Your house is loaded with copper pipes that carry your drinking water or the water from your water heater to your shower head, sink, etc. Standard procedure in house building really. People mentioning the lead content of plumbing fixtures should be aware that food/water grade plumbing fixtures are legally mandated to be "ultra low lead" as long as they are buying the correct grade. This means fractions of a percent which will not harm you. People should also note that some of the copper home brewers are using is NOT food grade. Refrigeration grade copper lines could contain lead or other trace metals, so buyer beware when buying that cheapo copper to build your chillers.
Should we be eliminating copper hardware?
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Agree UndeadFred, just sharing what is on the FDA web page. It wouldn't be the first time the FDA was incorrect. 
From the ASTM B280 standards for copper AC/refrigerant tubing:
Copper tube used for air conditioning and refrigeration applications in the field (sometimes called "refer" or "ACR" tube) is an almost pure copper material meeting the requirements of ASTM B 280 - Standard Specification for Seamless Copper Tube for Air Conditioning and Refrigeration Field Service. It is manufactured from copper alloy C12200 having a chemical composition of a minimum of 99.9% Copper (Cu) and Silver (Ag) combined and a maximum allowable range of Phosphorous (P) of 0.015 % - 0.040 %.
I think we'll be OK with our DIY chillers.
And I doubt very much that chillers sold by brew stores are using something else, when ACR tubing is so readily available.
Firewalker11
Brewer
Assuming they want customers to come back and buy more. :smack:
Why does this thread remind me of DMHO? You breathe that stuff, even for a second and you die!!!
OP
OP
Copper will not typically contain lead unless it was processed with it. Brass will have small amounts of lead in it and, IMHO, should be avoided in brew hardware.
I have yet to see any copper tubing in stores, or used by contractors, that wasn't ASTM-compliant. Even the cheap Chinese-made tubing sold in home center stores has the certification clearly marked on the packaging.
I suppose it is possible to find some that isn't certified, but it would have to be very cut-rate. Maybe on Alibaba.
As for brass fittings, I believe the new federal regs require lead content to be <0.25%. Plumbing solder has been subject to a lead-free (<0.20%) requirement since the 1990s.
Data for inorganic components of beer on average per style from From Brewing Science and Practice Woodhead publishing 2004
Just for reference
Just for reference
Copper toxicity is not just a problem for someone with Wilson's Disease. If dietary copper sources are too high, anyone can develop copper toxicity, since the body's copper excretion system is pretty slow.
Lead pipe bought new does not pose a lead exposure risk. If you're pulling pipe out of a house built in the 60s, than, yeah, you might run into lead problems.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Organic copper found in the human body is not the same as the inorganic heavy metal...So, where is this "increasing dialogue" happening? If copper were such a problem, it seems we would have known about it long ago, given the heavy use of Cu in cookware and water supplies for centuries. The human body needs small amounts of Cu to function properly.
Brew on
From wiki
"Copper in the blood and blood stream exists in two forms: bound to ceruloplasmin (85–95%), and the rest "free", loosely bound to albumin and small molecules. Free copper normally reduces oxidative stress, as it is involved in the metabolic elimination of reactive oxygen species, such as with the superoxide radical through Cu-Zn dependent superoxide dismutase.[1] Excessive free copper impairs zinc homeostasis, and vice versa, which in turn impairs antioxidant enzyme function, increasing oxidative stress.[1] Chronically elevated levels of copper intake produces zinc deficiency.[1]
Nutritionally, there is a distinct difference between organic and inorganic copper, according to whether the copper ion is bound to an organic ligand.[2][3] Organic copper, like that found in food, is a beneficial micronutrient needed for good health.[4] Inorganic metallic copper, like that found in electrical wire, plumbing pipes, brass fittings, redox water filters, sheet metal, cooking utensils, jewelry and pennies, is a neurotoxic heavy metal linked to physical and psychiatric symptoms on par with mercury and lead.[5][6][7][8]"
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I mentioned a couple times already in other threads that I was in Belgium for a couple weeks for work recently ad while there I Visited the "Kazematten" micro brewery which was a neat brewery built into an old world war 1 bunker in Iepers city wall... Anyway While on a small tour of the brewry the tour guide who was also one of the brewery owners and had a full time job as a biologist or something along those lines Stated out of the blue when showing up the steam heated copper kettle that they purchased it used for a good price because the breweries there were all moving away from using copper for health reasons among others... he cited the health effects form the copper and stated that He had a lot of knowledge on this from his schooling and career field in his full time job. He then stated they were only using the copper equipment themselves until they wcould afford to replace it in the near future.
