Skeeter Pee - Starting with Dry Yeast

[CidahMastah]

FTR, I did the Pee too.

Threw everything in the carboy at once. Pitched 2 sachet of Montrachet on top.

Was fermenting by next day.

I saw you had and nobody was listening

I too plan on tossing two 1118 packets of yeast and only rehydrating. The goal is a lot of yeast, since dry yeast have nutrient in the pack, why not just spend $2 and put two packs in?

Did you break up the yeast nutrient additions? I was thinking of putting it all in at once (I think what you did). For the cost of the recipe.... Worth one failure. I think people over thought this recipe. Lots of busy work IMO from the originator, but I can't talk yet until I try a simpler approach.

My plan is - everything in at the start (except camden/sorbate). Let ferment dry then force carb it for hard lemonade on the lawn tractor and SWMBO.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I saw you had and nobody was listening

I too plan on tossing two 1118 packets of yeast and only rehydrating. The goal is a lot of yeast, since dry yeast have nutrient in the pack, why not just spend $2 and put two packs in?

Did you break up the yeast nutrient additions? I was thinking of putting it all in at once (I think what you did). For the cost of the recipe.... Worth one failure. I think people over thought this recipe. Lots of busy work IMO from the originator, but I can't talk yet until I try a simpler approach.

I used 2/3 of the recipe amounts of nutrient and energizer at pitch.

Waited til I saw fermentation and re-aerated and pitched the last 1/3 of the nutrient and energizer.

The final product is too sweet IMO because of all the backsweetening. But the fermentation was complete and very dry.

 

[CidahMastah]

Cool. So I wonder if the yeast nutrient separate addition is necessary.

You could hold back on the backsweeten for next time around?

Do you plan to do another batch, or is it worth all the press it is getting?

L-1118 yeast is very tough

 

[CidahMastah]

I will post back when I start this... I think this weekend. My plan will be to:

1. Mix sugar, concentrate, yeast nutrient, Yeast energizer up in a sanitized bottling bucket.
2. Aerate mixture
3. Rehydrate two packs of lavlin 1118, once foamy, pitch into carboy
4. after ferment cold crash 24-48 hrs, then camden at 30 PPM, sorbate, backsweeten to taste and force carb of course.

I figure worst case I can repitch yeast. I would be out .80 for another packet.

 

[Polorl69]

I had no problems whatsoever getting my pee to ferment. here is what I did a little differently than the original recipe

- did not let it sit for 2 days
- added only 1 bottle of Real Lemon on the first day
- added the 2nd bottle on the 2nd day
- used 2 packs of EC-1118 ( put in 90 deg water 15 minutes before pitching, stired in 5 minutes before)

I started at 1.68 finished at .099. I fermenteed in a glass carboy with an airlock the whole time, never got a sulfer smell at all. It was a very very agressive fermenter, It bubbled for 6 days straight, on the 7th it was done. reracked and killed off the yeast.

 

[CidahMastah]

I had no problems whatsoever getting my pee to ferment. here is what I did a little differently than the original recipe

- did not let it sit for 2 days
- added only 1 bottle of Real Lemon on the first day
- added the 2nd bottle on the 2nd day
- used 2 packs of EC-1118 ( put in 90 deg water 15 minutes before pitching, stired in 5 minutes before)

I started at 1.68 finished at .099. I fermenteed in a glass carboy with an airlock the whole time, never got a sulfer smell at all. It was a very very agressive fermenter, It bubbled for 6 days straight, on the 7th it was done. reracked and killed off the yeast.

Thanks for this information! I thought the process of the recipe was a little busy, I suspect that was a correct assumption.

Should have asked - how did you like the turnout? Would you repeat it?

 

[HappyWino]

I have a batch of this in secondary right now. I didn't have a yeast cake either so I hydrated a single packet of 1118 with Go-Ferm according to the manufacturers instructions. After ~30 mins I added an equal volume of must, left it another 30 mins and pitched it.

I added FermaidK after ~10 hours (per the manufacturers instructions) and fermentation was clearly underway, albeit slowly, the next day. Fermentation stayed at a slow pace for the first few days so I added a heater to bring the must up from ~65 deg to ~70, this definitely increased the apparent speed of fermentation (airlock activity) but still not what I would really call a strong fermentation.

