Severe effects of Oxidation?

[Valcarde]

I bottled my Raspberry Wheat beer over this weekend, and I think I may have run into a problem.

Primary ferment went fine. Racked onto a secondary with 2lbs of fresh raspberries, left it for 6 days. OG didn't change at all for the last 3 days, bottled on Saturday. This is where the problems started...

Racking to bottling bucket, the racking cane was getting clogged with raspberry seeds. I tried tying a bit of sanitized cheesecloth over the end to filter the raspberry bits; still got clogged after every few moments of racking. After many failed attempts, I wound up having to pour gently from the carboy into a filtered (by cheesecloth) funnel...

So, the question being, how big is the possibility of bad oxidation? If so, how long does it take for oxidation to ruin a beer? Drink it fast, or give it the 'should be better later' long stay in a bottle?

 

[phatuna]

I've heard a lot of talk here about oxidation but have never heard any homebrewer ever encountering it. You'll be fine

 

[BrookdaleBrew]

I've heard a lot of talk here about oxidation but have never heard any homebrewer ever encountering it. You'll be fine

Want to taste my first batch? I actually still have one bottle left at the back of my fridge, which I cannot bring myself to drink because it is so badly oxidized, hahahaha.

I think the OP definitely runs the risk, but I wouldn't worry until you taste it! In some beers, a bit of oxidation is actually desirable.

 

[smizak]

I've heard a lot of talk here about oxidation but have never heard any homebrewer ever encountering it. You'll be fine

I had an Irish Red that went bad because of oxidation. Musty, cardboard, stale odor and flavor. It took a couple of months before it showed up though. Had some air leaking in my bottling wand.

My advice to the OP is to have a party, drink it fast, then re-brew!

 

[Edcculus]

If you introduced oxygen, "drink it fast" is probably a good rule of thumb. You won't see bad effects of oxidation in the short term. Put some age, probably 6+ months on the bottles and you would probably start to notice the oxidation. Once the beer is bottled and carbed it would be a good idea to get it all into a refrigerator. Since oxidaton chemical reactions happen 2x faster for every 10C increase in temp, getting them as cool as possible will seriously slow down oxidation reactions.

While what you did wasn't the best for the beer, you sometime just have to "do what you have to do" to get the job done. I had to stick my arm in the bottling bucket one time to tighten the spigot.

phatuna - yes, oxidation is absolutely a concern to homebrewers. It sometimes tends to show less often since our beer isn't put on hot trucks, shipped across the country, put in hot warehouses etc. It can and does happen though.

 

[stageseven]

If it's a wheat beer, you'll want to drink it young anyway. Give it a couple weeks to carb up, and try it out. You'll probably have at least a couple months before you start to notice any off flavors. I just recently opened a bottle of one of the first batches I did that was over a year old, and it had just started to develop some stale/cardboard flavors. I'm sure you'll be fine as long as you don't keep the batch around for 6+ months.

 

[hobohrau]

My first batch I oxidized the living crap out of it (i.e. I didn't have siphoning equipment so I bottled using a ladle and a funnel). And it took me about a month or so to drink the beer.

One bottle seemed to go bad after about a month, but the others were all great. I'm still a newbie but I think as long as you drink it in a reasonable time frame you'll be fine.

Edit: Also I must note that the one bottle that went bad was a plastic water bottle -- everything that was in glass would have probably lasted for a while longer.

 

[Valcarde]

Looks like I'll just have to give it 2-3 weeks to carb, and get to drinkin'.

 

[Revvy]

It takes a lot of splashing to do any damage, someone on basic brewing years ago, (Palmer, or Chris Colby of BYO) said that in order to truly provide enough O2 to oxydize our beers it would take pumping an entire one of our red oxygen bottle/airstones into our beer AFTER fermentation is complete.

Most of the splashing intentional or accidental that we do in the course of our brewing will not harm it...

That doesn't mean you want to dump your carboy into the bottling bucket, or do other careless things. You still want to be gentle when moving your beer from vessel to vessel.

