skipping secondary, keeping in primary

[AnOldUR]

I think even the staunchest proponent of secondary for the reason of minimizing yeast flavor would fail a double-blind test, when push comes to shove. But that's just my sense.

If I remember correctly in the Basic Brewing Radio podcast experiment, differences were noted in the batches, but preferences were about equally divided.

 

[fearwig]

So it was double blind? And there were no other possible factors in the fermentation? I mean I don't really expect anything absolutely scientific (multiple tests, subjects, etc), but beer geeks would sooner die than say they can't distinguish two samples, y'know, even when they come from the same bottle. I'm just saying I'll be awfully hard to convince.

 

[Yooper]

So it was double blind? And there were no other possible factors in the fermentation? I mean I don't really expect anything absolutely scientific (multiple tests, subjects, etc), but beer geeks would sooner die than say they can't distinguish two samples, y'know, even when they come from the same bottle. I'm just saying I'll be awfully hard to convince.

I think it was couple of years ago, and I can't remember the details, but yes, it was a blind sampling.

The interesting thing to me was that everybody noted differences in the beers, even if subtle. But, the preference for one over the other was almost evenly split- that is, some liked the shorter primary, some liked the primary/secondary, and some liked the long primary better.

 

[fearwig]

This almost has me wanting to do the test, preferably with an American, English and Belgian strain... with multiple samples... all those things I won't actually ever do.

 

[Genuine]

I've always kept in primary till it was ready to keg. Haven't had an issue yet.


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[pjj2ba]

O......... ales with even a little yeast character--are dependent on cell activity that will include autolysis, on some level or another. It is a yeast flavor, to go with all the other yeast flavors...........

This makes no sense to me. Just because they are dormant, that does not mean they are inert. If cell activity is required, then how does dry hopping or wood aging work? No cell activity going on there. Yeast don't have some magic spell that somehow prevents anything from going into or out of the cells. Diffusion is occurring across the yeast cell membrane, whether still actively metabolizing, or dormant.

You certainly will get more flavor impact from active cells though.

A little science content. Diffusion across the membrane can be passive or active (requiring ATP). Passive diffussion strictly relies on a concentration gradient. If there is more of something inside than out, it will tend to flow out, and vice versa. Now, not all compounds can simply diffuse through the membrane. Non-polar compounds typically can, but polar compounds cannot. That being said, there are proteins in the cell membrane that can facilitate movement of polar molecules across the membrane. Again this is all driven by material simply diffusing from an area of high concentration to low concentration. No energy required. Flavorful esters tend to be non-polar
Now active transport, this is different, and requires the input of energy. What this allows a cell to do is to concentrate things inside the cell, and resist the tendency of materials to be at equal concentrations inside and outside the cell (what physics would like). This is how yeast take up sugars from the wort (sugars are too non-polar to diffuse across the membrane)

Then there is endocytosis and exocytosis which are used to get bigger molecules into and out of cells, like proteases that destroy heading positive proteins

 

[pjj2ba]

So it was double blind? And there were no other possible factors in the fermentation? I mean I don't really expect anything absolutely scientific (multiple tests, subjects, etc), but beer geeks would sooner die than say they can't distinguish two samples, y'know, even when they come from the same bottle. I'm just saying I'll be awfully hard to convince.

Read about it here
byo and basic brewing radio experiment does delayed racking harm your-beer

 

[fearwig]

This makes no sense to me. Just because they are dormant, that does not mean they are inert. If cell activity is required, then how does dry hopping or wood aging work? No cell activity going on there. Yeast don't have some magic spell that somehow prevents anything from going into or out of the cells. Diffusion is occurring across the yeast cell membrane, whether still actively metabolizing, or dormant.

My point is that the yeast were in contact with the beer for all of primary fermentation, what are you getting from them (other than the results of autolysis maybe) when they've gone dormant that you aren't from the first week?

If cell activity is required, then how does dry hopping or wood aging work?

