What is the reason the star san turns cloudy? Is it done?
If your starsan is turning cloudy as soon as you make it malkore, you may very well not be sanitizing effectively. IIRC, talley recommends mixing it up with distilled or RO water for longest life, and if you can't get ANY life out of it with your tap water, you may be forced to go that route.Charles Talley said:[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]First it is still active as long as the pH is below 3, and the solution is clear. When the solution turns cloudy the soap in Star San has reacted with the mineral in the make-up water and has made the final solution useless. [/FONT]
Personally I'm still much more inclined to believe the manufacturer - pH below 3.0, and cloudy=worthless. Charlie Talley seems like a pretty down-to-earth guy, after listening to the podcast he was in, so I am inclined to believe that his guidelines are well-founded, and not just stated way overconservative to cover his own a$$. Like everything when it comes to sanitizing in homebrewing, you can certainly get lucky and never have any problems even if you barely sanitize at all, but most people don't want to take the chance. I'm sure starsan still sanitizes if it's cloudy and at pH 3.4, but I still wouldn't trust that it sanitizes as well as a clear solution at pH 3.0 or less. I think that if my tap water was hard enough that I couldn't get clear starsan solution with it, I would switch to filtered water, or switch to a different sanitizer (like iodophor) if acquiring filtered water was too much of a hassle.pjj2ba said:Malkore is correct, as long as the pH is below 3.4, it doesn't mater if it is cloudy or not. StarSan contains phosphoric acid which will react with Calcium to form insoluble Calcium Phosphate, which is why it becomes cloudy. Mine is always cloudy and I've checked the pH numerous times and it has always been below 3.4. I've never had a problem.
pjj2ba said:Malkore is correct, as long as the pH is below 3.4, it doesn't mater if it is cloudy or not. StarSan contains phosphoric acid which will react with Calcium to form insoluble Calcium Phosphate, which is why it becomes cloudy. Mine is always cloudy and I've checked the pH numerous times and it has always been below 3.4. I've never had a problem.
If you want to reduce the calcium in your water you can simply add a little food grade phosphoric acid, give it a good mix and let it settle overnight.
Seeing as how it says, that simply adding phosphoric acid is sufficient to correct any issues with cloudiness, this leads me to believe the cloudiness is not due to any loss of the detergent, but is the reaction between calcium and the phosphoric acid. Calcium phophate is pracitally insoluble in plain water, but is slightly soluble in dilute acid solutions (according to the Merck index). Adding more acid will cause the Calcium phosphate to dissolve and clear the solution. On the other hand, the detergent is soluble up to a 20% solution (20gm/100 ml H20), or very soluble.When solution begins to cloud, sweeten with Star San or Phosphoric Acid. Solution must
remain at a pH at 3 or below to maintain proper sanitizing level.
pjj2ba said:I believe it is actually a synergistic action between the low pH and the detergent. Neither one does a good job alone. Okay it is a pH of 3.0, not 3.4. From the 5-star website:
Seeing as how it says, that simply adding phosphoric acid is sufficient to correct any issues with cloudiness, this leads me to believe the cloudiness is not due to any loss of the detergent, but is the reaction between calcium and the phosphoric acid. Calcium phophate is pracitally insoluble in plain water, but is slightly soluble in dilute acid solutions (according to the Merck index). Adding more acid will cause the Calcium phosphate to dissolve and clear the solution. On the other hand, the detergent is soluble up to a 20% solution (20gm/100 ml H20), or very soluble.
I did a little more reading. The detergent is very common in laundry detergents. It has very good solubility in the presence of high Ca and Mg so hard water does not affect its effectiveness (as a laundry detergent). So I doubt any cloudiness is due to a problem with the detergent, so as long as the pH is below 3.0, according to the Star San product sheet it should still be effective.
e lo said:the directions recommending sweetening with additional Star San if it becomes cloudy
e lo said:It's not just the acidity that kills bacteria and yeast, it's the comibnation of the pH and the detergent in StarSan. Low pH alone won't sterilize. Lactobacillus species, in particular, can live quite happily in pHs down to 2.0 (see http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=193868).
So if, as Talley himself said in the podcast, IIRC, the cloudiness is an indication of loss of detergent effectiveness, pH <3.4 won't do much for you if your solution is cloudy.
Got Trub? said:My understanding was that you shoudln't use it once it turns cloudy as that was an indication the pH was too high and it was no longer effective. Mine will last about 6 weeks before it starts to get cloudy, I then toss it and make another batch.
Theres a podcast about using Star San by its creator over at Basic Brewing Radio.
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2007. Alot of usefull information about how to use my second favourite sanitizer/cleaner bleach there as well.
GT
malkore said:by this logic, I cannot use star san with my tap water. When I say it becomes cloudy instantly, I mean it. the only time I"ve seen clear star san is the one time I mixed it w/ distilled water.
I'd like to add I've never had an infection...not before star san came to my brew house, and not since.
malkore said:I'd like to add I've never had an infection...not before star san came to my brew house, and not since.
malkore said:by this logic, I cannot use star san with my tap water. When I say it becomes cloudy instantly, I mean it. the only time I"ve seen clear star san is the one time I mixed it w/ distilled water.
I'd like to add I've never had an infection...not before star san came to my brew house, and not since.
pjj2ba said:Another observation about the pH. I use Star San in my airlocks and once the bubbling gets going the originally cloudy Star san becomes clear. I'm assuming this is due to the carbonic acid being produced as the CO2 bubbles through. I'll have to check the actual pH tonight.
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