Spa Panel Keeps Tripping

Williams 728
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NWMushroom

NWMushroom

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Hello

So here is my original thread from 2013/2014:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=440903

The last photo in that thread was where I finished up and all worked great.

Fast forward a couple of years and I have moved house. I have the same dryer outlet, 3 prong, 30a circuit so I figured I could just plug and play as before.

However, I plugged in the spa panel and switched on my controller and the display flickered and the spa panel tripped.

Now, whenever I plug in the spa panel it immediately trips, even if I have nothing connected to the outlet from the spa panel.

I opened it up and all the connections still look good. Photos attached.

Can anyone provide some pointers here? It's a 3 wire input (white receptacle at bottom) going to a 4 wire output.





 
Do you have a volt meter? I'd first run tests to make sure that your incomming line is good and you don't have any bleeds coming over to the neutral line.
 
If your SPA panel was working fine at your old residence but now 'trips' whenever you turn it on at the new place, seems to me that the plug or source at the new place has something fishy going on..If you didn't do anything to the box, I would look at the plug/source as not supplying the correct current..
 
Yes on the volt meter..You can get a fairly good one for less then $30...

Dunno then..Still have this voice in my head that says that the outlet is screwy..weird..
 
I would first try removing the receptacle from the spa panel by disconnecting the load wires from the spa breaker and the "ground bar". This may at least eliminate the receptacle as the problem and you will then know your issue is with the spa panel or upstream of it.
 
jsprinceiii said:
It looks as if you have ground and neutral strapped together.
You need to treat this as 4 wire.. Ground should not be attached to neutral.
Click to expand...
He has a 3-wire in and 4-wire out. He doesn't have a ground and neutral. So uses this to bypass the ground limitation. Is a popular config around here and should work.
 
If it worked on a HHN outlet at a prior location, but trips on a HHN outlet in the new location, then either the new outlet has different wiring, or something changed in the spa panel. I would verify the outlet wiring first, then if it checks out look at the spa panel.
 
I'm no electrician, but Occam's razor suggests something screwy with the dryer outlet since that's the only thing that changed. THEORETICALLY something might have jiggled loose in the move, and it wouldn't hurt to triple-check the output wiring for your 4-wire recepticle, but I'm betting there's something screwy with the dryer output.
 
jeffmeh said:
If it worked on a HHN outlet at a prior location, but trips on a HHN outlet in the new location, then either the new outlet has different wiring, or something changed in the spa panel. I would verify the outlet wiring first, then if it checks out look at the spa panel.
Click to expand...

Newsman said:
I'm no electrician, but Occam's razor suggests something screwy with the dryer outlet since that's the only thing that changed. THEORETICALLY something might have jiggled loose in the move, and it wouldn't hurt to triple-check the output wiring for your 4-wire recepticle, but I'm betting there's something screwy with the dryer output.
Click to expand...

This makes sense but the spa breaker only monitors the load wires connected to it. If the dryer outlet breaker were tripping, different story. GFCI can do some strange things though. I'm curious to know what the problem is here.
 
OK, so I tried to get to the wiring behind the dryer outlet but the thing is in the wall so tight I couldn't really pull it out to take a good look. From what I could see, everything looked as though it was hooked up OK.

After putting the outlet back, I plugged the spa panel in and it didn't trip. However, there was no power getting out of the spa panel (I have one of those red 'beepy' wands that signals where there is power). Very odd.

So I then plugged the spa panel into the stove outlet. Again, no trip - but this time, the power wand indicated power was getting out of the spa panel. However, I plugged my controller into the spa panel and there was no sign of life. Interestingly, when I click the white test button on the spa panel breaker, nothing happens.

Do you think I have a busted GFI breaker here?
 
It is possible that it is bad. It may just not be fully reset. Make sure you firmly switch the breaker to full off and then firmly to full on. Maybe back and forth a few times. Then try the test button. I've been on a few service calls where that is all it took.
 
lschiavo said:
It is possible that it is bad. It may just not be fully reset. Make sure you firmly switch the breaker to full off and then firmly to full on. Maybe back and forth a few times. Then try the test button. I've been on a few service calls where that is all it took.
Click to expand...

I hadn't reset it properly - thanks for the reminder!

OK so as soon as I plug it into my dryer outlet, the spa panel trips. As soon as I plug it into my stove outlet, the spa panel trips. Again, this is without any load on the spa panel. Nothing is plugged into the outlet receptacle.

I think it's unlikely there is something wrong with both the dryer and the stove outlet.

What should I troubleshoot next?!

Thanks for all the help I've been getting on this thread. Man, I just wanna brew!!!
 
OK, so I removed the wires coming out of the breaker and was left with this:



I plug it into the dryer outlet and it immediately trips.

I've also checked my 'input cable' wiring of the 3 prong dryer plug to the 4 prong receptacle going into the spa panel and all looked OK.




Any other ideas?!
 
