Spike Conical- observations and best practices

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So this week I dry hopped, cold crashed, transferred to kegs, cleaned and immediately refilled with a new brew. For dry hopping, I turned the gas on via the manifold and quickly dumped the hops through the 4". I found that pretty easy even with the chiller coil attached to lines etc. Perhaps not the best way to limit O2 ingress, but I could feel CO2 coming out of the port and I think I will stick to it for now. My dry hops all sank pretty quickly after breaking apart. So, I ordered the 2" TC gas post and will use that to circulate the hops next time they sink so quickly. During cold crash the psi went down from around 7 to about 5, so to transfer, I set my spund valve on my keg at 4...or so I thought. As soon as I opened the valve on the CF10, CO2 blew from the keg into the fermenter and I then noticed that my racking arm was still down, so that churned up some trub, but not too bad. Lesson(s) learned. The rest of transfer went very well. What I really liked was the ease of cleaning. I took it all apart since it looks like there are a bunch of nooks that things can get stuck in. It was easy to wash during mash and resanitize during the boil. As you can see, I am still learning, but this thread has been invaluable and I am really loving my CF10 (and Max2)!

Now to a question. How many of you BIAB? I do (wilser bag and tightest crush I can get on Barley Crusher), and I also let my boil/whirlpool hops go comando. This results in quite a bit of trub in the fermentor. Ground water is still warm here, so I have been transferring at 84 or so and have been waiting a few hours for the wort to get down to pitching temps, which also allows the trub to settle a bit. I've tried pre-pitch dumps and it seemed like I was losing a lot and the sight glass wasn't clearing up. I am wondering if I should even bother and just wait to dump until after fermentation? Or, does it make more sense to just overbuild even more (e.g., 13+ gallons into the CF10 to end up with 10 gallons in kegs) to account for all the loss? Anyone have experience with this?
 
Bad Bubba said:
Check your actual glycol temp. Something sounds off.
Click to expand...

The thermostat on the glycol chiller is accurate. I increased it to 33 yesterday and chilled down to 40 in steps once I confirmed the ice had melted. Seems to be doing ok now. Haven’t confirmed that no more ice had formed, but it shouldn’t at that temperature.

All I can figure is the freezing point of the beer is around 27-28 and trying to crash from 67 to 38 all at once resulted in having too long an exposure to glycol at that temperature even though it didn’t seem to take that long to cool down to temp, but that still shouldn’t have happened per Spike’s and Penguin’s recommendations. I have reached out to Spike’s technical service for their input.
 
I went with the lazy man's approach to dealing with the condensation. I have the tube setup so it comes out of the CF5, down the side and about 18" off the floor before it comes back up and into the chiller. This dip in the center is perfect for collecting the bulk of the condensation which drops into a bucket below. The condensation follows the tube rather than dropping straight to the floor so the bucket collects all of the water as it forms.

I also had my chilling fluid set to 12F so it obviously made a LOT of condensate...setting the chilling liquid to 28F helped. :)
 
The easiest thing you could do to control moisture would be to run the chiller at the highest temp you can and still hit your setpoint. If the glycol is above the condensation point it’s not going to condense. If you are doing lagers or cold crashing that’s probably not going to work for you.

If you want/need to take on the challenge. The best scenario would be to have the insulation homogeneous. The vapor barrier should be on the warm (outside) of the insulation. This gives it its best chance to stop the travel of moisture before it gets to the condensation point. All cracks and seams should be sealed air tight.

You might get away with doubling up your insulation, but any time you make a material change in the middle you run the risk of moisture settling at that transition because it tends to create a sharper temp change.
 
mcmeador said:
The thermostat on the glycol chiller is accurate. I increased it to 33 yesterday and chilled down to 40 in steps once I confirmed the ice had melted. Seems to be doing ok now. Haven’t confirmed that no more ice had formed, but it shouldn’t at that temperature.

