Sour Stout! Tried and true recipes

[Sillybilly]

Anybody have any recipes for a sour stout/porter/black ale that they have brewed and liked? Looking for something that will go well with additions of coffee, vanilla, and oak later on. American Sour Beers has a recipe that looks promising, wondering if anyone else has any additional input. Planning to inoculate with stepped-up dregs from Jolly Pumpkin and Wicked Weed, and probably add various dregs along the way.

Thanks!

 

[radwizard]

Do you like Tart of Darkness? I would use that as a grain bill.

 

[Sillybilly]

I have never had that, but it sounds pretty close to want I want to do. Biggest thing, I dont want too much roast initially so I will be able to add the coffee later which the amount will depend on how roasty it already is.

Have you brewed that before or something similar?

 

[radwizard]

I have not brewed a sour stout. I really liked tart of darkness, and that is the route i would take.

 

[brewery_fixer]

Have you ever had Clutch by New Belgium? Killer sour stout-ish brew

 

[Sillybilly]

As of now, my preliminary recipe is:

75% Pale
10% Flaked oats
5% Special B
4% Crystal 60
4% Chocolate (maybe pale)
2% Roasted Barley

OG around 1.060

 

[twistedjosh]

If it were me, I would probably shy away from the roasted barley and do something like some midnight wheat, or dehusked Carafa instead

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

As of now, my preliminary recipe is:

75% Pale
10% Flaked oats
5% Special B
4% Crystal 60
4% Chocolate (maybe pale)
2% Roasted Barley

OG around 1.060

This is a recipe I did recently. I like it a lot. Picked up a ToD recently and am going to do a side by side. I wasn’t trying for a clone but similar style. Will definitely brew again.

The “lambic #1” was collected from a lambic style batch I did. It’s base was Wyeast 3278 with dregs of:

 

[Sillybilly]

That looks like it would be pretty tastey, do you have any tasting notes? nothing "formal" just an idea of what it tastes like.

If it were me, I would probably shy away from the roasted barley and do something like some midnight wheat, or dehusked Carafa instead

I know what you're saying, but I want to get deeper roast flavor in there. I figure at 2% that should give enough without being overwhelming... a "less of something more" idea behind that. Carafa III crossed my mind as well. My hope is to add the coffee for more of a robust caramel, chocolate, coffee-y(?) flavor to compliment roast flavor of the malts.

Just kind of shooting ideas around.. I am sure I will just end up deciding something and going for it, but first want to make sure I check my p's and cross my t's.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

That looks like it would be pretty tastey, do you have any tasting notes? nothing "formal" just an idea of what it tastes like.

I threw my ToD in the fridge last night. Will do a tasting of both tonight and actually take notes and report back.

 

[Sillybilly]

Looking forward to hearing about it!

 

[twistedjosh]

^^Same here, curious to hear the similarities

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Looking forward to hearing about it!

Soooo... My wife and I went cross country skiing tonight and got back too late to open up the ToD but we did do a tasting of the Too Sour By Half. We should be able to taste them side by side this Thursday. But rather than deliver nothing, here is half of what was promised.

Nose: you can tell it’s a sour, very similar smell to a lambic. Bit of barnyard funk.

Taste: starts off distinctly tart with a bit of blackberry, leads into more of the malt flavors towards the middle and I think the chocolate malt comes through with a mild roast. It finishes with a bit of smoke and leather that lingers. I haven’t taken the pH and don’t have a meter but I’d rate the sourness medium to medium high.

Excited to try the tart of darkness again. I haven’t had it since I was in San Diego for work about 3 years ago.

 

[505-Brewer]

Google search for tart of darkness and madrugada obscura recipes for 2 solid approaches. The latter is more roast forward - like 12% roast w a touch of black while the ToD is more chocolate forward. I agree err on the side of caution and add coffee etc near the end. Last time I had ToD i was like “All tart, no darkness”. Once it warmed up though it came through better. Be warned JP dregs will make it very sour. No need to mash high and add some hops to tame them. Good luck. Sounds tasty!

 

[radwizard]

I'm pretty there was a ToD kit available that had 12% roast... IMO it should have some roast in there, if you want to do a Sour Stout. I can't really comment on the amount to use, but I think starting out on the low side is a safe bet. The 2% looks good to me.

Sour Stouts are awesome. I would love to get one going soon as well. Just waiting for some of my beers to finish at this point.
Good luck!!

 

[505-Brewer]

Could be. Im only aware of the More beer ToD clone with grain bill:

Grain:
10 lbs American Pale
1 lb Crystal 60L
1 lb Flaked Oats
8 oz Black Roasted
6 oz Chocolate

Not 12% and not even roast barley.

