S'mores stout all grain help

[malev0lent1]

Hey everyone! I've looked around and have seem some threads, but nothing of finality on a S'mores stout.

I'm fairly new to All Grain. and know that diving in to a beer that needs to nail 3 "additional" flavors (Graham Cracker, Milk Chocolate and Toasted Marsh-mellow) might be biting off more than I can chew, but damn it I want to brew one of these for my next camping trip!

While an exact grain bill and recipe would be awesome, I'd be happy with some discussion around the approaches for this beer. Specifically:

- What kind of grains would you use to achieve more of a S'mores/Milk Chocolate stout style?

- How much graham cracker to use and when (I've read that using them as part of the mash would be best bet, what do you think?)

- What kind of chocolate would be best to get that Hershey Bar flavor? How much of it, when to add?

- How much toasted marshmellow would you add and when ? (is Fluff ok?)

- What kind of yeast would you use?

- Extracts/oils for some of the items above... yay or nay?

Look forward to any help you all can provide!

 

[insanim8er]

Not that this helps, but I got a friend who is a professional brewer. His brewery had a S'mores stout. It was pretty tasty. They served it with a toasted marshmallow on the rim. But to be honest, it didn't tast like s'mores. I didn't get any graham cracker. But it tasted like a nice smooth stout. Was excellent really.

http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/29619/87375/?ba=ccrida

I have no idea how it was made, didn't bother asking since they even kept their house yeast a secret, so ya...

I have mashed with garham crackers before. The wort definetly tasted like graham, but it blew out during the fermentation.

You're probably better off using nibs for chocolate and some kind of extract for graham then serving with a marshmallow on the rim. I wouldn't actually use marshmallow.

If I were to attempt this, I'd base it off of a milk stout recipe. The left hand milk stout recipe is awesome. I added vanilla that I made from beans and vodka. It made the coffee notes more like a really nice smooth chocolate. So you could do something like that then add a garham extract... Just be really light on it.

Maybe think about adding some "camp fire" to it with some smoked malts? Honey malt could help with the "graham" aspect too.

 

[malev0lent1]

Thanks for the reply! I found that beer in my research too, but haven't seen much with it as far as what was used etc...

I've seen mixed reviews of mashing with graham, how much did you use when you brewed with it?

I thought about using extracts, but only as a last resort as it's easy to get that artificial oily kind of taste using them. At worst, I want to use them for no more than 1 aspect of the recipe.

Do you think the cocoa nibs will give me the creamy chocolate taste like a Hershey bar? From what I read cocoa nibs can give a roasted flavor and impart some bitterness. Neither is bad for beer per se, but I'm really looking for a chocolate bar taste.

I thought about using vanilla bean to "fake" the marshmallow, but not sure if it would really get that toasted marshmallow flavor I'd need. If nothing else would work, this may be the way to go though!

I'm generally not a fan of super roasted or smokey beers, so I don't think I'd be looking to add that flavor to the beer. Maybe once I get a decent recipe down I could experiment with it,

Thanks again for your reply and insight!

 

[StaticEmbrace]

Everything I've read has pointed at flavorings to be the only way to get a true "chocolatey" flavor as nibs have been known to make it go super bitter and give a dark chocolate flavor more than anything else. So, I'd go the flavoring route for that note and then use some lactose and vanilla bean along with maybe a little bit of oat for texture and bodyThat should give you a good cream flavor for the marshmallow as well as making the chocolate a little more on the milk side of the spectrum. That's the standard in milk chocolate stout at least to my understanding. Then for the cracker not I say why not try your hand at mashing with graham. It seems like this is already going to be pretty experimental for you so I vote go for it. That along with some honey malt should work out. Good luck! Can't wait to see how it works out for you.

 

[dudius]

I like the honey malt idea and I'd suggest using Hershey's syrup in secondary, from what I have seen other people write about it's a great way to get that milk chocolate taste. I've made a chocolate milk stout once with cocoa powder and lactose but the recipe required so much of both in the boil that I would have preferred to use Hershey's syrup. I think the syrup might be able to go in the boil but don't quote me on that. Also, people have said to use the canned stuff versus the squirt bottle stuff. Idk if it's different or just more economic.

 

[ja09]

Sounds like some experiments are in order! I'd be interested to see if adding some Graham cracker to the secondary would produce any desirable flavors. A little "dry grahaming" anyone? Probably would only want to try on a gallon or less... could turn bad quick!