All I can figure is the freezing point of the beer is around 27-28 and trying to crash from 67 to 38 all at once resulted in having too long an exposure to glycol at that temperature even though it didn’t seem to take that long to cool down to temp, but that still shouldn’t have happened per Spike’s and Penguin’s recommendations. I have reached out to Spike’s technical service for their input.
Click to expand...

Spike and Penguin are not engineering thier products to work together. I've had a ton of issues during cold crash with mine. I've effectively resigned to cold crashing down to 40F. No combinations of glycol temperatures, small temp drop steps, or ambient temperatures has been able to get me anywhere close to <35F on my beer. Additionally, the chiller itself drops a bunch of condensate all over my floor when it's struggling to keep temps down. It's infuriating for them to just point to each other after spending so much money on my system. Conveniently, I saw Penguin just released a chiller with a much larger glycol reservoir which I have been speculating is the main reason I can't hit my temps.
 
Fidelity101 said:
I went with the lazy man's approach to dealing with the condensation. I have the tube setup so it comes out of the CF5, down the side and about 18" off the floor before it comes back up and into the chiller. This dip in the center is perfect for collecting the bulk of the condensation which drops into a bucket below. The condensation follows the tube rather than dropping straight to the floor so the bucket collects all of the water as it forms.

I also had my chilling fluid set to 12F so it obviously made a LOT of condensate...setting the chilling liquid to 28F helped. :)
Click to expand...

i do the same thing. condensation collected is minimum, maybe half a cup. that is in the summer time when the basement is more humid, even less in winter time.

danclark714 said:
Spike and Penguin are not engineering thier products to work together. I've had a ton of issues during cold crash with mine. I've effectively resigned to cold crashing down to 40F. No combinations of glycol temperatures, small temp drop steps, or ambient temperatures has been able to get me anywhere close to <35F on my beer. Additionally, the chiller itself drops a bunch of condensate all over my floor when it's struggling to keep temps down. It's infuriating for them to just point to each other after spending so much money on my system. Conveniently, I saw Penguin just released a chiller with a much larger glycol reservoir which I have been speculating is the main reason I can't hit my temps.
Click to expand...

try insulating the conical itself. i wrap mine in a couple blankets during the crash, hand-clamping as necessary to get a 'closed' layer of blankets around the conical. made a huge difference in easily getting down to 30 degrees during a crash.
 
itsnotrequired said:
try insulating the conical itself. i wrap mine in a couple blankets during the crash, hand-clamping as necessary to get a 'closed' layer of blankets around the conical. made a huge difference in easily getting down to 30 degrees during a crash.
Click to expand...

Yeah I get that but my brewhouse is also an entertaining space for us. I shouldn't have to wrap a bunch of equipment in blankets; I haven't seen breweries doing anything like that. The ambient temps I keep fairly low too. I think they just need to improve the design either with the conical/coil, the chiller, or both. Just my $0.02. The systems work great in all other steps of the process; just not cold crashing.
 
danclark714 said:
I shouldn't have to wrap a bunch of equipment in blankets; I haven't seen breweries doing anything like that.
Click to expand...
That's because large fermenters are already pre-wrapped i.e. jacketed. This is a well-known issue with smaller non-jacketed conicals that use immersion coils as heat exchangers. On the one hand you already have the disadvantage of a rather large surface-to-volume ratio. Compound that with poor insulation (neoprene jackets are only marginally effective) and the very small surface of the coil and you won't be able to reach temperatures much below 34-35°F no matter what brand of glycol chiller you buy.
 
danclark714 said:
Yeah I get that but my brewhouse is also an entertaining space for us. I shouldn't have to wrap a bunch of equipment in blankets; I haven't seen breweries doing anything like that. The ambient temps I keep fairly low too. I think they just need to improve the design either with the conical/coil, the chiller, or both. Just my $0.02. The systems work great in all other steps of the process; just not cold crashing.
Click to expand...

commercial conicals are jacketed, no need to add extra insulation over the outer surface. they make jacketed conicals at the homebrew scale but selection is limited and they are spendy, you get what you pay for. that being said, the spike insulating sleeve on the conical looks nice but really isn't a great insulator. that is one improvement i hope the offer, an upgraded jacket. won't help with sweat on the sight glass, bottom valve, elbows, etc. but will go a long way in helping with cold crash.

