Spike Conical- observations and best practices

[eric19312]

I do like my racking arm but it is always in down position except when I am using it with the carb stone. A good cold crash and several careful dumps of trub then yeast then dry hops twice gets me to clog free transfers even with big dry hop loads. Well 2 times out of 3 now, last time I got one clog right at the very beginning in my black ball lock connector but after that was smooth sailing and I was filling kegs in less than 10 min each.

Hops are commando and I am still doing the rousing thing and liking the results.

 

[jekeane]

Anyone using this https://www.brewhardware.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=spundingvalvecrossTC15&CartID=1 rather than the spike manifold? I like the Spike one but this one is a fair bit less expensive.

 

[FswBG]

Anyone using this https://www.brewhardware.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=spundingvalvecrossTC15&CartID=1 rather than the spike manifold? I like the Spike one but this one is a fair bit less expensive.

That looks like a nice option. The only concern I would have is that the spunding/relief goes up to 30psi without a safety PRV like the Spike manifold. If someone inadvertently tightened it over 15 psi it could damage the conical and possibly anyone around it.

 

[jekeane]

That looks like a nice option. The only concern I would have is that the spunding/relief goes up to 30psi without a safety PRV like the Spike manifold. If someone inadvertently tightened it over 15 psi it could damage the conical and possibly anyone around it.

yeah that could be an issue for sure.

the product description reads like it takes a little more work setting it up as well. Seems like it wants a valve in between the manifold and the tank so you can set the spunding valve. I would prefer that it was set up the same for the lower price.

Ill probably wind up just getting the spike ones to keep everything the same.

 

[Beholder]

I commando exclusively and never a clogged poppet. I also typically keep racking arm straight down and don’t bother with the rotation unless clarity is critical, as it will drop clear at some point anyhow.

Key steps are dropping the cone slowly and I also flush the racking arm through a TC sampling valve during fermentation while taking SG readings. Knock on wood I suppose...

 

[awoitte]

For the guys transferring to kegs: I assume you're filling a keg with CO2 either by letting the CO2 from the fermentation fill/purge the keg or by filling once you're about to transfer.

What pressure do you fill you keg with prior to xfer, what pressure are you using to push the beer out of CF into keg, and what is your spunding valve on the keg set to?

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I commando exclusively and never a clogged poppet. I also typically keep racking arm straight down and don’t bother with the rotation unless clarity is critical, as it will drop clear at some point anyhow.

Key steps are dropping the cone slowly and I also flush the racking arm through a TC sampling valve during fermentation while taking SG readings. Knock on wood I suppose...

So you put your tracking arm in place followed by the butterfly valve then the sampling port.... so your slow dumps then open the butterfly and purge the racking arm controlling the flow with the sample valve? .. seems like a great idea, I never worried about purging the racking arm because for me it gets cleared out when I carbonate. But for times when I dont carb in the fermenter I may take that approach.

 

[Beholder]

For the guys transferring to kegs: I assume you're filling a keg with CO2 either by letting the CO2 from the fermentation fill/purge the keg or by filling once you're about to transfer.

What pressure do you fill you keg with prior to xfer, what pressure are you using to push the beer out of CF into keg, and what is your spunding valve on the keg set to?

I typically do 5 psi delta between fermenter and keg to avoid fast transfer foaming, 5/10, 7/12, 10/15, etc. the last option is easiest as no need to pressure keg up to serving if I’m storing it, but sometimes trips the PRV, so I typically dial it back a few psi

 

[Beholder]

So you put your tracking arm in place followed by the butterfly valve then the sampling port.... so your slow dumps then open the butterfly and purge the racking arm controlling the flow with the sample valve? .. seems like a great idea, I never worried about purging the racking arm because for me it gets cleared out when I carbonate. But for times when I dont carb in the fermenter I may take that approach.

yeah, racking, butterfly, sampling, and pressure coil if carbed up. I typically spund and finish carb from top after cold crashing, but if in a hurry will carb stone via a TC tee on bottom after dropping cone and cold crashing. Get carbed up in hours via monitoring headspace pressure, but will often drop remaining trub on the stone, so speed isn’t without its minor annoyances.

 

[eric19312]

For the guys transferring to kegs: I assume you're filling a keg with CO2 either by letting the CO2 from the fermentation fill/purge the keg or by filling once you're about to transfer.

