Sour Mash Berliner Question

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JonGrafto

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Ok folks.
Yesterday morning I mashed in 10 gallons of a Berliner Weiss, cooled to 120° and then threw a cup of 2-row on top.
I then purged with CO2, covered with Saran wrap and purged again and covered in my Igloo cooler.

I have been checking temps and they are not too bad but dropping. I checked this morning and it was at 105°.

I was going to heat it back up by placing boiling water into the mash and here is where my question is.

When adding boiling water, do I stir up the entire mash?
(Won't that introduce oxygen?)

I want to sour for at least 48-72 hours (dictated by taste).
So far it smells good, well... It doesn't smell bad. Just like plain yogurt.

Input please... Thanks.
 
It will sour just fine as it cools, keeping oxygen out is much more important than maintaining the heat. I know another brewer who makes great berliners that doesn't bother keeping it warm at all, he just lets it naturally cool from 120F and sours it for a week.
 
So I checked it last night. Smells ok... not too disturbing considering the circumstances. But I noticed that all of the grains bloated up and rose to the top. It was all still covered in Saran Wrap but I still thought this was weird.

I may try and taste it tonight. At that point it will be 54-58 hours in.

What should I expect?
Do I plug my nose and dive right in? Ha ha.
 
So I checked it last night. Smells ok... not too disturbing considering the circumstances. But I noticed that all of the grains bloated up and rose to the top. It was all still covered in Saran Wrap but I still thought this was weird.

I may try and taste it tonight. At that point it will be 54-58 hours in.

What should I expect?
Do I plug my nose and dive right in? Ha ha.

That's normal, it's what mine does when the lacto is thriving. I just used a sanitized spoon and tried to get mostly liquid, can't avoid the grain.
The sourness should be immediately apparent, it should taste pretty good for the most part. I let the sample cool down before tasting it.
 
That's normal, it's what mine does when the lacto is thriving. I just used a sanitized spoon and tried to get mostly liquid, can't avoid the grain.
The sourness should be immediately apparent, it should taste pretty good for the most part. I let the sample cool down before tasting it.

Could I drain it from the bottom with my ball valve? or should I be taking the sample from the top most portion?

I was thinking to just open the ball valve and drain an ounce or so for taste but didn't know if the souring goes from the top down or if it even matters.
 
Could I drain it from the bottom with my ball valve? or should I be taking the sample from the top most portion?

I was thinking to just open the ball valve and drain an ounce or so for taste but didn't know if the souring goes from the top down or if it even matters.
I don't think it matters but that's just my gut. I'd imagine the lactic acid would disperse evenly in the liquid, probably will be fine to taste it like that. It's what I would do if I had a spigot on my pot.
 
I don't think it matters but that's just my gut. I'd imagine the lactic acid would disperse evenly in the liquid, probably will be fine to taste it like that. It's what I would do if I had a spigot on my pot.

Thanks for the input. I have done many other beers in the past, but this is my first venture in any type of sour or sour mash for that matter.

Hopefully it turns out well and becomes a consistently brewed recipe.
 
Ok folks.
Yesterday morning I mashed in 10 gallons of a Berliner Weiss, cooled to 120° and then threw a cup of 2-row on top.
I then purged with CO2, covered with Saran wrap and purged again and covered in my Igloo cooler.

I have been checking temps and they are not too bad but dropping. I checked this morning and it was at 105°.

I was going to heat it back up by placing boiling water into the mash and here is where my question is.

When adding boiling water, do I stir up the entire mash?
(Won't that introduce oxygen?)

I want to sour for at least 48-72 hours (dictated by taste).
So far it smells good, well... It doesn't smell bad. Just like plain yogurt.

Input please... Thanks.

There is a lot of mis-information out there about sour mashing, including the impact of oxygen.

When sour mashing you are actually doing two things: 1) you're creating conditions under which lactobacilli will rapidly sour the wort, and 2) you're trying to create conditions which impair the activity of other microorganisms such as enterobacteria and acetobacter.

The major factor determining the activity of lactobacilli is the temperature - lacto works best in the range of 37-42C (~98-108F), but can produce lactic acid less efficiently at much lower temperatures (as cool as 15C/60F). Lactobacillus is a microareophile, meaning it needs small amounts of oxygen, but they also don't care if lots of oxygen is present. There is anecdotal evidence that "extra" oxygen may actually lead lacto to produce a nicer flavour profile that is more complex, which has been my experience as well.

The reason we like to aim for the higher end of lacto's temperature range is that those temperatures inhibit (note: inhibit, not kill) several bacteria that can produce some very unpleasant off flavours and aromas. Enterobacteria like Clostridium butyricum will grow in a too-cool mash (at or below 37C/98F), and produce a lot of buteric acid which can really ruin a beer. Other entero's like Escherichia coli can also grow, generate all kinds of nasty off-flavours/aroma (vomit, faeces), and can be potentially pathogenic if you're doing a no-boil. All of those entero's don't give a rats behind if there is oxygen present or not - they grow fine with or without it.