 

[malev0lent1]

Everything I've read has pointed at flavorings to be the only way to get a true "chocolatey" flavor as nibs have been known to make it go super bitter and give a dark chocolate flavor more than anything else. So, I'd go the flavoring route for that note and then use some lactose and vanilla bean along with maybe a little bit of oat for texture and bodyThat should give you a good cream flavor for the marshmallow as well as making the chocolate a little more on the milk side of the spectrum. That's the standard in milk chocolate stout at least to my understanding. Then for the cracker not I say why not try your hand at mashing with graham. It seems like this is already going to be pretty experimental for you so I vote go for it. That along with some honey malt should work out. Good luck! Can't wait to see how it works out for you.

I think you are dead on though with the lactose to counter some of the bitter of using nibs. I imagine some choc. malt too could help get some of the choc. flavor!

I think I will for sure mash with some graham!

 

[malev0lent1]

I like the honey malt idea and I'd suggest using Hershey's syrup in secondary, from what I have seen other people write about it's a great way to get that milk chocolate taste. I've made a chocolate milk stout once with cocoa powder and lactose but the recipe required so much of both in the boil that I would have preferred to use Hershey's syrup. I think the syrup might be able to go in the boil but don't quote me on that. Also, people have said to use the canned stuff versus the squirt bottle stuff. Idk if it's different or just more economic.

I thought about choc. syrup, but from what I gather it has a bunch of other ingredients (fructose corn syrup etc...) that might do more harm than good. Maybe just a little bit though can add just enough to make up for the bittering of the nibs.

 

[dudius]

Fructose is fermentable sugar, it won't mess up the beer

 

[Larzean]

Don't use graham cracker extract, it was horrible!

 

[dudius]

Don't use graham cracker extract, it was horrible!

Everyone I've talked to who had used a flavor extract rather than a flavor syrup had a bad result. Not sure if it's the strength of the extracts or what but I've already decided not to use the stuff.

 

[malev0lent1]

Fructose is fermentable sugar, it won't mess up the beer

Ahhh, makes sense. But I guess the yeast is going to eat that sugar and make more alcohol? I guess putting in secondary would be better for that reason?

 

[dudius]

Ahhh, makes sense. But I guess the yeast is going to eat that sugar and make more alcohol? I guess putting in secondary would be better for that reason?

Right, the goal of secondary would be to keep some of that Hershey's chocolate taste.

 

[malev0lent1]

Right, the goal of secondary would be to keep some of that Hershey's chocolate taste.

Excellent!

I think this will give me as close to a S'mores chocolate taste as possible. Thanks for your replies!

 

[Bearclaw215]

Id check out the Pumking clone thread it has some good info in it on getting the graham cracker flavor if your willing to dig. You could always serve it with crushed graham crackers on the rim like a margarita, olive garden has a chocolate martini they do that with and it's yummy.
For the marshmallow id go with a vanilla bean, just not too heavy keep it light. Vanilla really is the main flavor of marshmallows and is nothing like the root its named after.
The chocolate you could go with chocolate malt, nibs or powdered chocolate in the boil but get quality stuff.
If it was me i'd start with a good oatmeal stout that might give you some of that light toast with deliciously smooth.

Im always interested in these kinds of brews so def post how you go about it and tasting notes.

 

[malev0lent1]

Id check out the Pumking clone thread it has some good info in it on getting the graham cracker flavor if your willing to dig. You could always serve it with crushed graham crackers on the rim like a margarita, olive garden has a chocolate martini they do that with and it's yummy.
For the marshmallow id go with a vanilla bean, just not too heavy keep it light. Vanilla really is the main flavor of marshmallows and is nothing like the root its named after.
The chocolate you could go with chocolate malt, nibs or powdered chocolate in the boil but get quality stuff.
If it was me i'd start with a good oatmeal stout that might give you some of that light toast with deliciously smooth.

Im always interested in these kinds of brews so def post how you go about it and tasting notes.

Thanks for the insight!

I think pumking uses graham cracker extract if I'm not mistaken. If I can get a good chocolate flavor and good marshmallow flavor naturally, I might dabble with using some extract in addition to some actual graham cracker itself. Maybe just enough to help boost the natural flavor.

I'm in recipe mode right now, so probably won't try this for at least another few weeks if then. I will be sure to post a follow up once I do!

Thanks again for your reply!

 

[insanim8er]

I think pumking uses graham cracker extract

I won't get into it, but this is wrong... You're getting this bogus info based off the many ... MANY failed attempts to clone the beer.

Label laws require them to print on the label, "natural flavors." Or "artificial flavors." They use spices, but no extracts. This was a huge debate in the pumpking thread.

