making a starter from saved yeast cake

[odie]

I have lots of saved yeast cake from assorted beers that I have been doing direct pitches (roughly half cup of pure yeast cake) with and not had issues.

That said, I am planning to use some belle saison cake to attept to restart an RIS that has stopped far short of expectations.

I'm thinking a starter and not a direct pitch would be the best method in this case.

Never having done a starter, I have read where I should use 10-1 ratio water and DME. 1000ml to 100 grams.

The picture is my typical yeast cakes saved in half pint jars. Should I use the whole cake you see in a jar or just scoop out a tablespoon or whatever amount to make a starter to warm the yeast up for duty?

 

[IslandLizard]

Resurrecting a semi-stalled or under-attenuated beer is always a challenge. As long as you know there are still fermentable sugars available, it's worth the effort. The main issue is pitching the new yeast into a hostile environment of high alcohol. So a BIG pitch is needed.

What's the volume of that RIS? What are the OG, projected FG, and current gravity?

Never having done a starter, I have read where I should use 10-1 ratio water and DME. 1000ml to 100 grams.

That's correct! It should yield a starter wort gravity of 1.037.
1.040 is very acceptable too.

The picture is my typical yeast cakes saved in half pint jars. Should I use the whole cake you see in a jar

Yes, you need to pitch a "ton" of healthy, vital yeast. Depending on the volume and gravity of your RIS, you may need to use 2 jars, each around 4 oz each.
Do you have a stir plate?

 

[IslandLizard]

BTW, how old is that yeast in those jars?

 

[odie]

OG 1.130 stuck at 1.050. expecting around 1.030

the yeast in jars is a few weeks old. Some jars have been stored over a year and made beer just fine.

not sure how much fermentable sugars remain. But have been told belle saison will eat practically anything remotely fermentable.

 

[IslandLizard]

OG 1.130 stuck at 1.050. expecting around 1.030

She may be done, depending on your recipe, mash temps, etc.

The beer is at 10.5% ABV now, Belle Saison can go to 15%, so it's worth a try.

not sure how much fermentable sugars remain. But have been told belle saison will eat practically anything remotely fermentable.

Belle is diastatic, so she can break down dextrins into fermentables. That is, as long as she can survive the medium she's being pitched into.

I'd warm the RIS up to mid or even high 70s when re-pitching. You'd pitch the whole starter while it's actively fermenting, no cold crashing.

Is this a 5 gallon batch or 10?
Do you have a stir plate, 2 liter flask?

 

[mac_1103]

Yes, you need to pitch a "ton" of healthy, vital yeast. Depending on the volume and gravity of your RIS, you may need to use 2 jars, each around 4 oz each.

I can see why he should pitch a big healthy starter into the stalled fermentation, but why would he need to use more yeast to make the starter? How does using more improve the vitality of the starter? I mean, there's nothing about the starter wort that should be hostile, is there?

 

[odie]

5 gal. no stir plate. have flasks

 

[IslandLizard]

I can see why he should pitch a big healthy starter into the stalled fermentation, but why would he need to use more yeast to make the starter? How does using more improve the vitality of the starter? I mean, there's nothing about the starter wort that should be hostile, is there?

An extra large repitch is needed/advised because the stuck batch at 10% ABV will kill part of it, while it won't be able to grow/multiply anymore once pitched, due to lack of oxygen and simple sugars.

The OP could add glucoamylase to the stuck batch while he's making the Belle starters to help break down those dextrins ahead of time. That's what I would do.

 

[IslandLizard]

5 gal. no stir plate. have flasks

Make s-n-s starters. You could use 1- to 2-gallon jugs with a screw caps, filled half-way. They're easier to shake than a flask with an open top. The essence is to add oxygen to the yeast starter to re-vitalize the previously stored yeast, preparing her for the big job.

If you have access to oxygen use that instead of air.

 

[mac_1103]

An extra large repitch is needed/advised because the stuck batch at 10% ABV will kill part of it, while it won't be able to grow/multiply anymore once pitched, due to lack of oxygen and simple sugars.

Yeah I get that he's going to want to make a big starter to pitch into the stuck fermentation. I'm still not seeing how a big pitch into the starter helps, especially if the starter isn't big enough.

 

[odie]

The OP could add glucoamylase to the stuck batch while he's making the Belle starters to help break down those dextrins ahead of time. That's what I would do.

what is that stuff? and where can it be found? health food stores? how much?

 

[mac_1103]

Glucoamylase hydrolyzes short chain dextrins into fermentable sugars. It's what makes diastatic yeast diastatic. Here is one option.

 

[odie]

LHBS section of the local liquor store is liquidating due to death of the guy running it. He had almost everything. I'll check for this stuff.

 

[day_trippr]

I'd be cautious about using Glucoamylase as it doesn't seem to have an "Off Switch" and will just munch away forever until there's nothing left to munch. I recently brewed another batch of my 1.107 OG imperial chocolate stout and had a quart and a half left over after kegging. For grins I stuck it in a growler and added a half teaspoon of Glucoamylase to see what would happen. The Gluco took what was a respectable 1.025 FG down to a boozy 1.003 at last measure and it's still working at it...

Cheers!

 

[mac_1103]

I'd be cautious about using Glucoamylase as it doesn't seem to have an "Off Switch" and will just munch away forever until there's nothing left to munch.