Also I like history and old building and have read about instances where the whole brewery was gutted or abandon when they decided to eliminate copper from thier equipment.
This old Stella brewery in Belgium is a good example.
http://opacity.us/site138_stella_artois_brewery.htm
The fact of the matter is once copper was used in making wine and cooking and now that is no longer allowed in most countries. all current copper cookware has to be lined with something else like tin or stainless and acid liquids cause the worst reactions... Wort is what 5.2-5.6 ideally? I strongly believe the industry is phasing copper out slowly because of the tremendous cost and shock it would be to many smaller breweries if they didnt... similiarly to the way heavy metal fillings where phased out of dentist offices and not most dentists will go as far as to remove those fillings and replace them just because of the negative health effects they have been proven to contribute to in some cases...
It took about 70 years for the industry to eliminate asbestos AFTER they learned and documented its negative health effect so something like this thats less likely to ever be prove to be tied to someones death is not suprisinly going going to be eliminated slowly. Hell even copper plumbing is becoming increasingly more and more under fire with articles like this.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...e-may-cause-heart-disease-and-alzheimers.aspx
Remember water pipes were once made of lead and even those weren't phased out overnight to my knowledge? ... It had to be done gradually as to not cause panic and major financial losses... Kind of like whats being done with cigarettes and Phillipp Morris being given time to invest in other markets like kraft foods.
The brewery in belgium and thier copper equipment.
![IMG_20151212_155057589[1].jpg](https://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/data/attach/288/288684-IMG-20151212-155057589-1-.jpg "IMG_20151212_155057589[1].jpg")
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Also I like history and old building and have read about instances where the whole brewery was gutted or abandon when they decided to eliminate copper from thier equipment.
This old Stella brewery in Belgium is a good example.
http://opacity.us/site138_stella_artois_brewery.htm
The fact of the matter is once copper was used in making wine and cooking and now that is no longer allowed in most countries. all current copper cookware has to be lined with something else like tin or stainless and acid liquids cause the worst reactions... Wort is what 5.2-5.6 ideally? I strongly believe the industry is phasing copper out slowly because of the tremendous cost and shock it would be to many smaller breweries if they didnt... similiarly to the way heavy metal fillings where phased out of dentist offices and not most dentists will go as far as to remove those fillings and replace them just because of the negative health effects they have been proven to contribute to in some cases...
It took about 70 years for the industry to eliminate asbestos AFTER they learned and documented its negative health effect so something like this thats less likely to ever be prove to be tied to someones death is not suprisinly going going to be eliminated slowly. Hell even copper plumbing is becoming increasingly more and more under fire with articles like this.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...e-may-cause-heart-disease-and-alzheimers.aspx
Remember water pipes were once made of lead and even those weren't phased out overnight to my knowledge? ... It had to be done gradually as to not cause panic and major financial losses... Kind of like whats being done with cigarettes and Phillipp Morris being given time to invest in other markets like kraft foods.
The brewery in belgium and thier copper equipment.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
You do realize that a very good portion of the homebrewing suppliers buy their product on alibaba right? I heard on the news radio that During aliexpress's "black friday" sale they sold more than 7 times the mechandise than amazon and ebay put together during thier black friday sales in 2014.... alibaba and its retail site aliexpress are the words leading marketing distribution sites right now for the main reason that china exports more good than anyone any its the the outlet for those chinese manufacturers and suppliers to sell to middlemen to rebrand and markup So we can buy it for 10 times the cost and sleep better at night because we bought it from an American company.
You can find things like the heating elements ebrew supply buys there and sells for $42 plus shipping sold for between $3-10 a piece depending on volume purchased here http://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...62175659.html?spm=a2700.7724838.30.260.wVmlxj
Even Auberins orders their stuff from Alibaba suppliers...
