secondary importance unless it gets below 6 or above 9. What counts is the alkalinity.

For most ales and most palates it would be a good idea to add about 2.5 g CaCl2 and 2.5 g CaSO4 per 5 gal treated. This will boost the calcium level which will have a small effect on pH reduction, increase the chloride to the point where you get some mouthfeel improvement and establish a nominal sulfate level. This latter is a matter of taste and can be adjusted up or down per personal preference based on taste tests made on the beer brewed with these nominal additions.

...but when I plug a grain bill into Brew'n Water my mash PH is still too high

What pH you get depends in large measure on the DI mash pH of your base malt which can vary from below 5.6 to above 5.8. Using a low DI mase malt like Maris Otter in conjuction with even a models amount of even fairly low colored caramel or crystal malt will get you a pH below 5.6 which is OK for most beers. A bit of sauermalz (1%) whould get you about 0.1 pH lower than that. With a base malt with higher DI mash pH you would want more sauermalz (or its equivalent in lactic or phopshoric acid).
I made some water adjustments to fit the pale ale profile and mash ph is 5.6.

Would it be better to get that lower?

[than 5.6] Yes, probably

Also, I am going to use campden tablets for my next brew to take out the chlorine, but what flavor does the chlorine add to your beer. Could this be the culprit?

You didn't say what the nature of the problem is but if your beer tastes or smells like bandaids or other plastic then yes, chlorphenolics from chloramine could be the problem.

 

[cank]

My LHBS only had wine making adjustment chemicals by LD Carlson

I picked up some things but when I got back home they did not match up and I'm not sure if I could substitute these:

Potassium Bicarbonate
Calcium Carbonate
Acid Blend (Contains Food grade Citric, Malic and Tartaric acid)

Can I use these and at what levels do I plug them into Bru'n Water?

They did have Gypsum

 

[mchrispen]

Yeah those three are used in wine and cider. Not sure how useful in beer brewing, although I have seen acid blend used in some sours after primary fermentation.

Calcium Carbonate is chalk and largely useless as an alkaline addition as it just doesn't dissolve well in the brewery. Without a pH meter to watch the change, I would not trust it... pickling/slaked lime can be picked up cheap in the pickling section of your grocery, usually near the Ball Mason jars. I have no idea what the potassium portion of the potassium bicarb addition might do in the beer (probably nothing)... the bicarbonate would add alkalinity, but again, without observation with a pH meter, I would hesitate.

Bru'n doesn't support those salts, except for the chalk.

 

[cank]

I sent off a sample last Friday because I got a call back from my city and was told there was no way to tell which pumping station filled the water tower that fed our house and it was probably a combination of two or more stations. This made me question my assumptions but also made me wonder how reliable even the Ward Lab report will be at any given time of the year?

I Just got my ward Labs water report back:
PH 7.9
Alkalinity 70

Calcium Ca 16
Magnesium Mg 6
sodium Na 16
Potassium K <1
Iron Fe .04

Bicabonate HCO3 86
Carbonate CO3 <1
Sulfate SO4-S 3
Chloride Cl 14
Nitrate NO3-N .05

Hardness CaCO3 65


The numbers are a little higher with more Alkalinity and a higher PH

 

[mchrispen]

I think the previous advice holds, but you may need some acid to deal with the alkalinity...

And get that pH meter!

Cheers!