The only reason people use an oxygen barrier is for Aceotobacter, which produces acetic acid (vinegar) in the presence of oxygen. In small amounts acetic acid can be quite nice in a sour, but it doesn't take much before it starts becoming unpleasant. The good news is that Acetobacter is inhibited above ~35C (95F), so if you keep your mash in the lacto-range you don't need to worry about an oxygen barrier.

I've been experimenting with a number of sour-mashing methods over the years. I've done away with oxygen barriers in my mashes - they're only needed if you cannot keep the temperature up - and, IMO, you end up with a nicer sour profile if the mash has access to oxygen. I've tried letting it cool near the end of the mash to allow some Aceotobacter activity - if done right that can add a nice depth to the beer, but its easy to over-do it (8-12 hours at/below 35C at the end of the sour mash seems to work). More recently I've done a few with pure and mixed cultures, instead of inoculating with uncrushed grain. To date they've ranged from unsatisfactory to horrendous; I've got a post on my blog about one of the worst ones, but a lot of my pure culture attempts have led to "thin" beers that lack the depth of flavour you get from a "true" sour mash.

Bryan
 
Damn, had a feeling it was dangerous to taste the sour mash before the boil. My first two went from 120 to around 80, probably held 80 for 3 days. Must have been lucky cuz they came out great.

They hold steady for me now around 90F after cooling from 120 over 2-3 days. Your mention of E Coli is fairly disturbing....
But yeah, everyone I've talked to with experience in making good berliners has said letting oxygen in will lead to vomit aromas and said it was the most important part. Interesting to know this isn't the case at all.

Maybe the exposure led to more Clostridium Butyricum getting in the mash and taking over.
 
I taste my sour mashes all the time - but I also keep them above 37C (98F). The only time I had a vomit aroma was the one time I forgot about the mash, and let the temp drop to ~33C (91F). Oxygen has nothing to do with the formation of those aromas though; those are from the enterics and they work fine with or without O2.

B
 
Tasted it this morning... Pulled from the ball valve. Nice and tart. I haven't had any disgusting smells as of yet.
The smell of the sample almost reminded me of tomato soup... (weird!)

I pitched uncrushed grain at 125° almost 3 days ago and haven't done anything to try to keep the temperature up. It has been in an Igloo cooler in my garden shed and the outside temperature has been around 85° the past 2 days.

I will drain, sparge and boil tonight.

Rapidly cool using a plate chiller and pitch S-04 onto 5 gallons and US-05 onto the other 5 gallons...

*** Fingers crossed ***
So far so good!!!!
 
So I need to improve my heating arrangement. I wonder if a simple cardboard box lined with foil would help. I just have my heat lamp very close to the side of my kettle. How do you keep yours warm?
 
Me?? I haven't needed to...
Being so warm outside the past few days and being in a garden shed has created a nice warm area.
My Igloo cooler maybe loses 0.5° per hour...

In the future, I would just add boiling water to get the temperature back up to where it needs to be.
 
I've done it two ways.

"Historically" (as in, upto ~5 days ago) I made a thick mash in a cooler-style mash tun, dropped in a temperature probe to monitor, and added boiling water when the temp gets low. I would usually wrap the cooler in a few sleeping bags to help maintain temps. The thick mash ensures that I don't over-dilute the wort with the hot water additions, which were generally about 10% of the starting mash volume, added every 24-36 hours.

I just finished a warm-chamber for brewing saisons/etc. My first use of it was a sour-mash Berliner over the weekend. It held the temperature perfectly (it is controlled by a STC1000) - in this case I mashed in an enamelled pot, taped the temperature probe to the side of the pot, and let it go for 4 days. The beer is fermenting now, but the soured wort tasted fantastic.

Bryan
 
I've done it two ways.

"Historically" (as in, upto ~5 days ago) I made a thick mash in a cooler-style mash tun, dropped in a temperature probe to monitor, and added boiling water when the temp gets low. I would usually wrap the cooler in a few sleeping bags to help maintain temps. The thick mash ensures that I don't over-dilute the wort with the hot water additions, which were generally about 10% of the starting mash volume, added every 24-36 hours.

I just finished a warm-chamber for brewing saisons/etc. My first use of it was a sour-mash Berliner over the weekend. It held the temperature perfectly (it is controlled by a STC1000) - in this case I mashed in an enamelled pot, taped the temperature probe to the side of the pot, and let it go for 4 days. The beer is fermenting now, but the soured wort tasted fantastic.

Bryan

Warthaug...

After adding boiling water, did you stir your mash? Or did you just let the mash temp even out? I would have thought that stirring would introduce oxygen and create some bad smells.
 
I always stirred, if I had to guess, for 30 seconds or so to equal out the temp. As I mentioned in my earlier post, if your temperatures are above 39C/100F introducing oxygen should not result in off-flavours as the bacteria that produce those off flavours are inhibited at those temps. Its only if you're letting your mash get below that point that you need to worry about oxygen leading to acetic acid - but the really bad off flavours (buteric acid, vomit, etc) are produced with or without oxygen. In fact, one of the strongest producers of buteric acid in sour mashes (Clostridium butyricum) does better without oxygen than it does with oxygen!