What pressure do you fill you keg with prior to xfer, what pressure are you using to push the beer out of CF into keg, and what is your spunding valve on the keg set to?

Kegs get full starsan purge with CO2 at 15 PSI cause I am in a hurry and then spunded down to 10 PSI before filling
Beer in the fermenter is fully carbed at 11 PSI
Headspace in fermentor set to 14 PSI
Spunding valve on keg during filling at 10 PSI

I am still pretty new to this about 10 batches but this seems to work well.

 

[awoitte]

Kegs get full starsan purge with CO2 at 15 PSI cause I am in a hurry and then spunded down to 10 PSI before filling

So you fill up the keg entirely w/ starsan, seal, and then push all the starsan out with CO2?

Does that use less CO2 than sanitizing, dumping, sealing and then filling with CO2 (rather than emptying with pressure)?

 

[Nate R]

So you fill up the keg entirely w/ starsan, seal, and then push all the starsan out with CO2?

Does that use less CO2 than sanitizing, dumping, sealing and then filling with CO2 (rather than emptying with pressure)?

Pushing a full (or as full as you can get it) keg of star san out in really the only way to truly purge a keg. Blasting it with co2 works, but there is more.oxygen in the keg vs. a starsan purge.
Always purge the head space first once youve filled it with star san tho.

Note- i saw a lodo guy who boiled the water for his star san purges... too much for me!!

 

[eric19312]

So you fill up the keg entirely w/ starsan, seal, and then push all the starsan out with CO2?

Does that use less CO2 than sanitizing, dumping, sealing and then filling with CO2 (rather than emptying with pressure)?

yes much less CO2 for a very effective purge. It takes something like 30 fill and purges at 30 psi to reach same level of oxygen in the purged keg. That would use close to 60x the amount of CO2 needed for one star-San push.

 

[Yesfan]

I commando exclusively and never a clogged poppet. I also typically keep racking arm straight down and don’t bother with the rotation unless clarity is critical, as it will drop clear at some point anyhow.

Key steps are dropping the cone slowly and I also flush the racking arm through a TC sampling valve during fermentation while taking SG readings. Knock on wood I suppose...

Just curious, why do you have the sample valve on the racking port since the sample valve has its own port? For flushing the racking arm, could you just use a gas ball lock x 1.5tc adapter on the racking port and hit it with gas?

For the guys transferring to kegs: I assume you're filling a keg with CO2 either by letting the CO2 from the fermentation fill/purge the keg or by filling once you're about to transfer.

What pressure do you fill you keg with prior to xfer, what pressure are you using to push the beer out of CF into keg, and what is your spunding valve on the keg set to?

I've only ran two batches in my CF10. I've not spunded a batch yet. When I get ready to keg, I have two kegs filled to the very top with starsan and a 1.5tc ball lock post on my CF for gas. I have the full (and empty) weight of my kegs recorded on them. I purge the small amount of air trapped under the lid with co2, then I push the star-san out with about 2-3 lbs of pressure. I use the same amount of pressure pushing beer from the CF into the kegs. I have each keg on a scale and fill until I hit the target weight.

 

[jekeane]

If you have a the manifold on you can be using your fermentation gases to purge your kegs. This will save you a ton of gas in the long run. There are a few photos throughout on others set ups. Here is mine with CF5's.

The Keg on the right was initially filled with star san, the gas side diptube is trimmed flush with the underside of the keg post.

The Keg on the left is empty and I place a small of wood about 1/2" thick under the gas side. This allows the star san to fill most of the lid space before reaching the gas post.



Gas to Gas line jumper from manifold to Gas in on full keg.

Liquid to Liquid line jumper from full keg to empty keg.

Gas Line on empty keg to blow off jar

When I am .004 or so from FG I pull the Liquid to Liquid jumper off and let both the now fully purged empty keg and the CF5 pressurize. I then use that pressure built up to start carbonation and secure the vessel for cold crashing.

Not in this setup is a Spunding valve which you could place on the purged keg. I believe Mongoose? has a photo of that in a much earlier post.

I generally keep one keg full of star san and it just gets moved down the line batch after batch. I have yet to get krausen in my eg / manifold and I generally fill my CF5 to 6 gallons.