Just saying just because there junk sold on alibaba there doesn't mean everything there should be associated with dangerous cheap knockoffs... its a big resource like the internet itself..
Yeah, my only point was that people need to pay attention to make sure the plumbing fittings and hardware they buy meet the basic standards. It's not irrelevant information, it's important. You don't want to use galvanized fittings that might contain lead for your brew kettle or some such nonsense. With that said, there's a lot of unfounded paranoia in this thread, but also some good information mixed in here and there too.
Reading that just gave me a headache.
I was spitballing on the Alibaba thing. I have no idea if their copper tubing is ASTM-compliant.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Yeah I could see that when rereading it.Reading that just gave me a headache.
I was spitballing on the Alibaba thing. I have no idea if their copper tubing is ASTM-compliant.
Well in a nutshell I was just saying that all of us including yourself have bought stuff from alibaba, Most of us just got it through a middleman like the large portion of the sponsors here. Hell you can find almost every homebrewing conical sold there direct except the few that are made in Toledo or made for SSbrewtech and bru gear in china.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I can respect that opinion... But at the same time its just as silly to say because its now currently not against code or the law it never will be proven harmful? history alone shows how silly that blind line of thinking can be.
At one time you can find people claiming the thought of anything was silly before it eventually became excepted and known to be a problem regardless to evidence. People shouldn't just blindly trust in other people to do their thinking for the all the time... Just about every month some drug that was safe the month before is pulled from the market after its shown to possibly do more harm than good some of them end up causing a lot of damage and deaths before this happens.... The health of the consumers health is not always the priority... History has shown that time and time again what makes today any different?
You can find some funny commercials and press releases on you tube about now known dangerous things.
Like the one when the (then) owner of Phillip Morris stated that smoking while pregnant has no proven negative impact and if anything its desirable that it can result in smaller babies
The reality was that when this statement was made it had already been scientifically and with out a doubt, been proven to be harmful for over 10 years! It took lobbying to the Feds and surgeon generals warning before people would take any of it seriously. The result after that was a steady decline of asthma cases reported each year and its easy to spot the countries with the highest amount of people ignorant to this information
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I should point out that starting like 2 years ago all brass plumbing components designed for water use sold have to be "lead free" meaning they have like 2% lead content on average... A home brewer can use a process with household chemicals to draw the lead on the surface out of the brass although I dont remember how off hand... and if your using old brass you found at a selvage yard or in your dads garage then yeah all bets are off on lead content
and it still turns funky with nasty colors when used in home brewing so I would avoid it
Link please. There are countless wikis on the net, so "from wiki" is not a proper reference.
Brew on
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
It was enough of an issue to phase them out and have my dentist insist on removing and replacing them. people made moonshine once in lead riddled stills and not all of the people who drank from in had issues but you can bet it caused problems for some... there are forms of cancer that are caused by unknown environmental factors... people get these all the time and there is usually enough investigation done at that point to track down the true cause... With all our science and knowledge thyroid, liver and kidney cancers are still rising each year.
My take on it is you would have to consume a lot of beer made in copper to likely see any bad effects but since I do drink a lot of the beer I make why take the unnecessary risk? Its just not worth it.
OP
OP
I should point out that starting like 2 years ago all brass plumbing components designed for water use sold have to be "lead free" meaning they have like 2% lead content on average... A home brewer can use a process with household chemicals to draw the lead on the surface out of the brass although I dont remember how off hand... and if your using old brass you found at a selvage yard or in your dads garage then yeah all bets are off on lead content
I remember seeing an article about how to try to remove lead from brass... Bottom line is that the process generally doesn't work, and often makes it worse. It's a personal call of course, but you won't find brass on my rig.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Link please. There are countless wikis on the net, so "from wiki" is not a proper reference.
Brew on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
mine either but then again besides the brazing on my plate chiller you wont find copper in mine either...
I find it odd that there are so many who are concerned with using an fda approved plastic because they dont fully trust it and that ok but even suggesting such things about the use of a toxic heavy metal that already been banned from food contact in all other food industries for proven reasons that would still apply here to a degree is considered foolish and over the top?
The use of copper in a brewery is FDA approved and has very sound reasoning. This has now been quoted several times in this thread.