I don't this is an appropriate comparison at all. There is flavor already the wood, that originated somewhere else, and it is seeping out. What flavor (other than those produced by metabolic activity) is in the yeast already that's seeping out? The yeast's contributions to beer flavor are the products of metabolism, not something that just happens to be bound up intrinsically within yeast that seeps out over time. Yeast are alive, your yeast are born in wort. It's (loosely) a closed system.

I'm not saying there can be no difference in flavor at all, because even when dormant there is still some metabolic activity (which is the key). It's just that the effect of being "on the yeast" is overstated by imagining that you're steeping your beer with some outside element, it's not like that at all.

 

[masonsjax]

This makes no sense to me. Just because they are dormant, that does not mean they are inert. If cell activity is required, then how does dry hopping or wood aging work? No cell activity going on there. Yeast don't have some magic spell that somehow prevents anything from going into or out of the cells. Diffusion is occurring across the yeast cell membrane, whether still actively metabolizing, or dormant.

I don't disagree with your point in general, but you're acting like leaving beer in primary is equivalent to adding something new to the fermenter. The yeast was there all along. It's still there when you move the beer to secondary, and it's there in the keg or bottle too, albeit in smaller quantities. Whatever flavors are imparted from the yeast are there regardless. Extra time spent on a large amount of yeast obviously intensifies certain flavors, but it's minimal, and those are not new flavors and not unusual flavors that don't belong in beer. Nobody is implying theres any supernatural suspension of flavor melding, just that it's not changing your beer into a different species, it's just a slightly different development and maturation of the already existing flavor profile.

 

[pjj2ba]

I don't disagree with your point in general, but you're acting like leaving beer in primary is equivalent to adding something new to the fermenter. The yeast was there all along. It's still there when you move the beer to secondary, and it's there in the keg or bottle too, albeit in smaller quantities. Whatever flavors are imparted from the yeast are there regardless. Extra time spent on a large amount of yeast obviously intensifies certain flavors, but it's minimal, and those are not new flavors and not unusual flavors that don't belong in beer. Nobody is implying theres any supernatural suspension of flavor melding, just that it's not changing your beer into a different species, it's just a slightly different development and maturation of the already existing flavor profile.

Again, this is the source of confusion, there are not many people saying you get unusual flavors and different flavors from extra yeast contact. All I (and others) am saying is the flavors that the yeast impart are more evident the longer you leave the beer on the yeast. Just like with longer dry hopping, longer wood exposure, etc. Yes they can be subtle, but to some of us, it matters.

 

[Yooper]

I don't disagree with your point in general, but you're acting like leaving beer in primary is equivalent to adding something new to the fermenter. The yeast was there all along. It's still there when you move the beer to secondary, and it's there in the keg or bottle too, albeit in smaller quantities. Whatever flavors are imparted from the yeast are there regardless. Extra time spent on a large amount of yeast obviously intensifies certain flavors, but it's minimal, and those are not new flavors and not unusual flavors that don't belong in beer. Nobody is implying theres any supernatural suspension of flavor melding, just that it's not changing your beer into a different species, it's just a slightly different development and maturation of the already existing flavor profile.

But thAt is the point! The yeast breaking down (it's not dormant exactly at all) does has a flavor impact. Some find it pleasing, but others don't. Yeast metabolism doesn't magically stop because some folks on a homebrew forum say the yeast should.


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[Puddlethumper]

But thAt is the point! The yeast breaking down (it's not dormant exactly at all) does has a flavor impact. Some find it pleasing, but others don't. Yeast metabolism doesn't magically stop because some folks on a homebrew forum say the yeast should.

I think I have a handle on the process you are describing, but to check on my understanding:

Corn on the cob is good raw
It is still corn on the cob when cooked and tastes better yet
After a week, it is still corn on the cob, but maybe not so tasty?

Do I have that roughly correct?