EDIT: ^what he said :D
 
danclark714 said:
Spike and Penguin are not engineering thier products to work together. I've had a ton of issues during cold crash with mine. I've effectively resigned to cold crashing down to 40F. No combinations of glycol temperatures, small temp drop steps, or ambient temperatures has been able to get me anywhere close to <35F on my beer. Additionally, the chiller itself drops a bunch of condensate all over my floor when it's struggling to keep temps down. It's infuriating for them to just point to each other after spending so much money on my system. Conveniently, I saw Penguin just released a chiller with a much larger glycol reservoir which I have been speculating is the main reason I can't hit my temps.
Click to expand...

Cold crashing is the main reason I went with conical in a freezer over glycol in a coil route.

This is a long thread but if you are thinking about buying one of these there is some good experience shared in these pages. @mongoose33 described well his realization that he would need substantial insulation to get cold crashing to work well and I seem to remember him or someone else ended up building an insulated box to keep the conical in while crashing....

With conical in a freezer I have no issues cold crashing to sub 30F temperatures. I do have a small fan in my freezer and all that stainless steel surface area makes for excellent heat transfer. I use a dual probe dual stage temp controller to keep freezer from getting too cold when cold crashing but still can take my CF15 from 55F to 28F in less than a day. I've also had no issues with condensation. During summer I might get some condensation on floor of freezer but it's contained and easy to clean up.
 
danclark714 said:
Spike and Penguin are not engineering thier products to work together. I've had a ton of issues during cold crash with mine. I've effectively resigned to cold crashing down to 40F. No combinations of glycol temperatures, small temp drop steps, or ambient temperatures has been able to get me anywhere close to <35F on my beer. Additionally, the chiller itself drops a bunch of condensate all over my floor when it's struggling to keep temps down. It's infuriating for them to just point to each other after spending so much money on my system. Conveniently, I saw Penguin just released a chiller with a much larger glycol reservoir which I have been speculating is the main reason I can't hit my temps.
Click to expand...

I build a Glycol chiller out of an old AC unit and a cooler. I can get my CF15 in the 20's with ease and keep it there if need be with a 10 degree drop in less than an hour. Condensation was an issue with the first chiller I build but after beefing up the insulation it isn't an issue anymore except for what comes off the conical. I have to keep a sponge on top as the lip catching the condensation started to show some rust after a few brews.

Make sure you have the input and output setup correctly for how cold you are trying to take it, one way is rated from less then 40 the other for above.
 
Spike replied that when going below 40 degrees, you should switch the orientation on the coil (change to glycol going directly to the bottom and then moving up) due to temperature inversion. They said if you continue running it from top to bottom, you can have icing at the top.

The ice forming on my coil was toward the bottom, though, and I only cooled to 38 degrees. Doesn’t sound like this is the explanation I was looking for, but I’ll switch the orientation around next time when I reach 40 and see if that improves the situation. I’ll probably also do it in steps rather than all at once.
 
mcmeador said:
Spike replied that when going below 40 degrees, you should switch the orientation on the coil (change to glycol going directly to the bottom and then moving up) due to temperature inversion. They said if you continue running it from top to bottom, you can have icing at the top.

The ice forming on my coil was toward the bottom, though, and I only cooled to 38 degrees. Doesn’t sound like this is the explanation I was looking for, but I’ll switch the orientation around next time when I reach 40 and see if that improves the situation. I’ll probably also do it in steps rather than all at once.
Click to expand...