The saved gas gas in the keg is also used to close loop transfer without using your co2 tank.

 

[Nate R]

If you have a the manifold on you can be using your fermentation gases to purge your kegs. This will save you a ton of gas in the long run. There are a few photos throughout on others set ups. Here is mine with CF5's.

The Keg on the right was initially filled with star san, the gas side diptube is trimmed flush with the underside of the keg post.

The Keg on the left is empty and I place a small of wood about 1/2" thick under the gas side. This allows the star san to fill most of the lid space before reaching the gas post.

View attachment 677212

Gas to Gas line jumper from manifold to Gas in on full keg.

Liquid to Liquid line jumper from full keg to empty keg.

Gas Line on empty keg to blow off jar

When I am .004 or so from FG I pull the Liquid to Liquid jumper off and let both the now fully purged empty keg and the CF5 pressurize. I then use that pressure built up to start carbonation and secure the vessel for cold crashing.

Not in this setup is a Spunding valve which you could place on the purged keg. I believe Mongoose? has a photo of that in a much earlier post.

I generally keep one keg full of star san and it just gets moved down the line batch after batch. I have yet to get krausen in my eg / manifold and I generally fill my CF5 to 6 gallons.

The saved gas gas in the keg is also used to close loop transfer without using your co2 tank.

Wow... great set up!!
As for Krasuen in the kegs... have you done an aggressive yeast like a true hefeweizen? (Imperial Stefon for example). I do a lot of hefe's and wonder if that yeast would climb?
Of course- i would see it in the tube, and could just use that keg for the same beer?

 

[jekeane]

I havent done it with a hefe strain but I actually open ferment that hefe strain for a couple days. I have done it with some pretty fluffy top croppers and have been fine so far. My theory is that the minimal pressure kept in the tank to push liquid to the next keg actually hods the krausen down a bit. But thats just a theory.

One does have to be careful doing this as a plugged prv / blow off could be an issue. I have often left a normal blow off on day 1 and then changed to the manifold set up day 2.

 

[Yesfan]

I may employ this on my next batch. I don't have the manifold, but do have a gas post TC and spunding valve to achieve more or less the same thing.




On a separate note, does anyone know where to get the corny lids that have the wider latch like the one on the right in jekeane's picture below?

 

[radwizard]

I’m getting around to doing some pressure fermentation with my cf5. I have a blichmann tc spunding valve that I want to use.

In hopes to not blow myself up, I wanted to ask what you guys are doing for a prv. I wish I could get a lid with the only a prv on it, but I have not found this option.

I have a ball lock spunding valve that I have used on corny kegs. I’m thinking attaching this to my blichmann would be the safer option.

Some pics:

What do you guys think? Tia

 

[NeoBrew]

I’m getting around to doing some pressure fermentation with my cf5. I have a blichmann tc spunding valve that I want to use.

In hopes to not blow myself up, I wanted to ask what you guys are doing for a prv. I wish I could get a lid with the only a prv on it, but I have not found this option.

I have a ball lock spunding valve that I have used on corny kegs. I’m thinking attaching this to my blichmann would be the safer option.

Some pics:View attachment 677341View attachment 677342

What do you guys think? Tia

My SS Brewtech Unitank has a 3" tricolver cap with an integral PRV. What size is the one on the top of the CF5? You could maybe buy one from them?

 

[Nate R]

I’m getting around to doing some pressure fermentation with my cf5. I have a blichmann tc spunding valve that I want to use.

In hopes to not blow myself up, I wanted to ask what you guys are doing for a prv. I wish I could get a lid with the only a prv on it, but I have not found this option.

I have a ball lock spunding valve that I have used on corny kegs. I’m thinking attaching this to my blichmann would be the safer option.

