I made a 1.050 og blonde 10 days ago. I am going to make a 1.097 og russian imperial stout this weekend and I was wondering if I should just pitch it onto the existing yeast cake? I know its an overpitch, but would it make a substancial difference in the beer or should I start with fresh yeast? I want to age this thing for at least a year.
should i pitch my ris onto a blonde yeast cake?
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stubbornman
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a good idea to me! :fro:
strat_thru_marshall
Well-Known Member
I'd do it. Some folks will say you should rinse the yeast, use a fresh carboy, and pitch a measure amount of slurry....but on a beer that big you should be just fine pitching directly into the carboy as long as your sanitation was good on the blonde ale.
I pitched a 1.101 RIS onto the cake from a brown ale last Monday and it took off like a rocket.
I pitched a 1.101 RIS onto the cake from a brown ale last Monday and it took off like a rocket.
permo
Well-Known Member
By all means pitch away! Not only do I consider this a good idea, it is my preferred method of making a big RIS or Barley Wine.
I dumped my RIS onto a WLP001 cake @ 1.091. Came out awesome
brown_dog_us
Well-Known Member
Winner.
If you are worried about over pitching or using a "dirty" fermentor, you could always fill a quart jar with the slurry, clean the fermentor, and pitch.
If you are worried about over pitching or using a "dirty" fermentor, you could always fill a quart jar with the slurry, clean the fermentor, and pitch.
kanzimonson
Well-Known Member
In your OP, you admitted it was overpitching. So why would you do something that you essentially have already acknowledged is a negative procedure?
The same way that we fret about the perfect grainbill, carefully time our hop additions, adjust our water salts, and play with our mash ratios, we should apply the same level of meticulous attention to our yeast. Yeast make beer, not you.
It's really not that hard to remove some of the yeast to pitch the proper amount. Even with a 1.100 beer, you only need a few hundred mL of yeast slurry to get the proper pitch rate when the cake is fresh.
The same way that we fret about the perfect grainbill, carefully time our hop additions, adjust our water salts, and play with our mash ratios, we should apply the same level of meticulous attention to our yeast. Yeast make beer, not you.
It's really not that hard to remove some of the yeast to pitch the proper amount. Even with a 1.100 beer, you only need a few hundred mL of yeast slurry to get the proper pitch rate when the cake is fresh.
kanzimonson
Well-Known Member
Every yeast strain has a typical flavor profile, and this profile is based on flavor compounds that are produced in large quantities during the growth phase. When we pitch the recommended amount, you get a yield of the expected flavor profile. If you change that, who knows what you'll get?
People pitch onto yeast cakes all the time on this forum - it's easy and of course it will "work" if you define making beer simply as "converting sugar to alcohol." You'll get your alcoholic liquid.
But I'd rather take my cue from pro breweries, who are obsessed with quality, and always pitch the right amount to get the expected yield from their yeast.
People pitch onto yeast cakes all the time on this forum - it's easy and of course it will "work" if you define making beer simply as "converting sugar to alcohol." You'll get your alcoholic liquid.
But I'd rather take my cue from pro breweries, who are obsessed with quality, and always pitch the right amount to get the expected yield from their yeast.
To be fair, we can estimate a proper amount, but we're having to go by assumptions about the health and number of HEALTHY yeast, not simply the amount of stuff in the bottom. Plus there is who knows what kind of, and how much, trub mixed in.
Many pro brewers can get a pretty good idea on yeast count, but it's not so easy for homebrewers. I think it's much more difficult to overpitch, and get poor results, than it is to underpitch and get poor results.
If you are going from a beer as light as 1.050, and using it to ferment a beer as big as a RIS, I would RDWHAHB and just do it. You may be overpitching by a few billion cells, but unless you can inspect the quality of your yeast, and count it, you just won't know for sure. Not everyone wants to spend extra time doing the minute details.
Many pro brewers can get a pretty good idea on yeast count, but it's not so easy for homebrewers. I think it's much more difficult to overpitch, and get poor results, than it is to underpitch and get poor results.
If you are going from a beer as light as 1.050, and using it to ferment a beer as big as a RIS, I would RDWHAHB and just do it. You may be overpitching by a few billion cells, but unless you can inspect the quality of your yeast, and count it, you just won't know for sure. Not everyone wants to spend extra time doing the minute details.
kanzimonson
Well-Known Member
I agree that perfect pitch rates are much more difficult to estimate on the homebrewing scale. Still, I think when it comes to an entire yeast cake, we can at least just eyeball dumping about half out and still have plenty of yeast. Overpitching by 50% is one thing, but 500% is quite a difference.
stubbornman
Well-Known Member
What differences would you say you have noticed from "overpitched" beers?
Also in an earlier post you mention a yeasts flavor based on what they consumed during the growth phase. Why would yeast flavor be improved from yeast grown on DME (I'm guessing you make traditional starters) as opposed to real wort? Which way do you think the "pros" grow theirs?
kanzimonson
Well-Known Member
My first and only experience with overpitching was when I put a barleywine on a yeast cake from an American wheat. I specifically made the wheat so I could pitch a big beer on top, and I selected my yeast strain for alcohol tolerance alone... which led me to pick Wyeast 1762 Belgian Abbey 2 (the Rochefort strain). For those who have used this strain, you know it's incredibly estery with a lot of fruity flavors - bananas, cherries, maybe some mango, and a little bit of spice.
Well when the barleywine was done, it was so bland in the ester department, and I now attribute this to the fact that I overpitched it by about 500%. The idea is this - because you're adding such a large number of cells to the beer, the yeast have to do very little reproducing. As I mentioned, reproduction is where a lot of the flavor compounds are developed.
As for your question about growth, there's a little confusion... I'm not talking about the growth that a starter accomplishes before you pitch. I'm talking about the growth that occurs once the yeast is pitched into the beer. When you pitch proper amounts, you can expect the yeast to go through about 3 doublings in population size (I believe). This reproduction is an important part to making beer taste like beer.
Well when the barleywine was done, it was so bland in the ester department, and I now attribute this to the fact that I overpitched it by about 500%. The idea is this - because you're adding such a large number of cells to the beer, the yeast have to do very little reproducing. As I mentioned, reproduction is where a lot of the flavor compounds are developed.
As for your question about growth, there's a little confusion... I'm not talking about the growth that a starter accomplishes before you pitch. I'm talking about the growth that occurs once the yeast is pitched into the beer. When you pitch proper amounts, you can expect the yeast to go through about 3 doublings in population size (I believe). This reproduction is an important part to making beer taste like beer.
stubbornman
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the fast response and sorry for any confusion on my part.
Cheers.
Cheers.
kanzimonson
Well-Known Member
My pleasure to help. I consider yeast to be the most important ingredient in beer, and therefore pitching onto a whole cake is one of the worst sins a homebrewer can make. My brewing dramatically improved once I started putting everything into the perspective of "how healthy are my yeast?" That means proper pitch rates, pitch temp, oxygen supply, nutrients, and fermentation temp. Amazing difference. When you do this, you can practically throw any ingredient into the brew kettle and it'll turn out at least drinkable but usually it's something much better.
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