I would be much happier if they just admitted that thier system isn't designed to cold crash beyond ~40F in regular ambient temps instead of wasting all of our time having us try things they know won't work.
 
danclark714 said:
I would be much happier if they just admitted that thier system isn't designed to cold crash beyond ~40F in regular ambient temps instead of wasting all of our time having us try things they know won't work.
Click to expand...
pretty sure its your process. Mine sits in a open air garage and have I have no issues crashing into the 20F and leaving it there for days in the July heat of the north east.

Are your cooling lines insulated?
what temp to you have your chiller set to?
what side and you using as your in and out on the coil?
 
by chance could someone with a spike unitank can measure the length of their cooling coil? Looking for length of the CF5-15 versions. I need to replace my ssbrewtech one with one that is longer. Also looking to confirm its a 4” TC? Thanks.
 
Last edited:
marjen said:
by chance could someone with a spike unitank can measure the length of their cooling coil? Looking for length of the CF5-15 versions. I need to replace my ssbrewtech one with one that is longer. Also looking to confirm its a 4” TC? Thanks.
Click to expand...

I have to pull a batch in the next few days. I can get you my numbers then unless you get them before.
 
BoilerInSoCal said:
Now to a question. How many of you BIAB? I do (wilser bag and tightest crush I can get on Barley Crusher), and I also let my boil/whirlpool hops go comando. This results in quite a bit of trub in the fermentor. Ground water is still warm here, so I have been transferring at 84 or so and have been waiting a few hours for the wort to get down to pitching temps, which also allows the trub to settle a bit. I've tried pre-pitch dumps and it seemed like I was losing a lot and the sight glass wasn't clearing up. I am wondering if I should even bother and just wait to dump until after fermentation? Or, does it make more sense to just overbuild even more (e.g., 13+ gallons into the CF10 to end up with 10 gallons in kegs) to account for all the loss? Anyone have experience with this?
Click to expand...
I BIAB. BrewBag bag, Monster Mill at 0.018. Hops commando as you. I have a CF5 and depending on what I'm brewing get 5 to 6.5g in fermenter. Have the 2" sight glass at the bottom, too. When I dry hop with 5 ounces of pellets (commando) for my IPA recipe, I end up dumping about 90-100 ounces till sight glass isn't necesarily clear but not obvious hop/trub/yeast crud. Racking tube pointed down, I end up with clear beer going to keg, but at this point, my final amount to keg was about 4 gallons. Have not tried pre-fermentation dumping but there really isn't that much by the time I whirlpool and about 1-2 quarts trub/crud left in BK. When no dry hopping I dump less - last lager I did was about 5.2 g to fermenter, about 48 ounces dumped/yeast harvested and 4.5g final amount to keg.
 
mcmeador said:
Spike replied that when going below 40 degrees, you should switch the orientation on the coil (change to glycol going directly to the bottom and then moving up) due to temperature inversion. They said if you continue running it from top to bottom, you can have icing at the top.

The ice forming on my coil was toward the bottom, though, and I only cooled to 38 degrees. Doesn’t sound like this is the explanation I was looking for, but I’ll switch the orientation around next time when I reach 40 and see if that improves the situation. I’ll probably also do it in steps rather than all at once.
Click to expand...


I pulled my CF15 coil and measured it for you. The total length of the coil from the bottom of the flange is 26 inches. It's a 4 inch flange measuring a total of 4 5/8ths. Let me know if you need more numbers.
 
Getting ready to use my CF-5 for the first time. For cleaning, do you guys recommend removing all fittings after CIP, and cleaning them all separately, or is the CIP good enough?
Spike says on their site that CIP without removing fittings gives a satisfactory result, but it seems like there is a lot of places for nasties to hide.

Can anyone give me direction on their cleaning routine?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
 
Stonehenge360 said:
Getting ready to use my CF-5 for the first time. For cleaning, do you guys recommend removing all fittings after CIP, and cleaning them all separately, or is the CIP good enough?
Spike says on their site that CIP without removing fittings gives a satisfactory result, but it seems like there is a lot of places for nasties to hide.