The only way I can think of to turn it off would be to heat inactivate it. Which takes something around 70C/160F if my quick google search is to be believed.

 

[odie]

I'll just stick with a belle saison starter.

the LHBS has white labs super high OG yeast on hand as well.

 

[jsphlynch]

I'll just stick with a belle saison starter.

the LHBS has white labs super high OG yeast on hand as well.

What yeast strain was already pitched into this RIS to get it down to 1.050?

I assume the white labs yeast at your LHBS is WLP099; there is conflicting information about whether or not that strain is diastatic, so depending on what the reason is for your ferment stopping (yeast tuckered out vs ran out of simple sugars), that yeast may not help.

 

[odie]

I pitched US-05. I've used this before and gotten to 13.5% on the same basic recipe. Slight variation batch to batch.

This one was the highest OG I've even had, 1.130 Usually it's around 1.11x but will drop to 1.030 +/- range typically.

 

[jsphlynch]

I pitched US-05. I've used this before and gotten to 13.5% on the same basic recipe. Slight variation batch to batch.

This one was the highest OG I've even had, 1.130 Usually it's around 1.11x but will drop to 1.030 +/- range typically.

Do you have any ideas why OG was so much higher this time? Is there any chance the scale in your hydrometer slipped? I'm just noticing that you usually experience about an 80-point drop during fermentation, and this time you still observed an 80-point drop.

 

[odie]

Do you have any ideas why OG was so much higher this time? Is there any chance the scale in your hydrometer slipped? I'm just noticing that you usually experience about an 80-point drop during fermentation, and this time you still observed an 80-point drop.

improved system efficiency. All my recipes I've been dialing back grain bills.

But I figured high OG meant more sugars captured to ferment this time. So expected a bigger drop.

recipe does have lots of very dark malts, which are not very fermentable and also lactose and cacao...but 50 points worth???

still, like around 20# of good fermentable grains and 2# pure maple syrup.

 

[jsphlynch]

improved system efficiency. All my recipes I've been dialing back grain bills.

But I figured high OG meant more sugars captured to ferment this time. So expected a bigger drop.

Makes sense. If you didn't have a reason to expect higher efficiency, I would have leaned more toward erroneous readings rather than an actual high OG, but sounds like you have a reasonable justification for overshooting your gravity.

recipe does have lots of very dark malts, which are not very fermentable and also lactose and cacao...but 50 points worth???

I'd expect to see a similar apparent attenuation as previously, assuming you had the same level of dark malts and lactose as previous iterations and good mash temp control, so yeah 50 points seems excessive. Also makes sense that US-05 might not be up to challenge of the higher gravity wort since manufacturer says it has an alcohol tolerance of 9-11% ABV (I know from experience that's a pretty conservative estimate, but keep in mind that you also gave the yeast a pretty substantial osmotic shock by dropping them in a high gravity wort so that might bite into their ability to perform as expected). If that's the case, you probably have unfermented fermentable sugars left and don't need to rely on a diastatic yeast or enzymes to drop the gravity further, you just need a bunch of robust, alcohol tolerant yeast. Make the starter and pitch the whole thing at high krausen.

 

[odie]

started my starter...how does it look? 1000ml and 100 grams light DME with a quick boil. Split into two mason jars.

Belle Saison yeast cake. A couple heaping spoon fulls went into each jar Wednesday evening. Looks like this Thursday morning.

I forgot yeast nutrient. Can I add later today when I get home?

How long should the starter go before it's ready to pitch?

Should I wait for the starter to finish and yeast drop, then decant the wort and pitch fresh yeast slurry?

Or pitch entire jar while the yeast is still working on the starter wort?

 

[RM-MN]

I forgot yeast nutrient. Can I add later today when I get home?

How long should the starter go before it's ready to pitch?

Should I wait for the starter to finish and yeast drop, then decant the wort and pitch fresh yeast slurry?

Or pitch entire jar while the yeast is still working on the starter wort?

Yeast nutrient is really only necessary for making wine as the fruit juice is lacking the free amino nutrient that beer would naturally have.

Let the starter go until:
1. the fermentation is complete and the yeast has settled so you can pour off the beer and just pitch the yeast slurry.
2. at high krausen when the yeast is most active.
Which of these you choose depends on how big of a batch you have compared to the size of the jar of starter. The starter itself won't taste the best as you are keeping it at a warmer temperature than optimal for making beer but if it is a small amount compared to the entire batch (0ne quart in 5 gallons isn't a huge amount).

 

[odie]

well crap...

I didn't get an answer before I left work yesterday.

Got home and pitched the whole jar while it was active, or appeared to be. one in each keg. I have 2 high OG beers that I believe are stalled.

Hope the yeast got started enough to continue.

 

[T Murph]

RDWHAHB if each vessels temperature were relatively close you should be good. Expect it to take a couple of days as you just threw the rescue squad into a house on fire.

 

[odie]

One beer keg I think is going again. The pressure gauge slowly keeps rising so that indicates CO2 production. It had been stable for a long time.

The other keg, the RIS I'm more concerned with...haven't seen any needle movement yet.

will take gravity readings in a week or so and see if there is really any movement.

 

[odie]

been a few days or so...

Both beers seem to have dropped a couple/few more points.

Will wait it out a bit more.