small high gravity batch

[HItransplant]

hey all,

recently I opened bottle of 09 deschutes abyss. I did a bottle harvest from the last tablespoon or so in the bottle (after sitting at 55 for a year), and pitched it into 1L of ~1040 wort. wouldnt ya know.. it propped.

Sooo, I put together a 1.5 gallon version of one of the abyss clone recipes since i really dont want to pitch this "I have no idea what the hell I have in here" strain of yeast into a $75 dollar batch.... call me old fashioned.

anyway, my question:

With such a small batch, and such a high gravity, Im thinking about doing my mash with enough water that I will get all my pre-boil volume without having to sparge (borrowed the idea from the double mashing technique with some info I learned from kai's wiki about mashing efficiency... which suggests that a thin mash is more efficient than a thick one-- built in sparge?). That way, when I lauter, i will just get the nice juicy high gravity wort... right?

ideas? thoughts?

thanks

 

[Mysticmead]

put in all the water you plan on using.. include grain absorption and boil off and you'll be fine.. you'd only be a grain bag away from BIAB

 

[fcwegnm0b]

Mash thin an do a mash out infusion to raise the mash to 170F or so... then the first runnings should be enough to hit your pre-boil volume... you could do a parti-gyle.. or freeze the second runnings for starters.

 

[poley]

There's something about having a mash that's too thin, but I suspect you're unlikely considering the gravity you're going for. I think when you go over 1.5qt/lb the enzymes dissolved in the water are less efficient in breaking down your starches. Best way to make sure you've mashed well is to do an iodine test.

Can anyone confirm?

 

[iijakii]

There's something about having a mash that's too thin, but I suspect you're unlikely considering the gravity you're going for. I think when you go over 1.5qt/lb the enzymes dissolved in the water are less efficient in breaking down your starches. Best way to make sure you've mashed well is to do an iodine test.

Can anyone confirm?

Ive never heard of this. Most BIABs are at 2+ qt/lb and perfectly fine.

 

[poley]

I suspect you'll be fine as well, like I said, if you have any concerns, just do an iodine test.

Here we go, from "How to Brew"

The grist/water ratio is another factor influencing the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion, but ultimately leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars.

So, give it plenty of time to convert and you'll be fine.

 

[HItransplant]

Mash thin an do a mash out infusion to raise the mash to 170F or so... then the first runnings should be enough to hit your pre-boil volume... you could do a parti-gyle.. or freeze the second runnings for starters.

not sure if parti-gyle is worth the time.. for a one gallon batch. Now, freezing the second runnings for starter material wouldnt be a bad idea though. What should I freeze it in--- soda bottle?

There's something about having a mash that's too thin, but I suspect you're unlikely considering the gravity you're going for. I think when you go over 1.5qt/lb the enzymes dissolved in the water are less efficient in breaking down your starches. Best way to make sure you've mashed well is to do an iodine test.

Can anyone confirm?

There is a ton of awesome information on Kaiser's Wiki, click HERE

heres the quote taken from the wiki.. "...the brewhouse efficiency for the thinner mash showed a strong dependency on the temperature and was always better than the efficiency of the thick mash. That leads to the conclusion that thinner mashes perform better and allow for better extraction of the grain. Briggs also reports that thinner mashes can convert more starch but that most of the conversion potential is reached at a water to grist ratio of 2.5 l/kg [Briggs, 2004]"



He found in his research that the efficiency actually increased with a thinner mash... almost seems at odds with what palmer says in his book-- the quote you posted just up one. ..... Interesting. I was thinking that if a thinner mash was more efficient, I might be able to kill 2 birds with one mash so to speak. Again, like mashing with a built in sparge.

thanks for all the replies. Has anyone out there tried something like this?

 

[fcwegnm0b]

Yea PET bottle works. Some people can the wort... there's several threads on it. Just bring it to a boil before you use it. I've though about boiling it down to 1.080 or so and diluting it before making a starter... smaller bottles would save some space in the freezer.

I haven't tried what you're doing, but like Mystic said the mash we talked about is pretty much a BIAB deal... which is great.

Any chance we can get a look at the clone recipe you found? I had never seen this beer and wouldn't mind a small batch myself.

 

[HItransplant]

Yea PET bottle works. Some people can the wort... there's several threads on it. Just bring it to a boil before you use it. I've though about boiling it down to 1.080 or so and diluting it before making a starter... smaller bottles would save some space in the freezer..

ah, canning.. of course (jars rock!!)
question: why boil? if its sterile going in, sterile comming out... right?

I haven't tried what you're doing, but like Mystic said the mash we talked about is pretty much a BIAB deal... which is great. .

yeah, I do all my mashes BIAB, just vary the size of the Bag... ill use my steeping bag for this little batch.

Any chance we can get a look at the clone recipe you found? I had never seen this beer and wouldn't mind a small batch myself.

sure (thanks Saccharomyces).. I just scaled down in beertools pro to 1.5 gal:

Plugged this into BeerSmith with typical Imperial Stout ratios of 80% base/toasted, 10% roasted, 10% crystal. I treated molasses as subbing for half the crystal, and I recommend you don't use more than about 5% molasses, as that stuff is strong!