Can anyone give me direction on their cleaning routine?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...

I clean mine by soaking in hot pbw . Drain, then rinse with hot water . Then ill take off the elbow and attachments and soak them in hot pbw , rinse and dry. I may go overboard but I can't help it lol.

I do admit that there's been a few times I haven't pulled them off and cleaned separately though.
 
the elbow fittings Spike has for the coil connections, are they a "quick disconnect" kind or more of a shark bite that once they're in they're in? I was hesatent to get them because I can't remove the coil without wheeling the thing outside and doing that attached to a chiller is a PITA so I just have a hose with worm gear on it right now with more hosing than I like so I don't pinch the flow.
 
I've had an issue trying to get my coil connects off. Instead of trying to force the issue, I just let them be (since it wasn't essential that I remove them).
 
i found the easiest way to remove them from the coil is using a wrench that fits just over the metal line and use that to put pressure on the release ring and they pop off fairly easy. 5/16 or 3/8 wrench maybe, cant quite remember at the moment.
 
Preface by stating if this has already been discussed in this thread, sorry, just kindly point me to the page(s).

I have used the CF5 for 6-7 batches, the last a lager. I have a penguin chiller. I use a blow off tube fro the 1.5" TC fitting on the lid into sanitary water sitting on the ground in a jug. When I cold crash, some of that liquid gets sucked up into the tubing and, in the case of the lager and the long lagering process, almost all of the sanitary liquid was sucked up into the conical/hose.

I am trying to determine how to get around this during cold crashing due to the negative pressure. I thought about replacing the TC fitting with the gas manifold fitting but unsure how that fitting handles negative pressure and/or if it is the correct way to go.

Appreciate your thoughts and time.

Cheers.
 
oach said:
Preface by stating if this has already been discussed in this thread, sorry, just kindly point me to the page(s).

I have used the CF5 for 6-7 batches, the last a lager. I have a penguin chiller. I use a blow off tube fro the 1.5" TC fitting on the lid into sanitary water sitting on the ground in a jug. When I cold crash, some of that liquid gets sucked up into the tubing and, in the case of the lager and the long lagering process, almost all of the sanitary liquid was sucked up into the conical/hose.

I am trying to determine how to get around this during cold crashing due to the negative pressure. I thought about replacing the TC fitting with the gas manifold fitting but unsure how that fitting handles negative pressure and/or if it is the correct way to go.

Appreciate your thoughts and time.

Cheers.
Click to expand...
Yeah you need the gas manifold so you can put a few pounds of CO2 pressure in there to cold crash
 
oach said:
I have used the CF5 for 6-7 batches, the last a lager. I have a penguin chiller. I use a blow off tube fro the 1.5" TC fitting on the lid into sanitary water sitting on the ground in a jug
Click to expand...
Using the same setup for lagers,just before the end of fermenting I switch the blow off for my spunding valve on the 1 1/2 “ tc on lid. I have the co2 connected and running at 2 psi while changing and hold valve upside down to fill with co2 prior to removing blow off and switching. Prior to yeast dump I put 3-4 psi in vessel , cold crash with 5 psi and add co2 as needed to keep above 3 psi while lagering , found my penguin to be working hard to hold lager at 34 so transferred to my 30l speidel with gas and beer ports at about 3 psi from nor cal to lager in my temp controlled freezer as it fits great.
 

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I’m thinking about hooking my cf-5 blowoff to a keg to purge during fermentation

has anyone had beer crawl out of the cf-5 blow off? Should I put an intermediate catch in the line before it goes to the keg?
 