 

[Sillybilly]

Taste: starts off distinctly tart with a bit of blackberry, leads into more of the malt flavors towards the middle and I think the chocolate malt comes through with a mild roast. It finishes with a bit of smoke and leather that lingers. I haven’t taken the pH and don’t have a meter but I’d rate the sourness medium to medium high.

Excited to try the tart of darkness again. I haven’t had it since I was in San Diego for work about 3 years ago.

What was the body/mouthfeel like on this?

Google search for tart of darkness and madrugada obscura recipes for 2 solid approaches. The latter is more roast forward - like 12% roast w a touch of black while the ToD is more chocolate forward. I agree err on the side of caution and add coffee etc near the end. Last time I had ToD i was like “All tart, no darkness”. Once it warmed up though it came through better. Be warned JP dregs will make it very sour. No need to mash high and add some hops to tame them. Good luck. Sounds tasty!

I didn't see a Madrugada recipe. I actually went to buy this one awhile back but grab Bam Noire thinking that was its name. Yeah, I heard JP's Pedio strain(s) is pretty gnarly.

 

[Sillybilly]

I'm pretty there was a ToD kit available that had 12% roast... IMO it should have some roast in there, if you want to do a Sour Stout. I can't really comment on the amount to use, but I think starting out on the low side is a safe bet. The 2% looks good to me.

Sour Stouts are awesome. I would love to get one going soon as well. Just waiting for some of my beers to finish at this point.
Good luck!!

Agreed about the roast in a sour stout. I am sure I can bump my roasted malts a bit, but I don't think I want to go to 12%, like you said, better to play it safe. I can always make adjustments down the road, possibly blending (first time for everything).

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Ok so got the side by side done tonight. Here is the pour of the ToD. It had a brief head that dissipated rapidly.

Nose: not as much funk as mine. You can almost smell the lactic.
Taste: First off, top notch beer really like it. Quite sour and tart. It took me a while to actually get past the tartness to search out the other flavors that are there. I can’t claim to have a talented palate but here goes. I definitely get plum a bit in the nose as well as after the first hit of the tartness. I could be missing it but not really much in the way of roast or coffee. It could be there, but the tartness overpowered it? On the website it claims plum, notes of oak, vanilla, and coffee/roast. I didn’t pick up oak really. If I thought hard enough I could maybe pick up vanilla. No smokiness at the end. I would say light body on the mouthfeel. It was a 2016 ToD. (Saved the dregs for later use)

For mine, it was much less tart by comparison. I would say it was medium body. Mouthfeel closer to an oatmeal stout but still a little thinner. Still stand by the smoky finish. I’m guessing that’s coming from the Brett, but there are a lot of different cultures in it.

I’d agree that keeping the roast somewhat subdued is a good idea. I don’t know why but the combo of noticeably roasty and sour sounds like a recipe for acrid flavors. Could be wrong though!

Best of luck on whatever you brew! And be sure to check in in 8-16 months on how it turns out!

 

[505-Brewer]

Nice write-up. Racking my 10 gals of ToD along w 5 gals of some pre-existing sour (TBD) to a 15 gal bbl this Sat. I think I have a ToD bottle to taste and add the dregs in too. Depending on what sour i blend it might not need it ( basically blending in the bbl) but its a solera so all good.

 

[Sillybilly]

Nice write-up. Racking my 10 gals of ToD along w 5 gals of some pre-existing sour (TBD) to a 15 gal bbl this Sat. I think I have a ToD bottle to taste and add the dregs in too. Depending on what sour i blend it might not need it ( basically blending in the bbl) but its a solera so all good.

Did you brew the recipe you mentioned above? How'd it come out?

@Cool_Hand_Luke I will report back, I am preparing my grain bill now and probably brew this weekend, I was hoping to wait another week but starter is ready to go so why not?

Do you think ToD was actually that much more sour or just lacked depth compared to yours?

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Do you think ToD was actually that much more sour or just lacked depth compared to yours?

I don't know if it lacked depth, more that the tartness overpowered anything else that might have been there. Kinda back to @505-Brewer 's comment "All Tart no Darkness". I still really enjoyed it though. Very bright.

Nice write-up. Racking my 10 gals of ToD along w 5 gals of some pre-existing sour (TBD) to a 15 gal bbl this Sat. I think I have a ToD bottle to taste and add the dregs in too. Depending on what sour i blend it might not need it ( basically blending in the bbl) but its a solera so all good.

That sounds awesome. Let us know if you take a quality control sample while transferring.

 

[505-Brewer]

Basically. Made a few changes to the dark malts based on what I had in stock. However, fermented clean w wlp530 and will blend w a sour beer and age in the bbl. haven’t tasted yet but my version seemed very “chocolatey”. Used Perla Negra as the main dark malt.

ToD. You really need to serve it warm enough to taste any nuiances (as noted above). Tartness is the donmnant flavor -especially straight out of the fridge.