BUT it does mean that if we spalsh, or have to use our autosiphon to pump our beer is something goes wrong, that we don't need to panic about it.

I've had all sorts of problems, like bottling a blond ale with peaches in it,that kept jamming the bottling wand and auto siphon, and the beer's still turned out just fine.

And beside Oxygenation damage isn't immediate anyway, most of us would have our beer drunk long before it would happen.
I had some major f-ups with bottling on occasion and still haven't oxydized a batch.

I would just rdwhahb while you read this thread written just for you...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/wh...where-your-beer-still-turned-out-great-96780/

 

[Valcarde]

It takes a lot of splashing to do any damage, someone on basic brewing years ago, (Palmer, or Chris Colby of BYO) said that in order to truly provide enough O2 to oxydize our beers it would take pumping an entire one of our red oxygen bottle/airstones into our beer AFTER fermentation is complete.

Most of the splashing intentional or accidental that we do in the course of our brewing will not harm it...

That doesn't mean you want to dump your carboy into the bottling bucket, or do other careless things. You still want to be gentle when moving your beer from vessel to vessel.

BUT it does mean that if we spalsh, or have to use our autosiphon to pump our beer is something goes wrong, that we don't need to panic about it.

I've had all sorts of problems, like bottling a blond ale with peaches in it,that kept jamming the bottling wand and auto siphon, and the beer's still turned out just fine.

And beside Oxygenation damage isn't immediate anyway, most of us would have our beer drunk long before it would happen.
I had some major f-ups with bottling on occasion and still haven't oxydized a batch.

I would just rdwhahb while you read this thread written just for you...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/wh...where-your-beer-still-turned-out-great-96780/

I figured I'd get a Revvy post

I've read that thread a number of times already, so I guess I was more curious then I was really worried. Either way, I think the next time I make this beer, I'm going to put the raspberries in a thin layer of sanitized cheesecloth to make the removal that much easier; reach in with sterilized tongs, grab bag, pull out!

 

[Justibone]

+1 on the mesh bag idea.

Hops, grains, hair clumps from the shower drain... if you want to put it in your beer, I'd say put it in a mesh bag first. That's my $.02, for what it's worth.

 

[PhilOssiferzStone]

/raises hand

Newbie here. Just finished racking my first brew -- a Belgian dubbel. Didn't *have* a siphon tube, so I just turned the spigot and let it drain into the second bucket over a period of several minutes, measured the gravity, put new water into the airlock, and set it back in my plastic tubbie full of cool water. Then I wash my hands and sterilize everything and come back in the house and read.....

...this. The beer had enough white foam on top I had trouble clearing a spot for my gravity thermometer. Joy.

How bad a trouble am I in?

 

[smizak]

Hard to say. Bottle conditioning can remove some of the oxygen. I know there are some contrasting opinions on this forum, but any experienced beer judge will tell you that the number one difference between home brewed beer and commercial is oxidation.

 

[Yooper]

Hard to say. Bottle conditioning can remove some of the oxygen. I know there are some contrasting opinions on this forum, but any experienced beer judge will tell you that the number one difference between home brewed beer and commercial is oxidation.

Yeah, I agree. I taste oxidation in many of the beers I've judged. Not bad, but definitely there. Early oxidation exhibits a weird metallic sensation on the sides of the tongue. Not cardboard or sherry, like severely oxidized beer, but a definitely flavor that is oxidation and shouldn't be there.

How much splashing is too much? Well, any splashing really. Winemakers use sulfites to bind to the wine so that o2 can't, during racking. But with beer, it tends to be more forgiving, partly because you don't age it as long as wine. It can still be there, but not as noticeable in early stages.

If you aerated enough to get foam, I'd bottle sooner rather than later and drink it quickly. It will NOT improve. Also, doing a secondary in another bucket increases the headspace so you've got that going against you as well. I don't do many secondaries, but if I do, I use a carboy.

