Skipping steps of scaling up?

[bottlerocket]

Hey guys, I'm still rather new to homebrewing but would like to scale up from my current setup. I have been doing small batches in my tiny little Mr Beer setup and it has served me well for all-grain as well as extract. I've done 4 recipes to date (2 extract, 2 AG) and I'm thrilled with the results. But the beer seems to go quick and I'd like to move up to a 5 or 10 gal setup.

My question is more to the point of why scale up in small steps? My ideal situation is to have a 3 tier setup with Keggles. I have easy access to cheap (read: free) 1/2 bbl kegs and ideally would use these for the whole setup, requiring only my time and money to build the stand, get some burners, and the other misc equipment to go with it (heat exchanger, pump, thermometers, etc). I've read several places people swearing by advice that directs people to start with more gradual baby steps between a small setup like mine and a 3 tier. Is there a reason to this or is it just so people don't get burned out? I know I want to get to this point eventually so wouldn't I be better off just not wasting the money with all of the steps in between and going to the bigger setup?

 

[oneandahalfshepherds]

My advice to you is this: try to think of your ultimate end goal. Is it 10 gallon? Is it a RIMS? If you can id identify your ultimate goal early you will avoid buying equipment that will not be a part of your end-goal system. So for example, buying a nice SS fermenter would be wasteful if you really want to eventually brew 10G batches. If you are asking if you should go directly to a keggle setup, I would totally do it....if that's part of your end goal system

 

[bajaedition]

there is a very good reason
learning each step at a time

so you are doing extracts? have you done any extracts with steeping grains?

any full wort boils?

learned about wort chilling?

there really is a lot to learn about brewing, and when guys go one step at a time they absorb it. If you just go out and go for it and your first beer is a flop, will you have the experience to know what went wrong?

MY advice to you is to get that keg set up for full wort boils and do that for a few beers, and then go out and join a local club, find someone with a all grain system and ask to brew with him a few times.
Be the brew *****, learn all about each step and why it is done as it is.
scrub all the equipment and learn sanitation
decide if it is all worth it to you before investing in it. after all a lot of guys are happy to extract brew at the full wart boil.

 

[chickypad]

Since it sounds like you've done a couple AG batches already you know some about the basics. Whether you step up to 5g or 10g all grain it's all the same principles with the need to do full boils, chilling, etc. I agree with shepherds, if you already know you're going to go bigger might as well not waste money on temporary equipment. I went straight from partial mash brews to a 10 gal all grain scuplture, I see no reason to step up if you know what you want.

 

[Doctor_M]

If you know you've got the brewing bug and you have the money I say go for it! Heck I bought my brew magic before I even brewed my first batch of beer and dove straight into all grain. Yes my first few brews weren't all that great and I am still learning but by having the right equipment I feel I have learned at a much more accelerated pace then if I had gone through extract, then pm, and finally full blown all grain. Sure at first I brewed some crap beer but I didn't have anything to blame it on but myself.

Long story short I say go all grain and whatever setup you decide to go with do it right and do it right the first time. It'll help you learn quicker in the long run.

 

[Bobby_M]

I went up to a 10 gallon system pretty quickly and only brewed maybe 3 ten gallon batches before I realized that I don't drink enough to justify it. I'd put off tapping the second keg because I wanted more variety rather than more volume. I like brewing a little more than I like drinking. Unless you always have people over drinking your beer, you'll probably find the same thing. A true 6 gallon batch that yields 5 full gallons of packaged beer is a lot more than what you have now.

 

[Braufessor]

I think it is smart to buy/go to quality rather than buying mediocre/intermediate stuff several times on your way to what you should have just done in the first place.

There will be a learning curve making the jump to bigger equipment for sure. I would be sure to start with "small/simple" beers like british bitter, blonde, pale ale, brown ale etc. to ease into it. Keeps the process simple, plus you will not have 50-$75 invested in a batch if you screw it up. But, I don't know that you "have to" learn on 2 gallons, then 5 .... etc. on your way to 10 (or whatever).