Although I never tried it, I'd suspect you'd get more off-flavours by not stirring the water in, as you'd end up with cold spots in the mash tun at off-flavour friendly temps.

Bryan
 
Well damn, pretty much the opposite of what I told Jon. Sorry about the bad info dude, it's what I was taught. This thread basically turned my sour mash world upside down. I'd rather not keep adding boiling water though so I'm going to see if I can whip up a way to get my heat lamp to maintain a higher temp.
 
That's OK!! That's is why we ask and learn...
This is my first go at this too...

As soon as I get home tonight, I am draining and boiling and then pitching.

Think there will be any noticeable difference in the S-04 versus the US-05 batches?
 
That's OK!! That's is why we ask and learn...
This is my first go at this too...

As soon as I get home tonight, I am draining and boiling and then pitching.

Think there will be any noticeable difference in the S-04 versus the US-05 batches?

Well I did one with WB-06, and one with US-05, and they came out the same. I can only attest to their similarity before the secondary treatments though, the first one had no treatment and the second got raspberries. They tasted extremely similar after primary though.
 
Well damn, pretty much the opposite of what I told Jon. Sorry about the bad info dude, it's what I was taught. This thread basically turned my sour mash world upside down. I'd rather not keep adding boiling water though so I'm going to see if I can whip up a way to get my heat lamp to maintain a higher temp.
Like I said, there is a lot of mis-information out there. But don't forget - if you cannot keep the temperature above 37C/98F an oxygen barrier will help prevent the formation of acetic acid. Its not that it's useless, its just that its importance has been overstated.

Bryan
 
I'm doing my first sour mash this weekend and need to get something straight. Do you guys generally sour the whole mash or just a percentage of the grain bill? Also, after mashing I'll be heading to Vermont for a week, I'm keeping the mash in my attic for warmth. Does anyone see any problem in this method?
 
If you enjoy doing sour mashes, I'd recommend investing in a thermal wire of decent wattage that you can tape to the outside of a dedicated cheap pot with aluminum duct tape. I have a ~940 watt wire that I run off a cheap PID/SSR combo. Works great. Set it and forget it.
 
I'm doing my first sour mash this weekend and need to get something straight. Do you guys generally sour the whole mash or just a percentage of the grain bill? Also, after mashing I'll be heading to Vermont for a week, I'm keeping the mash in my attic for warmth. Does anyone see any problem in this method?
Usually we do the whole mash, but if leaving it for a whole week you may want to consider souring only 50% of it. I'd be cautious though - unless you can guarantee the temps will stay above 37C/98F (by a minimum of+2C/+4F) you run the risk of allowing a lot of the off-flavour producing bugs to thrive, which will convert your sour into a septic-smelling mess....

Bryan
 
If you enjoy doing sour mashes, I'd recommend investing in a thermal wire of decent wattage that you can tape to the outside of a dedicated cheap pot with aluminum duct tape. I have a ~940 watt wire that I run off a cheap PID/SSR combo. Works great. Set it and forget it.

I'm very interested in the details of this. Namely, what's PID/SSR? How dangerous is this to leave on for 5 days? And does it run up you power bill like crazy?
 
It safe enough to leave on, as long as you keep it in a place that won't be bumped and flammable stuff won't fall on it.

Here's the wire I used. They have others.
http://www.omega.com/pptst/STH_SST_SWH.html

PID and SSR? Well that's a lot to get into here, but the PID is the temp controller and the SSR is a solid state relay which allows the PID to control high power devices. You can do just as well with a decently priced off the shelf temp controller:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8&products_id=334

You can (I do) use the rig as mash tun with fine temp control... just add a recirculating pump.
 
It safe enough to leave on, as long as you keep it in a place that won't be bumped and flammable stuff won't fall on it.

Here's the wire I used. They have others.
http://www.omega.com/pptst/STH_SST_SWH.html

PID and SSR? Well that's a lot to get into here, but the PID is the temp controller and the SSR is a solid state relay which allows the PID to control high power devices. You can do just as well with a decently priced off the shelf temp controller:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8&products_id=334

You can (I do) use the rig as mash tun with fine temp control... just add a recirculating pump.

Awesome, thanks for the info. Damn that's pretty expensive stuff though, eh Christmas bonus isn't too far off.
 
I split my 10 gallon batch and pitched US-05 on 5 gallons and S-04 on the other 5.

The US-05 had a large krausen but the S-04 had little to no krausen.
It has only been going for 4 days but I would have thought that there would have been a decent layer on both.

I guess I will wait a few more days and check the gravity to see where they both sit.

Has anyone else had a no krausen beer with S-04?
 
Finally got around to kegging these...
The US-05 version tasted nice. Kegged that one up.
The S-04 version was ok but needed something more. I racked that onto some Montmorency Cherry juice.

Dropped it in the kegerator last night to get cold. I will hit them both with 30psi for the next few days and then drop down to about 20 psi (per carb charts and volume per style) and see how they turned out.
 
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