Spices Quantities and yeast selection - Thai Saison

[mcwilcr]

I'm in the process of formulating a recipe for/with a friend for his wedding beer and am planning on hopefully brewing a test batch this weekend. He wants to make something wild with lots of traditional Thai spices, coconut and papaya. I'm not real worried about the coconut and the papaya since I have used coconut and similar fruit before but I am a bit concerned about some of the spices that I have never used before. I'm sure I'm leaving something out since I don't have the list in front front of me right now but here are my initial thoughts.

Allspice - 1 tsp.
cinnamon - 2-3 sticks ground
turmeric - 1 tsp. (This is the one I am most worried about)
coriander - 1 oz. fresh ground seed
basil/thai basil - 1 bunch

I'm thinking of using Wyeast 3787 or 3711 for this beer. My buddy wants something similar to a Belgian strong ale (3787) which isn't really right but I am thinking something like a strong farmhouse saison (3711) we will be shooting for a simple grist with 1 maybe 2 malts, light hopping with noble hops (probably hallertau) and somewhere around 2 lbs of natural palm sugar (possibly partially candi'd for color and complexity)

any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

 

[bobbrews]

Don't use spices, especially those spices, for a Thai Saison. Some of them are out of place for a Thai focus. Others are primarily used in curries. You don't want a curry beer, do you?

Do use fresh Cilantro/Coriander and Thai Basil. Coconut might be good; so would Ginger, Lemongrass, or Sorachi Ace hops. I would also skip the papaya and just use a small bit of Citra hops in the whirlpool for a small amount of tropicalness. Choose a high attenuating yeast that accentuates fruityness and ferment warm.

 

[mcwilcr]

Don't use spices, especially those spices, for a Thai Saison. Some of them are out of place for a Thai focus.

Personally, I would agree with you but this is sorta his deal, I'm just playing a technical roll here and handling the brewing while he 'helps'.

For the spices choses, think sweet yellow curry, all of the spices there are commonly found in that dish. I might try to get him to skip the allspice since it is such an dominant flavor and I already talked him out of using cumin. also forgot, black and white perppercorn probably ~1 tsp. total half&half.

Do use fresh Cilantro and Thai Basil. Coconut might be good; so would lemongrass or Sorachi Ace hops. I would also skip the papaya and just use a small bit of Citra hops in the whirlpool for a small amount of tropical notes. Choose a high attenuating yeast that accentuates fruityness and ferment warm.

I like the idea of fresh cilantro, I will bring that up! I've never used Citra before but I was under the impression it was a pretty in your face citrusy hop, I didn't realize it had a tropical fruit character.

I plan to keep the spices as muted as possible but in the end I am going to give him final control over the recipe.

 

[bobbrews]

Citra, despite the name, is not really that citrusy... it's tropical.

See above for my mention of having a Curry Beer, which I personally think would taste nasty. It's not impossible to brew, but it's very difficult to nail in terms of producing something tasty. Kind of like brewing a tomato beer, or a fish beer.

 

[kingogames]

Use Citra hops, maybe some centennial. Coriander seed, lime zest in the boil 5 min. Add lemongrass, and maybe cilantro (?) as a "dry hop". Infuse your priming sugar with 1 dried chili pepper. That's what I would do. You could add some tumeric. I wouldn't be worried about it. It's very mild as far as flavor, use it mainly for color. That spice blend in the OP will NOT be good IMO.

Go for a low ABV so as to not overpower the flavor.

You could secondary on to some dried coconut. Maybe 2 cups. But let it age a min of 60 days.

As I write this, I'm thinking I might want to try it!!!!

 

[kblankenship11]

I've messed with spices in a lot of my beers. I've found that less is always more. I never do more than 1/2tsp of anything now. Since this is a test batch and sounds like you have time, maybe you should split it in half with a few variations.

I'd do one where you take your finished spice concoction, but cut the quantities in half. Add those 15 mins left in the boil. Split it in two fermenters and let one go to completion without touching it. Secondary the other one with any additional spices you were thinking of. That second fermenter can be your "balls-out" flavor batch...

From my experience allspice is a very dominating flavor. Careful with that one. I'm not familiar with turmeric or coriander, but err on the side of caution. Saisons are very peppery/grassy/lemony. So I think basil, ginger, turmeric could work together. The other spices you could give a go in your second fermenter. Coconut sounds weird but a touch of papaya might be good in a saison. I have never used 3787 but I love the 3711 yeast.