Stonehenge360 said:
I’m thinking about hooking my cf-5 blowoff to a keg to purge during fermentation
Click to expand...
What type of yeast, beer, and ferment temp are you going to use ? Only time I have was an imperial ale that was aerated with o2 and fermented at 65, really blew out pretty good for almost two days, other than that nothing else with ipa’s lagers and ales.
 
HB2 HughBHomeBrew said:
I BIAB. BrewBag bag, Monster Mill at 0.018. Hops commando as you. I have a CF5 and depending on what I'm brewing get 5 to 6.5g in fermenter. Have the 2" sight glass at the bottom, too. When I dry hop with 5 ounces of pellets (commando) for my IPA recipe, I end up dumping about 90-100 ounces till sight glass isn't necesarily clear but not obvious hop/trub/yeast crud. Racking tube pointed down, I end up with clear beer going to keg, but at this point, my final amount to keg was about 4 gallons. Have not tried pre-fermentation dumping but there really isn't that much by the time I whirlpool and about 1-2 quarts trub/crud left in BK. When no dry hopping I dump less - last lager I did was about 5.2 g to fermenter, about 48 ounces dumped/yeast harvested and 4.5g final amount to keg.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I think I need to improve my whirlpool process. Perhaps I am not waiting long enough before transfer and/or I'm pulling the wort out of the kettle with too much force. Based on what I have been reading, many are suggesting there is no need for a pure trub dump prior to pitching, but rather just dump trub/yeast after fermentation. I also recently read somewhere that if you want to harvest cleaner yeast on option is to wait until fermentation has started and then do a quick trub dump? I'm brewing a NEIPA this weekend, and this will be my first smaller batch on the CF10, so we'll see how all this works out. I'm planning for 6.5 gal into my CF10. But with a 7 oz dry hop, I'm now questioning if that is not enough.
 
Stonehenge360 said:
I’m thinking about hooking my cf-5 blowoff to a keg to purge during fermentation

has anyone had beer crawl out of the cf-5 blow off? Should I put an intermediate catch in the line before it goes to the keg?
Click to expand...
I've done this with my CF10. I had 12 gallons of 1.070 SG fermenting with US-05. I used the manifold and created a "gas jumper" (6 ft. of gas line with ball lock gas connects on both ends) to connect to the "in" post on a star san filled keg. On the "out" side of the filled keg I connect a "liquid jumper" (2 ft. of bev line with ball lock liquid connects on both ends) and attach to the "out" of an empty keg. While I did not have any blow off into my gas jumper line, I did get some condensation as the ambient air cooled to close to ferm temps overnight. I was amazed at how fast this pushed 5 gal of star san out -- maybe an hour.
 
John1963 said:
What type of yeast, beer, and ferment temp are you going to use ? Only time I have was an imperial ale that was aerated with o2 and fermented at 65, really blew out pretty good for almost two days, other than that nothing else with ipa’s lagers and ales.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the heads up! Most of my brews are NEIPAs, with a few Kolsches, stouts, and saisons mixed in.

I guess the worst that can happen is i get some top crop in my keg and have to clean it and repurge
 
Quick question

I just dry hopped at 70 degrees. It is currently under 10 PSI in my spike flex +

I want to add super kleer in 2 days the same way i dry hopped (using a sight glass)


Can I decrease pressure to 2 psi and then drop in part A super kleer, rock the fermenter gently to swirl it around and then add part B the same way?
I'll have 5 psi in the sight glass to counter the 2 psi in the fermenter so everything drops in no problem.

Just not sure if 2 psi will prevent a vaccum even though it will be a fairly quick process
IMG_20201120_201331_158.jpg
 
Dem Castles said:
Can I decrease pressure to 2 psi and then drop in part A super kleer, rock the fermenter gently to swirl it around and then add part B the same way?
I'll have 5 psi in the sight glass to counter the 2 psi in the fermenter so everything drops in no problem.
Click to expand...
Why?
If the beer is at equilibrium and you drop the pressure while at the same time agitating the beer you can expect quite a lot of foaming.
 

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