Some pics:View attachment 677341View attachment 677342

What do you guys think? Tia

Edit- sorry my bad. Missed the tri clamp part.
Look at NorCalBrewingSoultions or Brewers Haedware. I am sure there is a solution.
But cheapest might be to switch the triclamp to gas ball lock if you can, then whay i wrote below would.work.

~~~~~~~
Not sure i get your question:
Why not use the normal Spike manifold. That alreafy has PRV on it.
Then attach your gas-balllock.spunding valve to the gas-in post.
Theb you are done.
Lots.of folks here do just that.

 

[Nate R]

Hey all. Happy Covid-Brewing. When you brew on a Saturday does it still count? Lol.

Anyways, i used my new sight glass with my new racking arm on the 1.5" butterfly valve port today to rack from my cf5.
Dang that is sweet!
I crashed for about 36 hours or so, and for this batch i didnt even dump trub first!
So easy!!
This was a pilsner, no dry hop, so not a lot of trub, but still.

I got the sight glass from the amazon, along with a new tc tee, clamps, gaskets, etc. Prices about half brew store prices, plus free shipping. Denord or denard i think. Seems to be just like the other pieces i get.

 

[Vale71]

I got the sight glass from the amazon, along with a new tc tee, clamps, gaskets, etc. Prices about half brew store prices, plus free shipping. Denord or denard i think. Seems to be just like the other pieces i get.

That's probably because they come from the exact same Chinese manufacturers...
Anything that's not highly customized you can usually get from China at half price or less on Alixpress.

 

[jekeane]

@Yesfan https://www.amazon.com/Beverage-Fac...keywords=corny+keg+lids&qid=1587859801&sr=8-8


Amazon has a variety of random lids. Problem is replacement lids cost 1/3 the price of a used keg.

 

[Yesfan]

Thank you for the link! I may still splurge on a couple, but yeah that would add up over time.

 

[eric19312]

I’m getting around to doing some pressure fermentation with my cf5. I have a blichmann tc spunding valve that I want to use.

In hopes to not blow myself up, I wanted to ask what you guys are doing for a prv. I wish I could get a lid with the only a prv on it, but I have not found this option.

I have a ball lock spunding valve that I have used on corny kegs. I’m thinking attaching this to my blichmann would be the safer option.

Some pics:View attachment 677341View attachment 677342

What do you guys think? Tia

https://www.amazon.com/Dernord-Sanitary-Clamp-Female-Clover/dp/B078LSTD5T
(Link isn’t quite working you want the 4 inch TC to 1/2 npt)
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/spikeprv.htm
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/npthexbush.htm

this would work until you decide you want the chilling coil.
If it was me I’d get the Spike manifold and use your corny keg spunding valve on its post.

 

[Bean]

deleted comment

 

[Jag75]

I am still having an issue with dumping trub and yeast . I've extended a silicone hose to about 2 ft , hooked up to co2 and opened the valve to the first notch . It started to come out then just stopped. I bumped up the pressure and nothing. I went to 2 clicks and it started to come out but then beer started to come out . I got a little bit of yeast but I left quite a bit behind . Dont know what to do . Good thing I'm not harvesting yeast yet .

 

[Nate R]

I am still having an issue with dumping trub and yeast . I've extended a silicone hose to about 2 ft , hooked up to co2 and opened the valve to the first notch . It started to come out then just stopped. I bumped up the pressure and nothing. I went to 2 clicks and it started to come out but then beer started to come out . I got a little bit of yeast but I left quite a bit behind . Dont know what to do . Good thing I'm not harvesting yeast yet .

I've moved to just building big azz starters and dumping all trub/yeast.
I wonder if having legs and a sight glass and dumping straight down is better than using the 90° elbow?
How do you do it?

 

[CodeSection]

I've moved to just building big azz starters and dumping all trub/yeast......

I overbuild my starters as well as it is cleaner and less hassle/mess.

I am still having an issue with dumping trub and yeast .....

What is your process? How many times do you dump? Is your first dump attempt before you cold crash? Do you dump again 24 hours after cold crashing? Do you then try dumping again after another six hours or so? Do you dump again before kegging or bottling? Again, what is your process?

Lastly, I have never needed to add CO2 to help assist to push out any trub/yeast. What yeast are you using? Yeast flocculation will have some affect. For instance, Wyeast 1214 has low - medium flocculation ~ really running just like thin creamy grits. WLP005 has high flocculation ~ similar to a very thick milkshake.

 

[Jag75]