All that said - I think the real question here is not weather to jump into all-grain, or buy quality equipment.... the real question ultimately is do you want to brew 10 gallons at a time. I almost went to 10 gallons on a few occasions.... but never quite pulled the trigger. It always seemed like the "next step." In hindsight, I am really glad I did not. I like brewing. I like brewing a variety of styles. I think I would have used a 10 gallon system to brew 5-6 gallon batches 80-90% of the time. On the rare occasion that I want 10 gallons of the same beer - I just brew 2 batches.

That is the thing I would be sure of before going to the "next step."

 

[Doctor_M]

Is there really that much price difference between being setup for 5 gallon batches or 10? As long as whatever you use to read temperatures in the mash tun can read a 5 gallon batch just as easily as a 10 gallon batch it shouldn't matter if he has the capability to brew bigger. Now if your talking about it because of potential dead space in the mash tun it sounds like he's gonna go with a keggle which can be direct fired and thus making it a moot point. Igloo cooler route your right he should worry about it.

I'd rather have the capability and barely utilize it vs. not having it.

Edited to add: after thinking about it I can see your guys point as there is the problem of storage of the beer after finished... I keg and go through beer very fast between my personal consumption and lots of thirsty friends but I do see your guys point. However you can still just brew 5 gallons in a 10 gallon setup. You can't brew 10 gallons (at the same time) with a 5 gallon setup.

I still say go big!

 

[acidrain]

I endorse going straight to your end goal, however...
I would utilize the keggles for BK and HLT, but not the MT. For that I would go with a cooler based insulated kettle.
I slowly went from one keggle, to two, then added a stand alone electric HLT. The only thing I'm not really happy with is the MT because it's so hard to hold temps.
I've spent a ton of money trying to make it work, but in the end, it all comes down to heat loss.
I would also skip the three-tier, and go with a single tier two-place stand with a pump, and make the HLT electric and placed high for gravity feed.
Just my $.02

 

[Braufessor]

The main issue with brewing 5 gallon batches on 10 gallon equipment is (in general) it is a fairly significant issue maintaining mash temps very consistently (unless you have RIMS or something.)

I brew some ocassional 3-4 gallon batches to ferment in cornies and I have problems using my 10 gallon kettles very efficiently. I think the same problem comes in trying to make 5 gallon batches in 15 gallon kegs. And, for me personally, I LIKE brewing 50 batches of beer in a year. I just would not brew 10 gallons of the same thing that often. If the OP feels strongly about 10 gallons - I agree - go big, do it right the first time around.

 

[Doctor_M]

I endorse going straight to your end goal, however...
I would utilize the keggles for BK and HLT, but not the MT. For that I would go with a cooler based insulated kettle.
I slowly went from one keggle, to two, then added a stand alone electric HLT. The only thing I'm not really happy with is the MT because it's so hard to hold temps.
I've spent a ton of money trying to make it work, but in the end, it all comes down to heat loss.
I would also skip the three-tier, and go with a single tier two-place stand with a pump, and make the HLT electric and placed high for gravity feed.
Just my $.02

The main issue with brewing 5 gallon batches on 10 gallon equipment is (in general) it is a fairly significant issue maintaining mash temps very consistently (unless you have RIMS or something.)

I brew some ocassional 3-4 gallon batches to ferment in cornies and I have problems using my 10 gallon kettles very efficiently. I think the same problem comes in trying to make 5 gallon batches in 15 gallon kegs. And, for me personally, I LIKE brewing 50 batches of beer in a year. I just would not brew 10 gallons of the same thing that often. If the OP feels strongly about 10 gallons - I agree - go big, do it right the first time around.

Very valid points... I <3 my rims :rockin:. I think the OP should have lots to think about!