All brews with known flavors, like rouge hazelnut or shocktop honey crisp apple..etc. All have, "made with .... Flavors." On the label

If you look at the pumpkin label and compare it to the warlock label, you'll see.

I've gone through that entire thread. And I'm telling you graham cracker will blow out during fermentation. I mashed with it before when I made a pumpkin pie graff. It turned out absolutely amazing, but the garham cracker flavor in the mash was not there in the final product. Some complain the graham extracts leaving a metallic taste. It was not recommended, but I never experimented with it. So I can't say.

I personally wouldn't use extract in any of my beers, but I also wouldn't expect to get a true representation of a s'mores either. I'd just mimic elements of each flavor and aim to make an awesome stout with a gimmick name.

 

[Bearclaw215]

Ya there's lot of arguing in the pumking thread, but a good read and some good stuff in there imo. Didn't one guy in there claim to use vanilla wafers with some degree of success? Stuff like that helps me think outside the box and I'm sure there's other weird stuff I've forgotten also.
I'm another vote to steer away from extracts easy way to ruin a beer.

 

[insanim8er]

Ya there's lot of arguing in the pumking thread, but a good read and some good stuff in there imo. Didn't one guy in there claim to use vanilla wafers with some degree of success? Stuff like that helps me think outside the box and I'm sure there's other weird stuff I've forgotten also.
I'm another vote to steer away from extracts easy way to ruin a beer.

I've done vanilla wafers too... Same thing. Fermentation blows out the flavors because it's too subtle. I used an entire box in a small mash. The flavor is very much there in the mash, but the end product really doesn't gain anything but a higher price point on the ingredients.

 

[Bearclaw215]

Well thats not very cool. You ever try making a spice tea from the graham crackers? I'd imagine it'd be a mess but could possibly skirt around the fermentation eating the flavor up.

 

[kcmobrewer]

I've mashed with graham crackers. Worked very well. Just need a lot of them. For a stout of decent gravity is use 3+ boxes.

For marshmallow definitely don't add fluff. I haven't done it but I've read horror stories about it clumping up in the beer. I'd just use lactose and vanilla.

For all my chocolate beers I use both cacao power and nibs in the secondary. As well as a healthy dose of chocolate malt in the mash. Turns out nicely.


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[insanim8er]

I've mashed with graham crackers. Worked very well. Just need a lot of them. For a stout of decent gravity is use 3+ boxes.

Ya... I think any style would require a ton of boxes. I was reading the ingredients of graham.

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/honey-graham-crackers/

Just use the ingredients in the beer. I'd use brown sugar, honey (and honey malt), and vanilla.

 

[malev0lent1]

I've mashed with graham crackers. Worked very well. Just need a lot of them. For a stout of decent gravity is use 3+ boxes.

For marshmallow definitely don't add fluff. I haven't done it but I've read horror stories about it clumping up in the beer. I'd just use lactose and vanilla.

For all my chocolate beers I use both cacao power and nibs in the secondary. As well as a healthy dose of chocolate malt in the mash. Turns out nicely.


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What amounts of powder and nibs did you use? What would you consider a "healthy" dose of choc. malt?

 

[kcmobrewer]

I use 1oz per gallon of both. Turns out really well in my opinion. Noticeably chocolatey but not overpowering


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[joyceman]

Maybe an addition of victory or biscuit along with carmelized brown sugar or molasses and a few oz of honey malt?

 

[malev0lent1]

Maybe an addition of victory or biscuit along with carmelized brown sugar or molasses and a few oz of honey malt?

I had a few people in another forum suggest the Victory, Biscuit and Honey Malt as well. Sounds like they need to make it in for sure! Now to just figure out what amounts lol!

 

[malev0lent1]

I use 1oz per gallon of both. Turns out really well in my opinion. Noticeably chocolatey but not overpowering


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Awesome, thanks!

When you used that much were you also using choc. malt in the mash?

 

[kcmobrewer]

Yup. Not a lot though. Maybe a 1/2 lb in a normal grav beer


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[malev0lent1]

Yup. Not a lot though. Maybe a 1/2 lb in a normal grav beer


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Awesome, thanks! I had started to put a recipe together in Beer Smith and this is what I had the Choc malt at! Hoping in a few more weeks I'll have the time to give this one a go!

 

[ja09]

Drinking this at the moment and thought of this thread. Picking up a ton of vanilla and more and more chocolate as it warms, but not much if any graham. Great example though, but was hoping for more graham.