 

[smizak]

Yeah, I agree. I taste oxidation in many of the beers I've judged. Not bad, but definitely there. Early oxidation exhibits a weird metallic sensation on the sides of the tongue. Not cardboard or sherry, like severely oxidized beer, but a definitely flavor that is oxidation and shouldn't be there.

Precisely.

I've oft wondered if the "twang" a lot of brewers describe is oxidation. I would describe it as oddly sweet.

 

[smizak]

/raises hand

Newbie here. Just finished racking my first brew -- a Belgian dubbel. Didn't *have* a siphon tube, so I just turned the spigot and let it drain into the second bucket over a period of several minutes, measured the gravity, put new water into the airlock, and set it back in my plastic tubbie full of cool water. Then I wash my hands and sterilize everything and come back in the house and read.....

...this. The beer had enough white foam on top I had trouble clearing a spot for my gravity thermometer. Joy.

How bad a trouble am I in?

On second thought, if you don't mind an ABV bump, you could put a 1/2 lb of sugar in it. Might thin it out a little as well, but the secondary fermentation could scrub the O2 out.

 

[PhilOssiferzStone]

On second thought, if you don't mind an ABV bump, you could put a 1/2 lb of sugar in it. Might thin it out a little as well, but the secondary fermentation could scrub the O2 out.

It's a Trappist ale -- I'm using the kit from Williams, and it recommended racking it onto a secondary -- so I don't think a bit more alcohol will harm anything. Directions on the back of the box say to give it another 12 days before checking the gravity again. How much longer would ti take for the little yeasties to devour the fresh sugar?

 

[smizak]

Don't know, yeast cell count dependent. Stable hydrometer reading over a couple of days will tell. 12 days is a good time table. Take a reading on day 9 and day 12. If the same, and obviously less than day 1, bottle.

 

[Ziggybrew]

clever idea. It never would have crossed my mnd to throw in some dextrose to make the yeast use up some O2. HBT is lke a brewing university where the professors outnumber the students

 

[PhilOssiferzStone]

/wrestles with the idea of exposing his firstborn brew to the open air again and performing terminal sugar-related experiments on it

Thanks for the advice, gents, and I'm certain you're correct.... but I think I'll just let it go the recommended distance and bottle it up and hope for the best. If it comes out a bit off, it's a lesson learned.

Long as I'm on the subject: Terminal gravity for this kit is supposed to be 1.016 or less. When I took it yesterday, the gravity was 1.025. The first three days I had the brew in the garage, it got up into the low 80's before I stuck it in a plastic tubbie full of nice cool water. Could that have driven the gravity up a bit? Or will it still diminish a bit over the next two weeks in the secondary?

 

[IceFisherChris]

Wait and see. That is the ONLY true answer. Some people here are going to say you'll ruin your beer. Others will say that absolutely nothing will happen.

 

[scrambledegg81]

Wait and see. That is the ONLY true answer. Some people here are going to say you'll ruin your beer. Others will say that absolutely nothing will happen.

Would have to say otherwise. I had a vanilla stout go south (oxidize) sometime during bottling. The first 2 weeks after bottling it was somewhat drinkable, with a mild musty scent, but after that point, it literally tasted like an over-aged Zinfandel. Musty, old, and extremely dry. Even after letting 2 sixers age for about 3 months, it was just as bad.

 

[Number68]

having only one batch under my belt, I don't have much to say on this subject, other than my racking cane was leaking somewhere, so every couple of bottles I filled got a nice shot of air bubbles through them. I didn't notice any ill effects from it, but who's to say they weren't there. those were probably the bottles I drank after a long night of sampling my friends hb's

 

[Justibone]

Long as I'm on the subject: Terminal gravity for this kit is supposed to be 1.016 or less. When I took it yesterday, the gravity was 1.025. The first three days I had the brew in the garage, it got up into the low 80's before I stuck it in a plastic tubbie full of nice cool water. Could that have driven the gravity up a bit? Or will it still diminish a bit over the next two weeks in the secondary?

If you are sure you didn't have a mis-reading...