 

[mattd2]

I endorse going straight to your end goal, however...
I would utilize the keggles for BK and HLT, but not the MT. For that I would go with a cooler based insulated kettle.
I slowly went from one keggle, to two, then added a stand alone electric HLT. The only thing I'm not really happy with is the MT because it's so hard to hold temps.
I've spent a ton of money trying to make it work, but in the end, it all comes down to heat loss.
I would also skip the three-tier, and go with a single tier two-place stand with a pump, and make the HLT electric and placed high for gravity feed.
Just my $.02

Since the kegs are free adding a little insulation to the MLT would be cheaper than a cooler (and more durable).
As most on here have said - the diffrence between a 5 gallon / 10 gallon keggle setup is basically nothing. You would need to, possibly, have a bigger burner/element and a means to "throttle" it back for smaller batches (and you would normally need that anyway independant of batch size).
I have done it sort of like you want to do, and as the second post suggested - Identify your end goal and work towards that. I have had to do it piecemeal due to limited money but if you know what you want there is no reason to get equipment that you know you won't use in a years time

 

[Dynachrome]

Is there really that much price difference between being setup for 5 gallon batches or 10? As long as whatever you use to read temperatures in the mash tun can read a 5 gallon batch just as easily as a 10 gallon batch it shouldn't matter if he has the capability to brew bigger. Now if your talking about it because of potential dead space in the mash tun it sounds like he's gonna go with a keggle which can be direct fired and thus making it a moot point. Igloo cooler route your right he should worry about it.

I'd rather have the capability and barely utilize it vs. not having it.

Edited to add: after thinking about it I can see your guys point as there is the problem of storage of the beer after finished... I keg and go through beer very fast between my personal consumption and lots of thirsty friends but I do see your guys point. However you can still just brew 5 gallons in a 10 gallon setup. You can't brew 10 gallons (at the same time) with a 5 gallon setup.

I still say go big!

If you have free half barrels - just go big.

I've used my 74 quart Coleman Extreme twice this month for 20 gallon batches. If you want to do something small sometime it would be cheap to pick up a 5 gallon Stainless steel pot or whatever....

 

[chickypad]

You can always keep your current set up with the 2.5 AG batches - I do that size BIAB batches with my old kettle. I find it's a perfect size for trying out new recipes, and for big or specialty beers where a case/2.5g keg is plenty. Then the ten gallon batches are nice for the tried and true recipes and house favorites, I do have a lot of beer drinking friends though.

 

[bottlerocket]

Thanks for all the input guys. I will probably do a 50/50 mix of 10gal and not-10gal brews (some 5, some less). HERMS is definitely something that crossed my mind. Just have to figure out how to incorporate that into a 3 tier.

 

[Doctor_M]

Thanks for all the input guys. I will probably do a 50/50 mix of 10gal and not-10gal brews (some 5, some less). HERMS is definitely something that crossed my mind. Just have to figure out how to incorporate that into a 3 tier.

Your gonna need a pump in order to do a herms... at which point I would go two tier with the lower tier being the boil kettle.

 

[YeasternStar]

If you go with a pump and a decent controller/sensor you will be able to keep your mash temperature pretty close to set-point. Just be sure to have an adjustment method (hand valve) in your mash recirculation line so you can properly throttle your wort flow. Proper wort flow will lessen the chances of a stuck mash and will also help you with temperature control if your mash tun is not insulated. Slow flow and an uninsulated tun can add up to significant stratification.

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

I went up to a 10 gallon system pretty quickly and only brewed maybe 3 ten gallon batches before I realized that I don't drink enough to justify it. I'd put off tapping the second keg because I wanted more variety rather than more volume. I like brewing a little more than I like drinking. Unless you always have people over drinking your beer, you'll probably find the same thing. A true 6 gallon batch that yields 5 full gallons of packaged beer is a lot more than what you have now.

Bobby is on the money with this posting. Ten gallons is a lot of beer. Anyone who likes to brew is eventually going to end up in a situation where he/she is drinking far too much or not brewing often enough to sustain interest in the hobby. I brewed 5-gallon batches for a decade before taking a ten and a half year hiatus from the hobby due to the fact that I found myself dumping perfectly good batches in order to be able to brew another batch.

 

[mattd2]

Bobby is on the money with this posting. Ten gallons is a lot of beer. Anyone who likes to brew is eventually going to end up in a situation where he/she is drinking far too much or not brewing often enough to sustain interest in the hobby. I brewed 5-gallon batches for a decade before taking a ten and a half year hiatus from the hobby due to the fact that I found myself dumping perfectly good batches in order to be able to brew another batch.