Here is an authoritative source if you are looking for one.
http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegu.../ucm189212.htm
Section 4-101.14of the FDA food code.
Please also note in addition to the above information from the FDA the limit for copper in drinking water per the EPA is 1.3 mg/L.
http://www.epa.gov/your-drinking-wat...r-contaminants
So your drinking water can have more copper at 1.3 mg/L than the toxicological limit of yeast at 0.2 mg/L that could be found in unfermented beer.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Neither one of your links are working for me... Using an fda approved plastic cooler is just as safe according to the fda yet so many choose to "eliminate plastic for health concerns " like I said thats generally ok her with people yet this isnt. Because people have seen and noticed more recent discoveries with harmful effects of plastics breaking down. Things like BPA's became known to the average person and the effects of them being ingested was eventually proven after much debate and time. We've seen recent changes to some of the regulations because of it. Many people here are willing to accept another persons choice to question todays latest FDA regulations on it.
And no one is arguing that its not ok in the states according to our FDA's current regulations... That alone isnt the deciding factor on whether it doesnt raise health concerns. Those regulations constantly get tighter and change as time goes on and more is discovered. Contrary to popular belief the science of today isnt at the point where we know and see everything there is to learn... 30 years ago fda regulations allowed non lined copper cookware too... That changed.
If I could have gotten your links to work perhaps I would have learned something. Since I have heard that the yeast consumes a lot of the copper dissolved into the wort and most of that yeast drops out of the beer but can leave detectable flavors from this in the beer.... You would think the same would be true with wine then right? yet the FDA does not allow copper to be used in wine making? This is as good as a place as any to ask and learn why?
Here are the links again... sorry they did not work.
http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/ucm189212.htm
Section 4-101.14 of the FDA food code. Yeast toxicity occurs around 0.2 mg/L. The toxicity of copper to Saccharomyces cerevisiae is very well documented and I would be happy to link many journal articles if you are interested.
Here is the EPA link for drinking water standard stating the limit is 1.3 mg/L Cu2+ in drinking water.
http://www.epa.gov/your-drinking-water/table-regulated-drinking-water-contaminants
Wine is allowed to have the direct addition of copper sulfate to a level of 0.5 mg/L copper when used for hydrogen sulfide removal.
The quantity of copper sulfate added (calculated as copper) must not exceed 6 parts copper per million parts of wine (6.0 mg/L). The residual level of copper in the finished wine must not exceed 0.5 parts per million (0.5 mg/L). 21 CFR 184.1261 (GRAS).
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/24.246
I agree that many limits have been tightened and I often see this, being that my line of work heavily involves both the FDA and EPA. I have very little copper and no brass in my brewery because stainless is superior in so many regards.
I meant accumulation, and was not referring to an acute exposure to lead. similar to mercury accumulation when eating fish. there is a bit of insoluble lead at outer grain of most copper and in interdendritic region. Nonetheless, I don't actually think its a problem, as it is a minuscule amount
skw
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I could use that argument against any single item that touches beer. Is there an unnecessary risk from using cleaning agents? What about chromium in stainless, that's an unknown environmental factor. And what the heck is in the plastic on the inside of bottle caps? Where is the proof that bottle cap plastic does not cause Alzheimer's?
There are actual dangers to health in the beer that we produce. Alcohol. Fusels. Acetaldehyde. If we want to put copper on the list, then measure it - brew with copper, demonstrate that it shows up in dangerous levels in the final product.
For what it's worth, a German home brewer went through the trouble and had his beer analysed by a lab. The beer spent 3 hours of mashing and 90 minutes of boiling in a copper pot, and copper mesh was used as a trub filter:
http://hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?name=eBoard&file=viewthread&tid=20631
Result was 0.92ppm of copper (about half of what the WHO has as limit for drinking water), or in other words, you'd have to drink two pints to get your minimum recommended daily intake of copper or more than two gallons to reach what is considered the safe limit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_in_health#Adults
Some health food web sites even advocate eating copper-rich foods - I know, questionable sources. The University of Maryland, what I would consider a slightly more reputable authority, claims: "Many people do not get enough copper in their diet, but it is rare to be truly deficient in copper.", followed by "Foods that contain copper include oysters, liver, whole grain breads and cereals, shellfish, dark green leafy vegetables, dried legumes, nuts, and chocolate."
http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/copper
Sounds like I can simply compensate for my copper wort chiller by not eating kale or whole grain for every beer I drink. What don't we sacrifice for health.
