Selling Homebrew, Indiana

[zeg]

I'm not a lawyer, but my interpretation is:
pitching yeast = making alcohol.

I think this is correct, in the sense that there is no restriction on selling malt extract or apple juice (aside from general food safety regulations).

However, once the yeast are pitched, the rest of the process would probably be considered as beer manufacturing. That's consistent with the TTB guidelines that say that the BOP should not help with fermentation / bottling.

Just wanted to add that I actually contacted the CA ABC regarding BOP licensing and regulation. [...] It appears that there is NO federal or state law, at least in CA(..your state may vary), that governs BOP's operation. There are guidelines......but my point is that there is a HUGE difference between a law and an agency guideline.

Thanks for getting that information. Based on what's been brought up here, I stand by my original opinion that you probably can't claim that a batch of beer belongs to your buddy simply because you let him pour in the yeast.

With respect to guidelines vs laws, it leaves us in a bit of a bind because there's uncertainty. IMO, it'd be prudent to be at least as conservative as the guidelines, simply because if the (probably unlikely) event of some sort of investigation or prosecution, you'll be in a better position arguing that you made a bona fide effort to comply with the best available information. It's no guarantee, but at the least you won't be starting off by digging yourself a deeper hole.

It's unfortunate that there's not more clarity on this issue. I can just imagine a perfect storm of misunderstandings where a get-together brew session in which everyone is honestly making their own batch winds up turning into a huge nightmare. On one hand, part of the reason it's hard to find solid answers is that homebrewers so rarely have legal troubles. On the other, it means we really don't know what we can count on if someone decides we're up to something nefarious...

Anyway, thanks, my curiosity is satisfied. I don't think, on a practical level, any of us is very likely to have legal problems, but I think it's important to find out everything we can just in case.

 

[Yooper]

In some states, legislation has been changed recently on homebrewing due to the vagueness of the laws and people wanted clarity.

As two examples, Oregon and Wisconsin.

In Wisconsin, "homebrew" was so narrowly defined by some lawmakers in their minds that it meant that "homebrew" couldn't be consumed outside of your home. That meant you couldn't take it anywhere, like even to a competition. They made a new law for the Wisconsin State Fair that allowed homebrew to be brought for the competition, but then went back last fall and wrote a law allowing homebrew to leave the person's home for certain events.

That would mean of course that no BOP would be allowed before then (I'm not sure it is, even now) because you'd be transporting "home"brew which is only allowed to be made and consumed in the brewer's own home! You couldn't legally take your homebrew to a friend's, to your own campsite, or to your boat. It was supposed to be consumed in the home, according to those that interpret the law.

In Oregon, they had something similar happen a couple of years ago. Denny would be the one who knows the details on that, but it took the AHA and other supporters to clarify some legislation on their state level.

So even if BOPs are allowed in California, they may not be in Wisconsin.

Another interesting thing- in Minnesota about a year ago they made a new law allowing "basement breweries", where you CAN sell homebrew in a certain small amount with that license. I don't know the details, but it is a clearly defined place with a clearly defined amount, and the license states that.

And of course in a couple of states, homebrewing itself is still illegal!

That's one reason we we never encourage anyway to "go ahead and put out a tip jar, no one will know" (wink, wink) or to be "clever" and say "They aren't buying beer- they are buying cups!". First, the enforcers of the law aren't mentally handicapped and won't believe your BS, and also we don't want to make it harder for homebrewing to become more accepted and legal everywhere.

Homebrewers already can have negative connotations out in the regular world, as moonshiners or bootleggers. Let's change that by obeying the laws, encouraging others to obey the laws, and bring changes that need to be made by looking professional and legitimate. The Buffalo Wild Wings ad is an example of the perceptions of homebrewers to some. Let's not encourage that picture in people's minds.

Many people find out I brew and ask me, "Is it safe? Can you go blind? How's it taste?". I'd rather they ask me, "Is your beer better than Summit's?"

 

[Chriso]

This entire discussion is precisely why I will not "take requests" and produce batches of beer intended specifically for a friend based on "what they want". (Perhaps with the exception of my mother. I'll take a request from her. After all, I sort of owe her, for the whole bringing-me-into-this-world thing.)

What I WILL DO, however, is tell that person what ingredients need to be purchased, and invite them over to brew beer under my guidance and using my equipment. Then there is no real question that THEY were involved in the brewing process, that THEY are brewing beer for themselves, even if it happens to occur under my tutelage or at my location.

Anything less crystal-clear than that, and I just really don't want to take the risks... I brew for the taps on my fridge in the basement, not to impress other people.

 

[libeerty]

Just wanted to add that I actually contacted the CA ABC regarding BOP licensing and regulation. Here is their response:
Some Brew On Premise (“BOP&rdquo businesses are licensed by our Department and some do not hold licenses. It depends on what the owner of the BOP intends to do. For instance, if the BOP owner merely rents space and equipment to adult persons who proceed to manufacture their own beer (similar to brewing beer at home) and also sells ingredients, bottles, caps, etc. then no ABC license is required. Generally, the BOP operator charges a fee for equipment rental and space occupied by the “home brewer.” Unlicensed BOP businesses cannot manufacture their own beer for sale, provide beer samples to customers, or otherwise engage in any activities that would require an ABC license.

That said, many BOP businesses that initially began as unlicensed ventures decided that not having an ABC license was much too restrictive. Therefore, many BOP operators applied for the Type 23 (“Small Beer Manufacturer&rdquo license. Although Type 23 licensees may exercise limited retail privileges, the Type 23 is considered to be a “non-retail” license. Here is a link to information about our non-retail licenses: http://www.abc.ca.gov/trade/NRLicPRivs.pdf. First scroll to the Type 01 license and then to the Type 23 license. Both are considered beer manufacturers and the only significant difference is how much beer can be produced annually.

License applications are handled by our local (district) offices. If you decide to apply for a Type 23 license you should contact the district office closest to where you will set up the manufacturing premises. You will find a list of our offices under the “Home” tab on our Web site: www.abc.ca.gov. A program technician or licensing representative in the district office can furnish information about the required forms, fees, etc. as well as answer questions about the licensing process.

It appears that there is NO federal or state law, at least in CA(..your state may vary), that governs BOP's operation. There are guidelines......but my point is that there is a HUGE difference between a law and an agency guideline.

There is absolutely no legal distinction between a law and a regulation. Laws give powers to regulators to create regulations, and they are just as enforceable as laws. A guideline is a different beast, but you are talking about regulations here for sure.

I am an attorney.

 

[Phunhog]

There is absolutely no legal distinction between a law and a regulation. Laws give powers to regulators to create regulations, and they are just as enforceable as laws. A guideline is a different beast, but you are talking about regulations here for sure.

I am an attorney.

Thanks for your response...nice to have someone on board with some legal experience. I understand that law and regulations are the same thing. My question is what is the difference between an agency regulation and an agency guideline? I have briefly looked over the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) which contain the federal laws pertaining to beer in general and homebrewing specifically. I couldn't find any law/regulation pertaining to operating a BOP. What I did find were GUIDELINES published by the TTB regarding operation of a BOP. They contain what a BOP can/can not do. My question is..is a federal agency guideline legally binding?
You can find the link to the TTB FAQ here..http://www.ttb.gov/beer/beer-faqs.shtml#b1.. I am interested to hear your thoughts...