 

[505-Brewer]

As of now, my preliminary recipe is:

75% Pale
10% Flaked oats
5% Special B
4% Crystal 60
4% Chocolate (maybe pale)
2% Roasted Barley

OG around 1.060

This looks great. Brew it!

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

ToD. You really need to serve it warm enough to taste any nuiances (as noted above). Tartness is the donmnant flavor -especially straight out of the fridge.

Yeah first sip straight out of the fridge you definitely don't get much else. I let warm to 50F for both beers when doing the side by side. You do get a bit more but still dominant with tartness.

 

[505-Brewer]

Yeah first sip straight out of the fridge you definitely don't get much else. I let warm to 50F for both beers when doing the side by side. You do get a bit more but still dominant with tartness.

Agreed!

 

[redllama]

I just started cracking into the sour stout that I brewed last year. I took my typical stout recipe (which is light on roasted barley) fermented with Irish Ale then added Wyeast Brett Lambicus. Let that age for 6 months or so before adding a 32oz jug of RW Knudsen Just Tart Cherry Juice. Let that go for another month and then bottled. Any roasty flavors have moved to the background and there is a nice subtle cherry throughout. All in all I was pretty happy with my first attempt at a sour stout.

 

[505-Brewer]

Racked 10 gals of our ToD inspired beer plus 5 gals of a cherry bruin (pH 3.2) I had on hand into the whiskey bbl last night. Lets hope the flavors jive together nicely.

 

[505-Brewer]

I just started cracking into the sour stout that I brewed last year. I took my typical stout recipe (which is light on roasted barley) fermented with Irish Ale then added Wyeast Brett Lambicus. Let that age for 6 months or so before adding a 32oz jug of RW Knudsen Just Tart Cherry Juice. Let that go for another month and then bottled. Any roasty flavors have moved to the background and there is a nice subtle cherry throughout. All in all I was pretty happy with my first attempt at a sour stout.

No bacteria just tartness from brett and cherry concentrate? Sounds tasty.

 

[Sillybilly]

Brewed this on Saturday, went with:

10.5# 2-row
1.5# Flaked oats
12oz Special B
8oz Pale Chocolate
8oz 60L
6oz Roasted Barley

OG was 1.056 as I wanted a little more volume to to fill both 5.5gal and 1gal fermentor. Pitched starter with various bugs then S-04 after 2 days. The 1-gal fermenter I pitched only S-04 as a "control". The grist smelled amazing when mashed, would make a really good porter/stout recipe on its on. Now its time to let the bugs do their thing.

 

[redllama]

No bacteria just tartness from brett and cherry concentrate? Sounds tasty.

Correct. Next time I brew it I will probably add Gigayeast Tart Cherry Brett or Cherry Sour Funk (although my IBUs will keep the Lacto from souriing) just to add some more complexity. Potentially could also put some Pedio into the mix to get real sourness

 

[TTodd]

Hoping for some really basic beginners advice on producing a sour like ToD. My experience in Sours is limmited to kettle-sours so no real experience in doing a real sour.

I see many recipes for the grain bill but my question is with the yeast. Can I just simply pitch the Roeselare yeast right into the carboy with no other yeast? If I do that - does it really take 18 months for it to fully finish?

I see references to people adding dregs from other bottles. I'm assuming that this would always be in addition to the main "souring" yeast, correct? Is it as simple as pouring directly from the bottle right into the fermentor?

Sorry for the very basic questions. Looking at doing this soon and just want to make sure I'm not completely off-track.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Can I just simply pitch the Roeselare yeast right into the carboy with no other yeast? If I do that - does it really take 18 months for it to fully finish?

You absolutely can. It should reach final gravity in maybe 3-9 months. Flavor and sourness continue to develop over time, which is why it can be aged up to 18 months or longer depending on taste. It's "finished" when you like the taste enough to call it done.

...dregs from other bottles. I'm assuming that this would always be in addition to the main "souring" yeast, correct? Is it as simple as pouring directly from the bottle right into the fermentor?

Yep, pretty much!
https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/06/harvesting-sour-beer-bottle-dregs.html?m=1

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html?m=1

 

[onebedroombrewer]

Anybody have any recipes for a sour stout/porter/black ale that they have brewed and liked? Looking for something that will go well with additions of coffee, vanilla, and oak later on. American Sour Beers has a recipe that looks promising, wondering if anyone else has any additional input. Planning to inoculate with stepped-up dregs from Jolly Pumpkin and Wicked Weed, and probably add various dregs along the way.

Thanks!

 

[onebedroombrewer]

I made something like this accidentally, I was aiming for a cherry ripe stout ( a chocolate bar in Australia) but too much cherry resulted in a stout with a deep cherry sour finish, happy to post recipe if your interested..