OP
OP
There is a difference between blind conjecture and evidence based science. We know that Cu, in certain real world applications, has deleterious effects. We know that BPA in plastic is dangerous. We don't know that the plastic in bottle caps causes any impact. Maybe someday evidence tells us otherwise. The point is to address known dangers, not use unknown dangers as an argument to ignore the known ones.
skw
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And the same thing applies to copper. Maybe, someday, evidence.
We agree on the danger of excess copper in your diet. But do we have evidence that merely using a copper chiller actually increases copper levels in beer to dangerous levels - or is that just blind conjecture?
I have plenty of materials touching my food and drink: plastic bottling wand with rubber gasket, dishwasher soap, teflon, cast iron and aluminum cooking ware, plastic cups, paper cups, vacuum sealed plastic hops packaging, oil residue on malt mills, etc. I have no idea what material the water pipes inside the walls of the house I bought are, and I have even less of an idea what material the pipes outside of my house are. There is plenty of room for concern. I'd focus on the ones that are demonstrated to be present in my beer and proven to be dangerous, because if I don't then I'll only drive myself crazy over all kinds of things that could maybe someday somehow happen - copper just being one of them.
After all, copper is not arsenic or lead - it's not one of those elements where the recommended daily dose is 0. It's something that is present in many foods, and both being too low and too high in copper can be bad for your health. So unless we have numbers of how much there actually is present in beer brewed with copper equipment, we have no clue. And in my previous post, I have provided a link to anecdotal evidence of a home brewer who made extensive use of copper, had his beer tested and it came back in the range of what is being considered safe for drinking water.
And what do we replace copper with? There is nothing proven to be harmless, there are only things without proof of harm. Stainless? Contains nickel, chromium and iron, and those things may or may not leech into food:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1514841
And similar to suspected links between Alzheimer's and aluminum, we have suspected links between Alzheimer's and iron:
http://www.sciencealert.com/high-iron-levels-in-the-brain-hastens-alzheimer-s-disease
Of course we don't assume that iron in a stainless kettle leads to excess iron in beer. Why would we assume that about copper?
So, who's going to send a sample of their water into their brewery and a sample of wort to the FV to Ward Labs to see if there's any measurable amount of copper in the wort? That should resolve whether this is something to worry about.
OP
OP
I think at this point, from what has been posted, the best evidence comes from the FDA guidance, and the bottom line is copper in the wort will kill the yeast before it becomes harmful to the consumer downstream. I would always be conservative with respect to any agency rating though.
Another point that hasn't been brought up is the water used in your beer will play a role. I personally use RO water so I know I am starting with a pretty good foundation, but others may be using crappy water from the start and should consider those implications.
It probably would not be a bad idea to have beer tested. I personally put a few thousand $ into the hobby so far, why not spend a few more to know? Does Ward provide that kind of in depth analysis? If not, who does?
Another point that hasn't been brought up is the water used in your beer will play a role. I personally use RO water so I know I am starting with a pretty good foundation, but others may be using crappy water from the start and should consider those implications.
It probably would not be a bad idea to have beer tested. I personally put a few thousand $ into the hobby so far, why not spend a few more to know? Does Ward provide that kind of in depth analysis? If not, who does?
Ward labs does appear to have the capabilities.
INDIVIDUAL WATER ANALYSIS Copper............................... $6.50
Any environmental testing labs should have the capabilities.
I have the abilities to run the AOAC official method 960.17 Copper in Beer Direct non ashing method. Unfortunately the reagents make this too expensive unless I were to run a lot of analysis.
Turkeyshot
Well-Known Member
If anyone worries about copper poisoning or ill effects of any kind from the use of copper in brewing then there is more for you to worry about. It has already been stated here that your water could be flowing through copper pipes, but if the water is not acidic then not much chance of leaching anything out from the pipes. But what about candy making where they use copper pots for cooking the batches of candy. Could there be a possibility of the high heat leaching anything from the copper. Even some smaller companies that make Belgian Candy Sugar use copper pots, so that would end up in some beers.