@CodeSection - I've never cold crashed expect for this last time . Just kegged my Lager yesterday. It was 38f when I tried dumping. The other times I dump on day 7 . I hook up to co2 . I use a 2ft hose now as at first I used a shorter one . I was told to use a bit longer as it would help. I crack the valve to the first click and let it go . It starts to creep out but then just stops . So I would open the valve a little more to get the yeast to start moving again but then it would blow through and I'd close it back up to 1 click. I've used WLP001 , A07, GY054, WLP400 multiple times . Never have I been able to get a nice yeast dump. Once I keg the beer I'm left with a fair amount of yeast in the elbow .

 

[Jag75]

I've moved to just building big azz starters and dumping all trub/yeast.
I wonder if having legs and a sight glass and dumping straight down is better than using the 90° elbow?
How do you do it?

I have the elbow . Straight down might be easier but I dont have the sight glass. Maybe in the future.

 

[jekeane]

Just thought I would share this with y’all. I brew with lactobacillus, diastatic, and wild strains often and I use all the same equipment for the most part.

If you own an instant pot they are a pretty convenient tool for sterilization and general brewery use.

I just finished a saison using a sta 1 strain and Brett. After beers like this I break down all my ports clean them as usual then place all the parts in the instant pot for 12 minutes on pressure cook, high. At that point everything should be dead.

I do take off my plastic handles they have survived the pot and you can see I have a ball lock connector in the pot. I do this frequently though and have seen some deterioration of plastic handles at work from the process.

In summary, don’t fear the Brett. Embrace it, love it, then murder it in an instant pot!

 

[CodeSection]

@CodeSection - I've never cold crashed expect for this last time . Just kegged my Lager yesterday. It was 38f when I tried dumping. The other times I dump on day 7 . I hook up to co2 . I use a 2ft hose now as at first I used a shorter one . I was told to use a bit longer as it would help. I crack the valve to the first click and let it go . It starts to creep out but then just stops . So I would open the valve a little more to get the yeast to start moving again but then it would blow through and I'd close it back up to 1 click. I've used WLP001 , A07, GY054, WLP400 multiple times . Never have I been able to get a nice yeast dump. Once I keg the beer I'm left with a fair amount of yeast in the elbow .

My CF10 setup uses the 90 degree elbow. My tubing is roughly 18". I regularly use WLP001, which has medium flocculation. All the other yeast you listed have medium-low flocculation. My conclusion is the issue you are having has nothing to do with the elbow, tubing or yeast.

Are you using CO2 every time you are dumping? If so, why? I have never had to use CO2. I can understand why one may try to open the valve up one more click to see movement again. I have done that to speed up the dumping but only on higher flocculating yeast but not under CO2 pressure. For the most part, as others have suggested, opening the valve one click and giving it time (even if you believe there is no or very little movement) is enough.

You mention you are left with "a fair amount of yeast in the elbow". How much is that? Do you measure the trub/yeast volume that you are dumping? It sounds like you are only performing one dump, correct? You actually may be dumping all there is to dump at that point in your process and the build up you are seeing is additional trub/yeast the will continue to form after the first dump.

I routinely perform multiple trub/yeast dumps at different stages. With each trub/yeast dump, I measure and record the volume. That way I can compare the current recipe batch's trub/yeast volume with previous same recipe batch's trub/yeast volume and take note of any differences in volume that will alert me to the possibilty of more trub/yeast that still may exist in the current batch.

My suggestions would be to consider: 1) keeping the elbow in place; 2) stop using CO2; 3) start measuring your trub/yeast volume dumped; 4) try staying with opening the valve one click and give it several minutes; and 4) perform multiple trub/yeast dumps at different stages. Obviously, if dry hopping, you would perform more dumps....

EDIT: Multiple trub/yeast dumping is really not necessary if what you are already dumping brings the remaining trub/yeast below the racking arm. So, if your trub/yeast is below the racking arm, even after cold crashing, then I would not really worry about additional trub/yeast collecting in the elbow. After all, it will continue to fall to the bottom after seven days.....

 

[Jag75]

I only dump it once . This last time I I dumped at day 20. I did not measure how much was left . I believe I got the advice from @Blazinlow86 to use a longer tubing and adding co2 to pressure a tad.

 

[Vale71]

20 days is a long time. Even with a medium flocculating yeast you'll have the equivalent of a huge rubber stopper that will be very hard to dislodge. If you try to nudge it with pressure the risk of just punching a channel through the middle will be very high. You might want to consider doing 2-3 smaller dumps.

 

[NeoBrew]