Do you not have any freinds , just joking
I am in the process of scaling up my batches (my equipment can do it except for I need 2x buckets instead of 1 ) mainly for the reason that I don't get to brew as often as I like and I'm always running out of beer (expecially when the inlaws help me kick a 3 gallon batch in a week!). I want to brew more often but I don't think I will struggle to find poeple to drink my beer.
The only problem is getting enough pry-off bottles - my solution is to mainly take my beer to them and drink it in their company. I can get there immediate feedback (without them having much of a chance to think of how to soften the blow ) and can tell them that I'll take care of the bottles, e.g. leave them in the sink and I'll clean up!

 

[eastoak]

I endorse going straight to your end goal, however...
I would utilize the keggles for BK and HLT, but not the MT. For that I would go with a cooler based insulated kettle.
I slowly went from one keggle, to two, then added a stand alone electric HLT. The only thing I'm not really happy with is the MT because it's so hard to hold temps.
I've spent a ton of money trying to make it work, but in the end, it all comes down to heat loss.
I would also skip the three-tier, and go with a single tier two-place stand with a pump, and make the HLT electric and placed high for gravity feed.
Just my $.02

i would not bother with a cooler mash tun. a direct fire mash tun, HERMS, or RIMS is a much better option for someone who wants to go to 10 gal+ batches.

 

[Transamguy77]

There are a lot of goods points here, my 2 cents.
I have a 3 tier keggle set up to make 10 gallon batches, I realized I wanted to make 10 gallons at a time after I made my first 5 gallon BIAB batch, my life is pretty busy and making 10 gallons is only like an hour longer than 5 so I can brew less. Don't get me wrong I like to brew but sometimes life doesn't let me.

As far as holding temps in my mash tun I use an old comforter and wrap it when I hit my temps and since I can direct fire IF I need to I can just turn on the fire, usually I only loose a couple of degrees over an hour. I brewed a few weeks ago with below freezing temps and I got another blanket and only lost 1 degree over that hour.

Go as big as you want if you achieve what your goal is you will be happy, another option is to brew with someone else and split the batch I've done that a few times.

 

[acidrain]

i would not bother with a cooler mash tun. a direct fire mash tun, HERMS, or RIMS is a much better option for someone who wants to go to 10 gal+ batches.

Is that what you do? How's that working out for ya?

Let's see, here's what I have & spent...
Cut keggle & welded bulkheads $150.
Insulation, SS wrap $80.
Pump, hoses, valves, connectors $280.
RIMS tube, element housing, TC fittings $250.
PID, control panel, cables, connectors $250.
Mixing motor, custom fabricated mixing rake $200.

Vs.

10 gal Cooler $50
SS conversion kit $65
or...
75 qt. cooler $50.
SS fittings $25.
Copper manifold $25.

Am I missing something?

I have to admit, I love the looks of mine. All polished & shiny, but if I scorch one more batch trying to maintain temp, you'll see it for sale.
It's like a freak'n Rube Goldburg mash tun... one thing fixes another, fixes another, fixes another.

 

[eastoak]

Is that what you do? How's that working out for ya?

Let's see, here's what I have & spent...
Cut keggle & welded bulkheads $150.
Insulation, SS wrap $80.
Pump, hoses, valves, connectors $280.
RIMS tube, element housing, TC fittings $250.
PID, control panel, cables, connectors $250.
Mixing motor, custom fabricated mixing rake $200.

Vs.

10 gal Cooler $50
SS conversion kit $65
or...
75 qt. cooler $50.
SS fittings $25.
Copper manifold $25.

Am I missing something?

I have to admit, I love the looks of mine. All polished & shiny, but if I scorch one more batch trying to maintain temp, you'll see it for sale.
It's like a freak'n Rube Goldburg mash tun... one thing fixes another, fixes another, fixes another.

i have a top tier with a mash module, works great. as far as the costs i think it might have been somewhere around $2400 or so, i forget.