 

[mcwilcr]

Use Citra hops, maybe some centennial. Coriander seed, lime zest in the boil 5 min. Add lemongrass, and maybe cilantro (?) as a "dry hop". Infuse your priming sugar with 1 dried chili pepper. That's what I would do. You could add some tumeric. I wouldn't be worried about it. It's very mild as far as flavor, use it mainly for color. That spice blend in the OP will NOT be good IMO.

Go for a low ABV so as to not overpower the flavor.

You could secondary on to some dried coconut. Maybe 2 cups. But let it age a min of 60 days.

As I write this, I'm thinking I might want to try it!!!!

The dried chili pepper is not a bad idea. the basil and cilantro both, if I use them both, I would use as "dry hop" type additions

 

[kingogames]

I'm just sensing bitterness using basil and cilantro. I might use one or the other or neither (I know I suggested the cilantro, but now that I think about it, it might not be such a good idea.)

 

[mcwilcr]

Citra, despite the name, is not really that citrusy... it's tropical.

See above for my mention of having a Curry Beer, which I personally think would taste nasty. It's not impossible to brew, but it's very difficult to nail in terms of producing something tasty. Kind of like brewing a tomato beer, or a fish beer.

I with you on not wanting a curry beer but without curry paste and fish sauce you will never end up with anything near a curry beer so I'm not too worried about going that extreme.

 

[mcwilcr]

I'm just sensing bitterness using basil and cilantro. I might use one or the other or neither (I know I suggested the cilantro, but now that I think about it, it might not be such a good idea.)

not really worried about bitterness, especially if I am not boiling them. Neither are really bitter and thai basil is a whole different animal anyway and is a little bit sweet and spicy.

 

[mcwilcr]

I've messed with spices in a lot of my beers. I've found that less is always more. I never do more than 1/2tsp of anything now. Since this is a test batch and sounds like you have time, maybe you should split it in half with a few variations.

I'd do one where you take your finished spice concoction, but cut the quantities in half. Add those 15 mins left in the boil. Split it in two fermenters and let one go to completion without touching it. Secondary the other one with any additional spices you were thinking of. That second fermenter can be your "balls-out" flavor batch...

From my experience allspice is a very dominating flavor. Careful with that one. I'm not familiar with turmeric or coriander, but err on the side of caution. Saisons are very peppery/grassy/lemony. So I think basil, ginger, turmeric could work together. The other spices you could give a go in your second fermenter. Coconut sounds weird but a touch of papaya might be good in a saison. I have never used 3787 but I love the 3711 yeast.

We have talked about doing a split and I think its a good idea primarily for the fruit additions.

I'm actually kind of opposit of your thinking on cutting the spices in half though (not that I want to double them or anything). This being a test batch, I feel like it would be easier to pick out what doesn't work if the flavors are a little bit more pronounced. I still need to look at some of the recipes I have made in the past using spices and see what quantities worked there and possibly cut some of them back. I have actually quite a few of those spices before with good results after some tweaking.

 

[kblankenship11]

We have talked about doing a split and I think its a good idea primarily for the fruit additions.

I'm actually kind of opposit of your thinking on cutting the spices in half though (not that I want to double them or anything). This being a test batch, I feel like it would be easier to pick out what doesn't work if the flavors are a little bit more pronounced. I still need to look at some of the recipes I have made in the past using spices and see what quantities worked there and possibly cut some of them back. I have actually quite a few of those spices before with good results after some tweaking.

That makes sense too. My thoughts on doing a version more subdued is based on experience of making recipes for other people. When they hear that you can make 'whatever they want', they usually go off the wall with flavors. I have to reign people in when they request certain things. I think if your buddy tasted the subdued one, maybe he would like that one more, but without a couple versions it would be hard to say.

 

[mcwilcr]

That makes sense too. My thoughts on doing a version more subdued is based on experience of making recipes for other people. When they hear that you can make 'whatever they want', they usually go off the wall with flavors. I have to reign people in when they request certain things. I think if your buddy tasted the subdued one, maybe he would like that one more, but without a couple versions it would be hard to say.

That makes sense. This is why I typically don't make recipes for someone else. This friend has been around enough of my beers and we have discussed recipes in the past as well but when I tell him 'we need to be careful or this beer is just going to be too busy' he mostly ignores the warning. You would be surprised at how much has been dialed down by me having him over to drink some bud light spice teas. I also keep trying to hint that if this is your wedding beer you might not want to make it something only you will like. For what it's worth, those spices in moderate quantities did go well together in the beer tea. I just found it hard to really nail down what the flavor contribution of turmeric was even when it was the only spice in the beer.

 

[kblankenship11]

Cool, let us know how it turns out!!