 

[malev0lent1]

Drinking this at the moment and thought of this thread. Picking up a ton of vanilla and more and more chocolate as it warms, but not much if any graham. Great example though, but was hoping for more graham.

Nice! Thanks for sharing!

 

[malev0lent1]

Thanks for all the help everyone! So I've plugged a recipe in to beersmith and will be brewing this on Thursday. Here's what I've settled on for my first attempt:

2 lbs 11.2 oz Graham Cracker (3-14.4 oz boxes) (3.0 SRM) 17.2 %
1 lbs Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) 6.4 %
7 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) 44.6 %
1 lbs Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) 6.4 %
12.0 oz Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) 4.8 %
8.0 oz Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) 3.2 %
8.0 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) 3.2 %
8.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) 3.2 %
4.0 oz Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) 1.6 %
4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) 1.6 %
4.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) 1.6 %
0.33 oz Magnum [12.10 %] - Boil 60.0 min 11.7 IBUs
0.75 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min 4.0 IBUs
4.00 oz Cocoa Powder (Boil 10.0 mins)
1 lbs Milk Sugar (Lactose) (Boil 10.0 mins) (0.0 SRM) 6.4 %
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05)
4.00 oz Cocoa Nibs (Secondary 14.0 days)
2.00 Vanilla Beans (Secondary 14.0 days)

I'm going to mash at 153 for 75 mins.

It's a little over OG according to BeerSmith for a Swet Stout, and a little underhopped but I'm thinking some of the bitterness from the chocolate will make up for the hops, and if it comes out a little sweet it prob won't bother me lol.

I'll def. keep everyone updated on this thread!

 

[Bearclaw215]

What's your planned og/fg? Looks like a lot's going on in there and I'm hoping it's yummy. Can't wait for your results!

 

[HankyPanky]

Good Luck, sounds awesome. I am new to all grain and I love the idea of experimenting with flavors. I cant wait to see how it turns out.

 

[malev0lent1]

What's your planned og/fg? Looks like a lot's going on in there and I'm hoping it's yummy. Can't wait for your results!

Woops sorry! If I'm reading BS correct, the Est. OG is 1.077 and the Est. FG is 1.026.

Not sure how accurate it is though since the Graham cracker I'm not sure if it's truly accurate on what it adds to the mash. I read on a Beer Smith forum post that the gravity for it was 1.035 so that's what I used.

For what it's worth, when I remove the Graham it says OG = 1.064 and FG 1.022.

 

[malev0lent1]

Good Luck, sounds awesome. I am new to all grain and I love the idea of experimenting with flavors. I cant wait to see how it turns out.

Thanks! I usually get excited for brew day, but I'm SUPER excited for this one. Thursday can't come soon enough!

 

[malev0lent1]

Welp, brewed the beer today! One change to the recipe is that the Victoryh malt ended up being 24 oz instead of 12. I made a mistake when ordering my grains. This changed the OG to 1.081.

Came in at 1.071, .010 lower than BeerSmith calculated but I blame it on the Graham cracker calculation. Beer was sweet with a hint of graham. Going to rack to secondary in 10 days and add the 2 vanilla beans and Cocoa nibs! Can't wait for this to be done already.

Appreciate all the help and suggestions! I'm going to try and attach a few pics. I also filmed the process for my youtube beer show (The Beer Chasers) for a future episode!

 

[malev0lent1]

Transferred to secondary on Sunday and stole a taste... The beer is nice and sweet with a touch of graham/honey. The chocolate is tasting slightly under what I would like, but I still have the Cocoa nib addition to get more choco flavor. If I was a betting man I'd say the graham/honey flavor comes from the honey malt and other malts and not so much from the graham cracker itself.

There is a strong hop flavor though that I caught form both the initial pre-ferment taste and this recent taste. You can def. taste the alcohol, almost a little too much. Hoping the Cocoa nib and vanilla addition will help with that, as well as some condition time in the bottles for it all to come together.

Final Grav was 1.022, so right around 6.5%.

 

[rocketsan]

Did a video of this ever make it to Youtube? How did the beer end up?

 

[te-wa]

off the top of my head, on the fly:

7lbs marris otter
1lb victory
8oz honey malt
8oz chocolate malt
4oz pale chocolate malt
3oz lactose
mash at 151
primary 3 weeks
rack over, add extract of 1 vanilla bean and 4oz cocoa nibs in 4oz vodka.

the trick: take 2 cups of the wort and 1 cup light corn syrup (karo) and caramelize it in a pot at near boiling until thickened.

best carbed at 9 psi and aged two months.