Then your yeast puttered out -- .009 is a bit too much of a difference to let slide, IMO. You can pitch more yeast in there, or you can try to get the ones that are already there to buck up and finish the job.

Swirling the bucket gently (not vigorously -- that's asking for oxidation) can sometimes get the yeast back to work. Also, degassing (stirring to remove the CO2 bubbles) could do it. Adding a bit of yeast energizer has a shot, but my first inclination would be to let your beer warm up to about 70-72F in case too low of temperatures were getting your li'l fellas down.

My $.02

 

[PhilOssiferzStone]

my first inclination would be to let your beer warm up to about 70-72F in case too low of temperatures were getting your li'l fellas down.

70 degrees is as low as I've been able to get it, is the thing. And that's the temp of the water in the tubbie. The temp inside the bucket will undoubtedly be a bit higher. When I racked it onto my secondary there was a thick sludgey crust all around the top and a thick layer of sediment in the bottom. I never noticed much in the way of bubbles in the airlock, but those first few days I could dimly see about an inch of off-color foam sitting on top of the brew. So I know the yeast was going like gangbusters at one point.

I'll just wait and see, and take another reading in a couple days.

 

[Justibone]

You should try degassing, then -- as long as you don't oxidize the beer, of course.

 

[carnevoodoo]

I've heard a lot of talk here about oxidation but have never heard any homebrewer ever encountering it. You'll be fine

You are probably thinking of hot side aeration, which is much more difficult to quantify. Oxidation is present is a strong majority of beer over time, and is very noticeable even in a ton of commercial examples that are aged.

It takes a lot of splashing to do any damage, someone on basic brewing years ago, (Palmer, or Chris Colby of BYO) said that in order to truly provide enough O2 to oxydize our beers it would take pumping an entire one of our red oxygen bottle/airstones into our beer AFTER fermentation is complete.

Most of the splashing intentional or accidental that we do in the course of our brewing will not harm it...

I fully disagree with this. On a bigger scale, the efforts to minimize oxygen uptake are insane. After a month, I'm betting you will show signs with this beer. If you drink it fast, you'll be ok. Never let your beer aerate after it is fermented. It is bad for it.

/raises hand

Newbie here. Just finished racking my first brew -- a Belgian dubbel. Didn't *have* a siphon tube, so I just turned the spigot and let it drain into the second bucket over a period of several minutes, measured the gravity, put new water into the airlock, and set it back in my plastic tubbie full of cool water. Then I wash my hands and sterilize everything and come back in the house and read.....

...this. The beer had enough white foam on top I had trouble clearing a spot for my gravity thermometer. Joy.

How bad a trouble am I in?

You're not in trouble, but this is not a beer you'll want to age.

On second thought, if you don't mind an ABV bump, you could put a 1/2 lb of sugar in it. Might thin it out a little as well, but the secondary fermentation could scrub the O2 out.

That's not really how oxidation works, or yeast for that matter. The yeast use the o2 in the growth phase. If you dump more sugar into a batch with a large yeast cake, it will just start converting it and the oxygen uptake will be fairly minimal. This is not the way to save your beer.

Wait and see. That is the ONLY true answer. Some people here are going to say you'll ruin your beer. Others will say that absolutely nothing will happen.

Anyone who says absolutely nothing will happen is wrong. Your beer will be fine for a while, and you might have a low threshold for these off flavors, but they will be effected negatively. You just do your best to not have this sort of thing happen again and you learn from it!

 

[smizak]

That's not really how oxidation works, or yeast for that matter. The yeast use the o2 in the growth phase. If you dump more sugar into a batch with a large yeast cake, it will just start converting it and the oxygen uptake will be fairly minimal. This is not the way to save your beer.

He already racked to secondary. If he aerated at all, there will be yeast growth.

 

[Justibone]

Can metabisulfite drive out the oxygen if you accidentally (or unknowingly, in the case of newer newbies) aerate a beer you wanted to age?