After surfing around for others experiences again, I read Lon's recipe for the 100th time and noticed this quote that I somehow had skimmed over before "It helps to keep this must warm (70-80 degrees)." I adjusted the heater up to ~76 degs and once the must got up to temperature things started moving at what I would consider to be a "normal" pace.

Moral of this story for me at least is that I will start the must at around 76 degs from the get go next time.

On the subject of "next time", SWMBO (and pretty much anybody else that hears I am making "Lemon juice wine") pulls a "bluerch" face and clearly expects this to go down the drain...well that all changed when she tasted the cup or so I had left over after racking into secondary It was lightly carbonated from fermentation so I am hoping this will be my gateway into a kegging setup so I can force carb this for her to enjoy

Cheers

HW

 

[HappyWino]

Forgot to mention a few things;

I did let the must stand for ~24 hours before pitching, not because of preservatives in the lemon juice, mine had none, but because I was worried about the amounts of chlorine in the tap water hindering fermentation in an already difficult must.

I did whip the must for the first couple of days but then used a long handled spoon after that and concentrated more on stirring up the yeast off the bottom than really whipping oxygen into it...I know Lon and many others have made gallon after gallon of this stuff but whipping oxygen into an anaerobic fermentation just seems wrong to me (not that I am a fermentation expert!!!)

Next batch I won't let it stand and I will stir it but not whip it...and chances are I'll be here crying that I should have followed Lon's experience and could he please help me fix it now

Cheers

HW

 

[CidahMastah]

so I am hoping this will be my gateway into a kegging setup so I can force carb this for her to enjoy

Cheers

HW

Haha - I never knew sceeter pee was a gateway drug... That was how I got mine. "Honey, you know I could make something that tastes like woodchuck with carbonation if we had a kegging set up...

Ha - the rest was history.

I agree on your point of additional aeration (after the fermentation is going well). I think it won't help. Now perhaps you are stirring up the yeast and reactivating some that has dropped out of suspension. But for me I would like to see what happens with a much less hands on approach.

I had also thought it would be crucial to have the ferment temp above 70F.

Thanks for the info!

 

[HappyWino]

Thinking just a little more about stirring...if starting @ ~76 degs gets me a solid fermentation I won't mess with it at all at that point.

Cheers

HW

 

[HappyWino]

Sorry for the post barrage but...


One thing that shouldn't be taken lightly, and very likely made my fermentation much easier, is that my lemon juice (organic Italian from Costco) contained ZERO preservatives. Lots of the struggles that people have historically had were probably caused by the preservatives in the LJ, which is likely what led to some of these more "unorthodox" methods to achieve a successful ferment.

For example, does anybody know whether the repeated introduction of large amounts of oxygen "uses up" the preservatives typically found in LJ?

Cheers

HW

 

[CidahMastah]

.

For example, does anybody know whether the repeated introduction of large amounts of oxygen "uses up" the preservatives typically found in LJ?

Cheers

HW

I raised an eyebrow at this statement as well. Unless they are refering to vitamin C as a preservative. I know vitamin C will vapor off to some extent. Is there enough to hinder a fermentation without waiting, apparently not since several posters indicated they didn't wait. From many juices (concentrate or regular) i see, ascorbic acid is the the preservative, not sorbate.

I do think there is a lot of extra process in this recipe. When the process worked, it seemed like they wanted to rationalize each step of the process. I know with cider I read that you shouldn't bother adding yeast nutrient after the start of fermentation. I can't recall why, but I remember them saying before only. So that was one of the many things I read about the process that made me think there were some made up necessities.

No offense meant to the originator. Just think there is a little extra voodoo in there.

 

[WildGingerBrewing]

Been wanting to make this but since I don't make wine I thought I couldn't. Thanks to the OP for the experiment. This is now on the list of things to make soon!

 

[geniz]

Just a few points to recent posts. I stirred my must a couple of times daily while in primary. I don't know if it made any difference, but it certainly didn't hurt the final outcome. There are plenty of threads that discuss the importance of oxygenation during primary.