Just thought I would share this with y’all. I brew with lactobacillus, diastatic, and wild strains often and I use all the same equipment for the most part.

If you own an instant pot they are a pretty convenient tool for sterilization and general brewery use.

I just finished a saison using a sta 1 strain and Brett. After beers like this I break down all my ports clean them as usual then place all the parts in the instant pot for 12 minutes on pressure cook, high. At that point everything should be dead.

I do take off my plastic handles they have survived the pot and you can see I have a ball lock connector in the pot. I do this frequently though and have seen some deterioration of plastic handles at work from the process.

In summary, don’t fear the Brett. Embrace it, love it, then murder it in an instant pot!



View attachment 678233View attachment 678234View attachment 678235View attachment 678236View attachment 678237

I use my instant pot to sanitize parts like the air stone too.

As a reference, pressure cookers and autoclaves typically use 15psi to raise the boiling point to 250f. That temp for 20 minutes is supposed to kill anything. The Instant Pots only get to a little over 12psi. It indicates in the manuals to not use it for things like canning. It doesn’t achieve the pressures and temps normally used for sterilizing.

It may very well be close enough, and it may kill off the things you use for fermentation. It’s probably not killing everything.

 

[Yesfan]

@Jag75 @Nate R The last batch I kegged, I had the elbow below the valve instead of above it. I bought a 2" triclamp/1/2" barb with a piece of 2ft silicone hosing.

I only dumped once, which was day 12-14, can't remember. It was an IPA with 6oz of dry hops. I didn't cold crash (not able to), so when I was ready to keg............

transferred the beer to kegs (scales are your friend)
dumped trub to a gallon pitcher (about 1/2 gallon amount)
"harvested" yeast to a pint jar. Pretty much, when the sediment went from peanut butter to creamy looking, I filled a sanitized pint mason jar. There was still some trub in there, but it's US-05 so, not a crucial save.

I cracked my valve about 1-2 notches. With the exception of my beer line clogging up with hop debris, I think I'm going to go the valve on top route from here on out. Obviously, the next batch I'll try to do some short multiple dumps vs waiting til kegging. I should have dumped first before doing any racking to my kegs. That would have eliminated my clogged disconnect issue.

Even though I didn't wait a lot longer, I wonder if "cold crashing" at a higher temp kept the sediment from really compacting to where it stalled. I don't know if it was that or if I had the valve above the elbow. This is only the second batch I've done in mine. I've also wondered if it would be better to have a reducer of some sorts between the elbow and barb. That way there's more of a taper going from the conical to the hose vs 2" straight to 1/2 like with the barb.

Just thought I'd share my experience thus far in case it helps.

 

[jekeane]

I use my instant pot to sanitize parts like the air stone too.

As a reference, pressure cookers and autoclaves typically use 15psi to raise the boiling point to 250f. That temp for 20 minutes is supposed to kill anything. The Instant Pots only get to a little over 12psi. It indicates in the manuals to not use it for things like canning. It doesn’t achieve the pressures and temps normally used for sterilizing.

It may very well be close enough, and it may kill off the things you use for fermentation. It’s probably not killing everything.

It is very likely killing all brewing related organisms brett, pedio lacto sacc. Very few of those organisms can survive past 185°. It is not assuredly killing botulinum spores (thus the no canning).

 

[Beholder]

Just thought I would share this with y’all. I brew with lactobacillus, diastatic, and wild strains often and I use all the same equipment for the most part.

If you own an instant pot they are a pretty convenient tool for sterilization and general brewery use.

I just finished a saison using a sta 1 strain and Brett. After beers like this I break down all my ports clean them as usual then place all the parts in the instant pot for 12 minutes on pressure cook, high. At that point everything should be dead.

I do take off my plastic handles they have survived the pot and you can see I have a ball lock connector in the pot. I do this frequently though and have seen some deterioration of plastic handles at work from the process.

In summary, don’t fear the Brett. Embrace it, love it, then murder it in an instant pot!



View attachment 678233View attachment 678234View attachment 678235View attachment 678236View attachment 678237

Good tip on the Instant Pot - I do the same. I’ve read for sterilization that 15 min at 15 psi (240 F) is necessary for bacteria, molds, and their spores, etc. Since the pressure for the Instant Pot only goes to ~11 psi (230 F), I run it for 30 minutes, which is also the the time the sterilize feature uses on the versions that have that button.