 

[fearwig]

I also think we got sidetracked and confused between advising people not to secondary and advising people to leave beer on the yeast in primary as long as they would have kept it in secondary, the latter of which everyone agrees you can do, but I'm not sure anyone says you should (unless you refuse to buy a hydrometer or something crazy like that).

There should be no considerable extra yeast character from racking to a bottling bucket or keg rather than to secondary, especially if you cold crash. You're not leaving it on the yeast any longer. There would be a negligible difference due to suspended yeast but that depends on the quality of your method.

 

[AnOldUR]

After a week, it is still corn on the cob, but maybe not so tasty? Do I have that roughly correct?

No! More time on the yeast doesn't make it tastier. It makes it different.

 

[Puddlethumper]

No! More time on the yeast doesn't make it tastier. It makes it different.

Maybe I didn't choose a good example but we agree that there is a noticeable difference in the flavor of the three stages. I think that is the thrust of what many have been trying to say here.

 

[AnOldUR]

This thread could have ended with the 4th post.

This depends on YOUR tastes. Beer left in primary longer picks up extra flavors from the yeast. Some folks like these flavors, some do not, and others don't care. If you prefer the flavors of the secondaried beer, then you will figure out what you need to do to limit the risk of infection and oxidation. Otherwise, just leave it in primary

 

[masonsjax]

Then we would've missed all the discussion and articulation of ideas that some of us hadn't considered. Honestly I think we were all on the same page (or at least the same chapter) to begin with, but have slightly different ways of conceptualizing the same idea. I've enjoyed this civil discussion which seems to be a rarity on the internet.

 

[fearwig]

I've enjoyed this civil discussion which seems to be a rarity on the internet.

No YOU!

 

[Puddlethumper]

then we would've missed all the discussion and articulation of ideas that some of us hadn't considered. Honestly i think we were all on the same page (or at least the same chapter) to begin with, but have slightly different ways of conceptualizing the same idea. I've enjoyed this civil discussion which seems to be a rarity on the internet.

+1

 

[Stlheadake]

Thanks for a great discussion. And YES it was civil.

Next question....anyone use an aluminum boil kettle?

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[fearwig]

Thanks for a great discussion. And YES it was civil.

Next question....anyone use an aluminum boil kettle?

I only use aluminum to make tin foil hats. Any other use is known to cause space autism.

 

[Puddlethumper]

Thanks for a great discussion. And YES it was civil.

Next question....anyone use an aluminum boil kettle?

LOL!

I use an aluminum HLT. Does that count?

 

[Stlheadake]

I couldn't help myself.

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[char005]

Can we all agree that the "my beer was award winning brewed this way" means absolutely nothing? It is so dependent on so many factors that it can't be used as evidence in any case. Award winning in Bumfuk, USA probably doesn't carry a lot of weight in most other places. King of the Apes is still a monkey, no? Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, but I see it way too much nowadays.

 

[Clarke]

Primary for 3-4 weeks then bottle

 

[Clarke]

King of the Apes is still a monkey, no?

LOL... Best quote of the day...

 

[Puddlethumper]

Can we all agree that the "my beer was award winning brewed this way" means absolutely nothing? It is so dependent on so many factors that it can't be used as evidence in any case.

Yup.

 

[JustLooking]

Can we all agree that the "my beer was award winning brewed this way" means absolutely nothing?

It's one step above, " I do this ........ and my beer is great." But yeah, win a medal at the NHC finals (and show proof) and I'll listen.

 

[pjj2ba]

It's one step above, " I do this ........ and my beer is great." But yeah, win a medal at the NHC finals (and show proof) and I'll listen.

NHC winners - pick 2013 final round
2013 NHC Bronze Classic American Pilsner

Now listen up.......

Do it your own way!!!!!! If you like the process you use, and are very comfortable with it, and you like the way the beer turns out, then that is the way YOU should do it.

That being said, don't lock yourself into, "I must always do it this way". Try little new things here and there, you might find something you like even better. Plus don't be afraid to try something radically different either every once and awhile.