I think the second addition of nutrient and energizer are important. My fermentation was sluggish until the second addition when it really took off and formed a cap.

My final product came out great. It was sweet, but not cloying. Certainly will be a staple this summer. I posted my final numbers in the main skeeter pee thread.

 

[CidahMastah]

Geniz - are you of the opinion that putting all the nutrient and engergizer upfront would have a different effect than splitting it into two additions?

I take it you would do it again from your post. I plan on doing a double batch in a demi john this weekend and splitting it with a friend. Trying to decide if I am going to go with the "set it and forget it" (ronco style) method - everything up front (but not all the lemon juice). I may hold off on all the lemon juice additions at once though. I think that the reason for this is to encourage a large healthy yeasty beastie contribution before you smack them with all the acidity.

Gotta love a 5 gallon recipe that costs about 15 bucks....

 

[HappyWino]

Here is a snippet from an email exchange I had with the "help guy" at the FermaidK manufacturer;

Usually a lot of sugar is added to the fermentation. Sugar is empty calories with no nutrients for the yeast to grow on. You should add 25 gm./hl (2 lbs/ 1000 gallons) of Fermaid K at the beginning of the fermentation and 50grams/hl of DAP after 1/3 of the sugar has been converted. 50 gm./hl Fermaid O instead of DAP is worth trying to improve the flavor and aroma profile.

Didn't have FermaidO or DAP on hand so I just used FermaidK at 1/3 sugar consumption.

YMMV

Cheers

HW

 

[CidahMastah]

Here is a snippet from an email exchange I had with the "help guy" at the FermaidK manufacturer;

Usually a lot of sugar is added to the fermentation. Sugar is empty calories with no nutrients for the yeast to grow on. You should add 25 gm./hl (2 lbs/ 1000 gallons) of Fermaid K at the beginning of the fermentation and 50grams/hl of DAP after 1/3 of the sugar has been converted. 50 gm./hl Fermaid O instead of DAP is worth trying to improve the flavor and aroma profile.

Didn't have FermaidO or DAP on hand so I just used FermaidK at 1/3 sugar consumption.

YMMV

Cheers

HW

Touche - well played sir haha! You learn something new, every brew!

 

[WIP]

Fermaid K has Dap in it.

 

[geniz]

Geniz - are you of the opinion that putting all the nutrient and engergizer upfront would have a different effect than splitting it into two additions?

I take it you would do it again from your post. I plan on doing a double batch in a demi john this weekend and splitting it with a friend. Trying to decide if I am going to go with the "set it and forget it" (ronco style) method - everything up front (but not all the lemon juice). I may hold off on all the lemon juice additions at once though. I think that the reason for this is to encourage a large healthy yeasty beastie contribution before you smack them with all the acidity.

Gotta love a 5 gallon recipe that costs about 15 bucks....

I wanted to follow the original recipe and change only one thing - to start with dry yeast. I followed the original recipe to maximize my chance of success.

 

[OHIOSTEVE]

has anyone ever tried fermenting just the invert sugar and water, then adding in the lemon nuice at the end? I wonder if there are any fermentables even in the juice?

 

[WIP]

Sugar water fermented tastes horrible, and lemon juice has a ton of sugar in it. I wouldn't suggest it.

 

[HappyWino]

has anyone ever tried fermenting just the invert sugar and water, then adding in the lemon nuice at the end? I wonder if there are any fermentables even in the juice?

I remember reading some threads where folks were doing what they called a "backwards starter", basically starting fermentation on sugar water and nutrient, then adding the lemon juice every x number of days. They were having success but it did seem like a long way around.

I don't remember what the thread was, it might even have been the original Skeeter Pee thread.

Cheers

HW

 

[CidahMastah]

Just did a double batch of skeeter pee in one of my demi johns. Had everything rolling pitched the yeast and ... there was something floating in my skeeterpee....

I was about to get peeved, then I saw what it was... no joke. There was a mosquito floating in the mixture.

I think that it was a sign, so I left it in for the ferment!

I hydrated the yeast packets (Used L1118); plan to do the split energizer and nutrient additions.