% - Grain/Sugar - (approx. wt for 5 gal)
70% 2-row (14 lb)
5% Wheat Malt (1 lb)
5% Victory Malt (1 lb)
5% Roasted Barley (1 lb)
2.5% Patent Malt (.5 lb)
2.5% Black Malt (.5 lb)
2.5% Crystal 60 (.5 lb)
2.5% Crystal 120 (.5 lb)
5% Molasses (1 lb), boiled 10 minutes
?? Licorice, added at flameout

Single infusion Mash 154*F 60 minutes

To get percentages in software plug each % grain in pounds, set your expected efficiency, and then have your program scale down to 1.100 OG to get the proper weights.

They claim French oak and Bourbon barrels so I would do a 50/50 split in secondary for a week -

2 oz American Oak, Bourbon soaked
2 oz French Oak, Bourbon soaked

I agree with Nugget as bittering. Columbus gives a citrusy, piney, and slightly floral flavor and aroma used a late kettle and/or whirlpool equivalent additions, similar to Chinook, so I would add the Columbus later in the boil and use more to get the IBUs. Northern Brewer wouldn't be wasted anywhere in the brewery but a hopback I'll bet.

I'm going with:

1 oz Nugget 90
.5 oz Columbus 30
.5 oz Columbus 15
1 oz Northern Brewer 2

From experience I'll bet a big honkin' starter of Wyeast 1028 would tear through this in about 6 days and take it down to 1.018 or so if mashed at 154*F, that would be my choice of yeast for this brew. I use it at 65*F and it works like a champ every time. I would use a 2-3L starter on stir plate or a 4-6L starter fed pure O2 if not using a stir plate depending on the age of the smack pack. An aeration stone is a must for brewing a beer over 1.070 IMO, it's $50 well spent if you plan on brewing lots of big beers like I do.

 

[fcwegnm0b]

I believe sterility is like a theoretical goal... we can come close, but never perfect. There's lots of discussion on this point too as is pertains to saved wort for starters.. check out some of the threads... like everything else man, do what works for you.

Thanks for the recipe my quick search didn't turn that up... what OG are you shooting for? Around 1.100 or so?

Edit: Ah 1.100 missed it the first time.

 

[HItransplant]

I believe sterility is like a theoretical goal... we can come close, but never perfect. There's lots of discussion on this point too as is pertains to saved wort for starters.. check out some of the threads... like everything else man, do what works for you.

Thanks for the recipe my quick search didn't turn that up... what OG are you shooting for? Around 1.100 or so?

Edit: Ah 1.100 missed it the first time.

I guess it cant hurt to boil it, so ill probably boil... better safe than sorry.

yes, deschutes says OG is 1100, but I cant seem to get it perfect on my 1.5 gallon batch.. it comes out to 1108.. close enough for government work. Its hard when your grain values are all under a pound (im actually going to use my gram scale for all the grain except for the pale).

if you are going for authenticity,.. do a search for "thoughts on abyss" and give it a read. Deschutes does a lot with this beer, including using belgian yeast for part of the fermentation. Im excited to give it a go... please let me know how the recipe turns out if you decide.. I still have yet to hear from someone who has actually brewed this recipe.

cheers.

 

[HItransplant]

Mash thin an do a mash out infusion to raise the mash to 170F or so... then the first runnings should be enough to hit your pre-boil volume... you could do a parti-gyle.. or freeze the second runnings for starters.

do i need to do anything differently with my recipe for this technique?

anyone else have suggestions on my plan?

 

[BOBTHEukBREWER]

I use very thin mashes, my last brew was 6 UK gallons to 10 UK lbs of grain, ie 2.4 quarts to a pound. I always do iodine tests and have never had a positive starch, I even through some cornflour on the saucer to test the iodine and got blue-black instantly.

 

[HItransplant]

Let me try this question a different way:

If I rock a really thin mash----> decoc (gallon or so) to bring mash temp to 168 (and reach my preboil volume minus grain absorb. loss), effectively combining mash and a mini batch sparge... what changes do I need to make to the recipe?

can I just drop my eff. a little, maybe to 55/60%?

suggestions?

thoughts?

 

[fcwegnm0b]

Here's an example of the mash I was talking about... it was a brown ale.

11 lbs. of grain total.
Dough in with 11 quarts (boiled and cooled) water at 185F (I don't preheat my tun, instead I just heat this strike water 10-12F hotter)
Temp. stabilized at 156F and held for 60 minutes.
Infuse 4.6 quarts boiling water (and stir thoroughly) to raise temp to 169F and hold for 10 minutes.

Total volume of the mash at this point is 5 gallons... all that my tun will hold.

Collect 2.9 gallons of wort at 1.073

I boiled that and topped up to 4 gallons for my 1.048 beer... but if you boil those runnings down to 2 gallons the SG should be 1.105.. and trub losses.. hop absorption, yeast sediment, absorption by the wood... you will hopefully get you a good gallon of final product.

Yea it's not nearly as efficient as a double batch or fly sparge... My brewhouse efficiency was 50% at best... I believe it's an Aussie BIAB deal.. I found the formulas for water volumes and temps here:
http://***********/stories/techniques/article/indices/9-all-grain-brewing/1407-skip-the-sparge

I had to read it twice before it sank in... but the formulas were spot on for our intents and purposes. They dough in and hit 104F before raising to a sacc. rest... I skipped that part; right to 156F.

Hope that cleared things up... Cheers!


Oh, changes to the recipe... just scale your grain bill to 11 lbs. of grain total.