Simple Cherry Wine making questions

[WangusKahn]

So I started up a simple wine tonight just made up of oceanspray cherry juice and a little blueberry pomegranate juice. I have a few questions about sugar and yeast if anybody can shed a little light. I've only done three or four different batches of wines so far so don't worry... I know I don't know what I'm doing.

First, I'm wondering about using regular, storebought granulated sugar. My understanding is that this is cane or beet sugar and should break down into sucrose and dextrose if heated near boiling for about a half an hour. So I did this and then added it to the carboy with the juice. So I guess my question is just... was I correct in doing this?

The other thing I was wondering about is adding fruit to the bottom of the brew during fermentation. I added raisins already for body and what some have dubbed "mouthfeel." I think there may be a better name for that out there. So I was also thinking about adding cut up cranberries and maybe an apple. Would this be a good idea or would it be better to do this after racking the wine?

 

[Unferth]

Table sugar by itself works ok, but the yeast go through another process to break it down. If you heated it for long enough you will 'invert' it to fructose and glucose/dextrose (sucrose is table sugar). In the future, you might add some acid (lemon juice or cream of tartar) to invert more of the sucrose more efficiently.

Fruit at the bottom is preference. It very well may give some fresh flavor to your juice wine. Personally, I'd stick with cherries though if you do put fruit in there for a more uniform palette.

If you do so, I'd add a couple crushed Camden tablets and water to them for about 12 hours first. Should clean them up a bit.

 

[MzAnnie]

I just use a simple syrup of 4 cups sugar to 1 pint of water, heated until the sugar is dissolved. I keep the leftover in the refridgerator. I tried to make wine using inverted sugar I had made myself, and it was more trouble than what it was worth, Then again, I am not a fine wine connoisseur. I have always added all my fruit at the beginning of the process.

 

[WangusKahn]

Nice, thanks for the replies!

One thing I was worried about was that the fresh fruit might introduce some wild yeasts so good call on the campden tablets. I didn't even know those existed before just now! I might have to grab some and add some fruit. I think adding a different fruit than cherries might be good. Cherries are expensive right now anyway :fro:

I believe I heated it long enough to at least begin inverting it. Who knows what kind of Frankenstein monster I put in there. Now that I know the terminology I can actually look it up and read about it. I found a pretty good page about it here: http://www.fermentarium.com/homebrewing/belgian-candi-vs-table-sugar-for-homebrew-beer/

MzAnnie, I did the exact same thing for my first couple of wine brews, just melted some sugar down in water or the juice itself. Did you notice any difference in the flavor when you inverted your sugar? And considering that my wine is made of Oceanspray cherry juice, I'm not a wine connoisseur either.. Just a firm believer in trial and error. Who knows, sometimes ugly parents have a good-looking baby.

 

[Yooper]

You don't have to worry about inverting the sugar- wine yeast love table sugar also!

I don't claim it's fine wine, but I have quite a few country wines posted under my avatar in the database, if you want to take a look. Things in the store like Welch's juice, bananas, frozen fruit, etc, all make a nice table wine.

 

[WangusKahn]

Cool, I'll check them out. Banana wine sounds interesting INDEED! I'll serve that with banana splits!

The issue that I keep seeing with the table sugar is that the yeast make an enzyme in order to break it down that some people think adds an off flavor. Maybe this is only an issue in beer? Maybe it's all in their heads?

 

[Yooper]

The issue that I keep seeing with the table sugar is that the yeast make an enzyme in order to break it down that some people think adds an off flavor. Maybe this is only an issue in beer? Maybe it's all in their heads?

I don't know. I've only been making wine for 25 years, so I'm not one to know what "off flavor" they mean. It hasn't happened to me yet.

I've only been making beer for about 7 years, though- and I do NOT use table sugar in any quantity at all for any but one or two beers.

 

[WangusKahn]

Well I'll take your word for it. Thanks!

 

[Unferth]

I use invert sugar for baking and brewing. I've also used table sugar, but honestly I just like the taste of invert syrup better than simple syrup. I've not noticed a difference fermentation wise, but if its easier for my pretty little yeasties to digest, I'll chew their food for them.

Why the no table sugar in beer brewing but yes in wine? Seems to be common practice, but I'm not sure why.

 

[saramc]

The issue that I keep seeing with the table sugar is that the yeast make an enzyme in order to break it down that some people think adds an off flavor. Maybe this is only an issue in beer? Maybe it's all in their heads?

There is an enzyme called 'invertase' and it is naturally found in grapes, and other plants. Research indicates that it is thought to be universal in terms of a plant's makeup(see link under "2.").

The official name for invertase is beta-fructofuranosidase (EC3.2.1.26), which implies that the reaction catalyzed by this enzyme is the hydrolysis of the terminal nonreducing beta-fructofuranoside residues in beta-fructofuranosides. Note that alpha-D-glucosidase, which splits off a terminal glucose unit, can also catalyze this reaction. Note that sucrose can be hydrolyzed relatively easily; the reaction proceeds in an acidic environment without the aid of invertase.

On the industrial/commercial side of things, invertase is chiefly derived from yeast strains of Saccharomyces cerevisiae or Saccharomyces carlsbergensis. It is also synthesized by bees, who use it to make honey from nectar.

Anyway, when table sugar is used many people prefer to make an invert syrup with the sugar because this causes less stress on the yeast.

Some articles here:
1. http://worldofenzymes.info/enzymes-introduction/invertase/
2. see also: Invertasei Occurrence of , in Plants. J. H. Kastle and M. B. Clark. Amer. Chem. J., 1903, 30, [5], 422— 427
http://books.google.com/books?id=rv...a=X&ei=YwHSUMiPJ4nhqAHEv4DYCA&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAw -- scroll down after opening the link and look for section on invertase.

 

[MzAnnie]

Nice, thanks for the replies!

One thing I was worried about was that the fresh fruit might introduce some wild yeasts so good call on the campden tablets. I didn't even know those existed before just now! I might have to grab some and add some fruit. I think adding a different fruit than cherries might be good. Cherries are expensive right now anyway :fro:

I believe I heated it long enough to at least begin inverting it. Who knows what kind of Frankenstein monster I put in there. Now that I know the terminology I can actually look it up and read about it. I found a pretty good page about it here: http://www.fermentarium.com/homebrewing/belgian-candi-vs-table-sugar-for-homebrew-beer/

MzAnnie, I did the exact same thing for my first couple of wine brews, just melted some sugar down in water or the juice itself. Did you notice any difference in the flavor when you inverted your sugar? And considering that my wine is made of Oceanspray cherry juice, I'm not a wine connoisseur either.. Just a firm believer in trial and error. Who knows, sometimes ugly parents have a good-looking baby.

Never noticed a difference in flavor at all. I used to boil my syrup, but I had to wait to pitch my yeast, until it cooled. Now I heat it until the sugar is dissolved, stir it in, and grab a couple of cups to use as a starter for the "beasts" when it is warm. They seem to like that. Now that it is winter, I have been using canned juice more often, to keep my stockpile going. Now, even though the wine is good with canned juice, nothing beats using fresh produce to make your wines. I just went to Louisiana and got a mess of fresh satsumas to experiment with. I always try to plan my wine to the season of the fruit that I grow or can buy from the local growers, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way, and I use canned. Although, I use Dole pineapple juice all the time for my pineapple wine,. I always have 5 gallons of that in stasis.