Edit: Started 2/13/11 - Strong ferment going as of 2/15/11; still chugging 2/18/11 ferment temp is 68F;

I waited about 24 hours and tossed in the second energizer and nutrient installment (I did not wait 24hours to pitch yeasty - I just through it all in less 1/3 of the lemon juice, then addied the remaining juice at 24hrs). Ferment temp is 73F.

 

[WIP]

I started mine today. Seeing as you have to let it sit for 24 hrs, I am trying something. I took 10 oz of the must and diluted it with 10 oz of water and used this to get a starter going. If it isn't going by the time I am supposed to inoculate, I will rehydrate more yeast and go that route. I have 500 g of VL2 at my disposal, so wasting yeast doesn't bother me. I know the starter is small, but I just threw it in one of the lemon juice bottles.

 

[geniz]

I started mine today. Seeing as you have to let it sit for 24 hrs, I am trying something. I took 10 oz of the must and diluted it with 10 oz of water and used this to get a starter going. If it isn't going by the time I am supposed to inoculate, I will rehydrate more yeast and go that route. I have 500 g of VL2 at my disposal, so wasting yeast doesn't bother me. I know the starter is small, but I just threw it in one of the lemon juice bottles.

Looking forward to the result

 

[CidahMastah]

I should clarify - I double pitched the yeast +1. I had five lalvlin 1118s around and tossed them all in hydrated.

So:
5 packs lavlin yeast
~11gallons of water brought to gravity of 1.070 with sugar
6tsp yeast nutrient
2 tsp energizer

Everything went in together less 1/3 the lemon juice and 1/2 of the yeast nutrient and energizer. About 24 hours I dumped in the 1/3 lemon juice and the remeining yeast nutrient/energizer

All is well

 

[WIP]

Looking forward to the result

Result. 11 hours in, I wake up to a very active starter. Luckily I had it in a bowl. I think I am going to pitch it when I get home from work.

 

[WIP]

After 24 hours the starter was doing fine, so I pitched it. The pee was slowly rolling after about 16 hours. 24 hours after pitching I checked the gravity and I am down from 1.090 to 1.079. I think I may be doing the final addition of nutrient and juice tomorrow evening. I am going to open the juice tonight to try and work off some of the preservatives.

The only thing I changed from the original recipe (besides the yeast) was the nutrient/ energizer. I just used FermaidK since it is what I have.

 

[lalnx]

Well I jugged/kegged my pee this weekend. 1 gallon back sweetend with a can of cranberry juice conc. and 1/2 cup sugar, and 4.5 gallons to a keg with 4 cans lime-ade, 2 cups sugar. Both very tasty, keeping the jug still, and carbing the "margarita" version for a party this weekend. Mine was started with a 64oz white grape juice starter for 48 hrs, every thing else done per recipe. whisked daily. While the pee itself never had an oder, I found out what the sulfer smell was about when I was rinsing the dregs from the carboy with hot water :cross:, it was in there then. Never having done a wine before, if the whisking helped keep that odor from taking hold in the pee itself, I won't skip that step for sure. Also, I'm not sure I'm willing to risk a batch by not doing that step, it isn't a huge job.

 

[CidahMastah]

Well I jugged/kegged my pee this weekend. 1 gallon back sweetend with a can of cranberry juice conc. and 1/2 cup sugar, and 4.5 gallons to a keg with 4 cans lime-ade, 2 cups sugar. Both very tasty, keeping the jug still, and carbing the "margarita" version for a party this weekend. Mine was started with a 64oz white grape juice starter for 48 hrs, every thing else done per recipe. whisked daily. While the pee itself never had an oder, I found out what the sulfer smell was about when I was rinsing the dregs from the carboy with hot water :cross:, it was in there then. Never having done a wine before, if the whisking helped keep that odor from taking hold in the pee itself, I won't skip that step for sure. Also, I'm not sure I'm willing to risk a batch by not doing that step, it isn't a huge job.

The whisking probably does not impact the sulfur - sulfur gets pushed out, if present, by the co2 during ferment through your airlock. I think the wisking is supposed to act like a stir plate, getting more yeast back up and into suspension. I haven't touched mine once after the second addition of nutrient/energizer (24 hours from start). It has been a week and it is fermenting strong, near the end of the ferment.