What I am getting at here is that the FDA report brought up earlier in this thread shows that the amount of copper that would have to be leached out in the brewing process, is not even enough to kill yeast and is way below a toxic threshold to humans. I personally am not worried about the use of copper at all and have no problem with a copper immersion chiller.
What I am getting at here is that the FDA report brought up earlier in this thread shows that the amount of copper that would have to be leached out in the brewing process, is not even enough to kill yeast and is way below a toxic threshold to humans. I personally am not worried about the use of copper at all and have no problem with a copper immersion chiller.
Even if you were to have the water analyzed it would be hard to contribute the copper content of your beer to only copper hardware pieces.
My municipality has 0.47 ppm copper in the water based on averages measured at peoples taps. I use RO Water so this would be a small fraction compared to the amount in the feed water.
Barley also has measurable amounts of copper. The methods they employed involved ashing followed by mineral analysis. It is hard to correlate the amount in barley to the amount in wort. We do not know what form the copper is in, whether it is water soluble, or whether it is extractable due to physical matrix limitations.
http://www.aaccnet.org/publications/cc/backissues/1975/Documents/chem52_678.pdf
http://www.aaccnet.org/publications/cc/backissues/1974/Documents/Chem51_309.pdf
Hops may also contribute a substantial amount of copper to wort. It appears several broad spectrum fungicides used on hops are copper based.
http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/michigan_hop_update_july_31_2013
All yeast strains produce some amount of hydrogen sulfide. Copper ions react with hydrogen sulfide producing insoluble copper sulfide. I would expect that strains that are known to produce high levels of hydrogen sulfide would decrease the final copper concentration to a greater degree than other strains. I agree copper toxicity is well documented, but I am not going to worry about the small amount in my brewery until new evidence comes to light.
My municipality has 0.47 ppm copper in the water based on averages measured at peoples taps. I use RO Water so this would be a small fraction compared to the amount in the feed water.
Barley also has measurable amounts of copper. The methods they employed involved ashing followed by mineral analysis. It is hard to correlate the amount in barley to the amount in wort. We do not know what form the copper is in, whether it is water soluble, or whether it is extractable due to physical matrix limitations.
http://www.aaccnet.org/publications/cc/backissues/1975/Documents/chem52_678.pdf
http://www.aaccnet.org/publications/cc/backissues/1974/Documents/Chem51_309.pdf
Hops may also contribute a substantial amount of copper to wort. It appears several broad spectrum fungicides used on hops are copper based.
http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/michigan_hop_update_july_31_2013
All yeast strains produce some amount of hydrogen sulfide. Copper ions react with hydrogen sulfide producing insoluble copper sulfide. I would expect that strains that are known to produce high levels of hydrogen sulfide would decrease the final copper concentration to a greater degree than other strains. I agree copper toxicity is well documented, but I am not going to worry about the small amount in my brewery until new evidence comes to light.
UndeadFred
Well-Known Member
I haven't followed this for a couple of days and I see people quoting Mercola as a valid source. Quack Quack. Well I suppose this is not as bad as an Aluminum kettle thread, but, seriously trace amounts of copper, lead and even asbestos are all over the place. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It is amazing that humans made it the last 5000 years with all of this bad stuff.
hunter_le five
Sheriff Underscore
And yet, proper dosage can be healthy for you
Often the difference between medicine and poison is the dose.
Much ado about nothing, I suspect.
OP
OP
Seriously? These are inane comments, like many you have made in this thread. You do know that only a few hundred years ago people only lived to about 35 years old. It's because science, medicine, and learning have taught us otherwise.
Firewalker11
Brewer
Still not sure what all the debate is about. Botulism has killed millions yet is essential to life for some in well placed injections (not cosmetically). Arsenic is essential in foundries and asbestos is still widely used in friction linings.
Like every other water discussion I think the "answer" on whether copper needs removed from your system is system and maybe beer dependent. Send a sample out for analysis, if there is more copper than acceptable for safety it NEEDS to be removed. If there is more copper than acceptable for the style is probably SHOULD be removed.
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