Weird. With nothing connected to the load of the breaker, there should be nothing to trip it. Maybe try disconnecting the jumper from the neutral to the ground bar. Then double scrutinize all connections. One stray strand is all it takes.
 
lschiavo said:
Weird. With nothing connected to the load of the breaker, there should be nothing to trip it. Maybe try disconnecting the jumper from the neutral to the ground bar. Then double scrutinize all connections. One stray strand is all it takes.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify, that would mean removing this wire as circled, correct?

 
I have 3 wire to three wire.I remember having to move the white wire from the way it was setup out of the box.In the pic the green wire goes out,the grey wire is the dryer plug.White,grey,green all on the same ground with no jumper.Works as it should. Not an electrician.

20160524_083800_resized.jpg
 
OK so I got a new spa panel. Wired it up and plugged it into the dryer outlet without a load. It didn't trip. Great news (or so I thought).

So, I filled the kettle with water and connected my controller to the spa panel outlet. When I switched on the control panel switch for the pump, nothing happened... until a few seconds later when the spa panel tripped along with the breaker for the entire house.

I opened up the controller and don't see any loose connections in there, but I am guessing that something is tripping the spa panel breaker between the spa panel and my controller.

Now I am nervous around the whole thing and am out of ideas.
 
Sounds like a dead short. What size breaker tripped in the main panel?

Maybe your element is shorted? A volt/ohm meter would be helpful for you. Maybe pics of your control panel and element wiring?
 
Well the main breaker definitely tripped, that's a 100a breaker. If I remember correctly, I think the dryer fuse tripped too - that's 30a.

I'll order a volt/ohm meter. Can you recommend one? Would this one do the trick? What do I do with it?

I've attached pictures of my control panel. The heating element is the plug on the bottom right, the pump is the plug on the bottom left. The power comes in from the cable on the left side and the cable on the right side is the temperature probe.

Screen Shot 2016-05-26 at 10.14.47 AM.jpg


Screen Shot 2016-05-26 at 10.14.53 AM.jpg


Screen Shot 2016-05-26 at 10.14.58 AM.jpg


Screen Shot 2016-05-26 at 10.15.03 AM.jpg


Screen Shot 2016-05-26 at 10.15.08 AM.png
 
Last edited by a moderator:
That meter will be fine. I usually use a sub $10 analog but the digital can be nice for resistance measurement. For troubleshooting, voltage and continuity are the most valuable. Continuity means zero resistance or dead short. I'm guessing you have that issue somewhere. Not sure if your element was trying to fire when you switched on your control panel but I would isolate the element first and make sure it's not shorted. Then with the control panel unplugged from everything, test for shorts from line to neutral/ground in the panel. That's a start anyway. I'll look the pictures over better when I get to a bigger screen.
 
I doubt this has anything to do with the issue, because the color of the wire wouldn't effect it's conductivity. However, it appears and is kind of scary that whoever wired the controller used white colored wire for the hot leads (and no black tape as an indicator either).

That aside, my 2 cents (take for what it's worth which is only 2 cents LOL) on troubleshooting would be start removing items (furthest from the breaker, which would be the element) from the mix until I the breaker doesn't trip, or I'm left with just the 30amp dryer plug and no wiring connected.
 
Yeah well I'm back to my old issue now of the spa panel tripping whenever I connect it to the dryer outlet, except now the main breaker for the house trips in addition to the spa panel. This is without any load on the spa panel.
 
jgoldsworthy said:
I doubt this has anything to do with the issue, because the color of the wire wouldn't effect it's conductivity. However, it appears and is kind of scary that whoever wired the controller used white colored wire for the hot leads (and no black tape as an indicator either).

That aside, my 2 cents (take for what it's worth which is only 2 cents LOL) on troubleshooting would be start removing items (furthest from the breaker, which would be the element) from the mix until I the breaker doesn't trip, or I'm left with just the 30amp dryer plug and no wiring connected.
Click to expand...

That's it. Process of elimination.
 
lschiavo said:
Whatever the issue is may be frying the gfci breakers.
Click to expand...

If the cable feeding the spa panel took the 100A current required to trip the house breaker, then I'd also inspect the plug wiring on the feeder cable to the spa panel, and check the conductor to conductor resistance of the feeder cable. It may have seen enough current to damage it. Then move on to checking the breaker and wiring connections in the spa panel. Anything that saw 100A of current may be damaged.

I assume that the dryer still works ok without tripping anything, so that the damage isn't in the house wiring or the dryer outlet.
 
I'm no electrician but have added breakers in the panel...What about just running a few feet of wire from the main to the spa panel for testing.If nothing trips you've narrowed it down to the dryer line
 
Right. Don't give up. Troubleshooting is often a process of elimination. Think the circuit through and disconnect anything that could cause the problem. Reconnect things until you find the culprit.

If you pay shipping, I'll look at it for you. You won't get the satisfaction of fixing it yourself that way though;)
 
Ha. The thing is I've disconnected all the load on the spa panel but it still trips. I'm at the point where I'm suspecting it's something to do with the outlet or power system in the house (remember I didn't change anything before moving and in my last house all worked perfectly).

At this point, I get scared just thinking of plugging the spa panel in since the trips are so aggressive (now taking out the main house breaker).
 

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