 

[Yooper]

Can metabisulfite drive out the oxygen if you accidentally (or unknowingly, in the case of newer newbies) aerate a beer you wanted to age?

Well, in wine it works because the k-meta "binds" with the wine so that it can'd bind with oxygen. BUT, I always rack the wine into the sulfites gently anyway. I'm not sure that if the O2 is already bound to the wine that the sulfites can kick it off, so to speak. With beer, I'm even less sure. My instinct is to say that adding sulfites after the fact is like closing the barn door after the horse is out. No real scientific backing, though, just my thoughts. Another thought- if sulfites worked to prevent oxidation post-aeration in beer, why don't breweries do that? I've had oxidation tastes in commercial beer, too, just not as often.

 

[remilard]

Another thought- if sulfites worked to prevent oxidation post-aeration in beer, why don't breweries do that? I've had oxidation tastes in commercial beer, too, just not as often.

According to Bamforth, because they don't want to disclose that they used it as the law would require. Beer drinkers are less tolerant of additives than wine drinkers.

Another problem is that yeast will reduce sulfite to hydrogen sulfide (eg rotten egg aroma). I assume this doesn't happen in wine because there is very little yeast after successive rackings and wine is generally less reductive than beer.

As for oxidation being a problem in homebrew. I would say a third of the homebrew I judge has unpleasant/unintended oxidation. It is by far the most common flaw. Presumably people send beers to competitions that they think are good, so this leads me to believe that homebrewers are not good at detecting oxidation in general.

 

[Ziggybrew]

I want to learn how to taste oxidation. Does all oxidation taste the same? If so, could I intentionaly oxidize a few bottles to experience the flavor? How does a judge learn to detect the taste? (Pretend that is just one question LOL)

 

[Justibone]

You could pour a bit of your next brew into a small container (maybe a baby food jar?) and then intentionally oxidize that and bottle as normal. Mark it, of course, and when it and the other beers are done, do a triangle test to be able to really, really tell the difference.

 

[smizak]

I want to learn how to taste oxidation. Does all oxidation taste the same? If so, could I intentionaly oxidize a few bottles to experience the flavor? How does a judge learn to detect the taste? (Pretend that is just one question LOL)

Buy a six of SNPA. Open three bottles, give them a second in the air, then recap. Store them warm. Store the other three cold. Taste one against the other once a week.

 

[dogma9]

what about after you cap the bottle and then shake the bottle? the headspace of air enough to oxidize that bottle or is it good to aerate to get the yeasties eating the sugar up, kinda like the last aeration we give before we pitch the yeast?

 

[Ziggybrew]

what about after you cap the bottle and then shake the bottle? the headspace of air enough to oxidize that bottle or is it good to aerate to get the yeasties eating the sugar up, kinda like the last aeration we give before we pitch the yeast?

It is not nessessary and may even have a negative impact.

I think the best rule of thumb is that once your beer enters full attenuatve fermentation mode -- keep O2 out of it as muh as possible, especialy when it reaches the conditoning phase.

Here s a free online book by one guru Palmer http://www.howtobrew.com/

 

[Justibone]

what about after you cap the bottle and then shake the bottle? the headspace of air enough to oxidize that bottle or is it good to aerate to get the yeasties eating the sugar up, kinda like the last aeration we give before we pitch the yeast?

No, you don't want the carbonating yeast to reproduce, you just want them to eat. Oxygen = reproduction.

 

[dogma9]

ah i c, what happens if they reproduce while bottled?

 

[Justibone]

ah i c, what happens if they reproduce while bottled?

Then you get more trub in your bottles.

 

[dogma9]

Then you get more trub in your bottles.

oh that don't bother me, as long as it don't change the flavor from good to nasty then i'm good lol. on my 5 gallon batches i won't have to worry about it, but on my mr beer kit i have to add sugar to each bottle and then shake the bottles to mix the sugar up.

i guess i could siphone out of my mrbeer keg to mix the sugar all at once too ? hmmm lol oh well to late now, maybe my next mrbeer kit i'll do that