 

[lalnx]

I suppose healthy happy yeast due to the energizer and nutrient are more important to reducing odor, I had just assumed the whisking helped degas and release it so it didn't accumulate. I wouldn't need to stir mine, I had/have more than enough yeast in suspension. I didn't bother to use sparkloid, just cold crashed with the yeast killers. Hardly noticed a change in in a weeks time. Bottled any way, hey it looks like lemonade. Make sure to let us know how the "set it and forget it" goes. I look forward to it, I think we used the same yeast also, 1118. The simpler the better, that way maybe my wife will just make it herself. After all, I think her and her friends will be pretty hard on this stuff, and I can spend my time making beer!

 

[CidahMastah]

Will do - I can't wait to try mine. Still very happy, I mean, we had sugar left over from cider this year, so... $12.93 + yeast nutrient and energizer for ~11 gallons worth of straight up lemonade hooch! Life is good! I am gonna end up crashing my lawn mower into something...

I was 1118 too. Figured I might as well pick a bully yeast to put in the acidic environment

 

[WIP]

One other thing I am doing differently is my aeration. I am aerating it at least twice a day until it is close to dry. When making wine at the winery we aerate every 6 hours to keep the yeast happy. It seems to be working so far. The yeast are working great, and the stink is minimal.

 

[geniz]

I also aerated mine twice daily while in primary. Yeast were happy and no sulphur smell

 

[CidahMastah]

Update - Yeast from packets and less steps:

My ferment started 2/13/11 and is just about dry, very slow ferment right now, should be done in a day or so.

I thought I would post back with the following information:

1. I only aerated at yeast pitching (which I did right away, and didn't wait 24 hours)
2. I did split the yeast nutrient and energizer additions, half up front and half about 24hours later.
3. I didn't touch the ferment again and it had a nice constant steady ferment throughout and no off smells from the ferment.

Details:

1. Double batch of skeeter pee in a demi john - planned on using 4x1118 yeast packs but had 5 on hand so figured eh, it won't hurt. So 5x1118 yeast packs @ 85 cents each.
2. started 2/13/11, should be done by end of week latest (3/4/11)
3. Used warm tap water to help dissolve the sugar, added 2/3 of lemon juice and 1/2 of nutrient and energizer up front (cooled pee to ~77F before pitching). I hydrated my yeast prior to pitching, but no starter.
3. Ferment temp ~68F-73F
4. About 24 hours and tossed in the rest of the lemon juice and the rest of the energizer and nutrient.

Conclusions:
There are a lot of extra steps in the original recipe (perhaps a few more that I did) that may or may not hurt the process (make you more prone to infect your wine, etc). I tend to think that extra aeration after the first 24-48 hours is not helpful, and possibly harmful. since this part of the fermentation is anaerobic anyhow. All you would be doing is oxidizing the must.


Next time:
I plan to pitch everything in at once next time and see what happens. I think as long as you prime it with enough yeast, you will be good to go.

 

[WIP]

Interesting findings. I didn't agitate mine in the first 24 hours after pitching and it was already smelling funky, so I started stirring it at least twice a day with a paddle on a drill and the smell was gone for the rest of the ferment. I didn't stir after it was down to 1.015 because I wanted the CO2 to push the rest of the air out. I pitched my puny starter on 2/18 and I racked it on 2/28. So 10 days.

 

[CidahMastah]

Did you use 1118 yeast? Ferment temp?

 

[WIP]

I used VL2 at 68-72*

 

[CidahMastah]

WIP - that might just be a yeast difference. 1118 is a more robust strain than VL2. Probably the VL2 was stressing a bit with the poor environment. 1118 is a powerhouse, capable of unsticking a stuck ferment in most all conditions.

I still think that in 99 percent of the cases that you smell sulfur it isn't a big deal. Just keep your airlock on and it will vapor off (that has been my personal experience).

 

[geniz]

I used 1118. I stirred twice daily while in primary to keep sulphur smell out and to keep yeast suspended to give the must the best chance of fermenting.