Sell me on a brewing system.

[fishkid]

Sell me on a brewing system.

First a little bit about my current setup, I've been brewing all grain 5 gallon batches for almost two years now using a 10g rubbermaid cooler with a CPVC manifold (upgraded from a SS braid just recently) a 44,000 btu turkey fryer and a 30qt aluminum pot. I also use aluminum 20qt and 12qt stock pots for mashout and sparge water. I either brew out in the backyard or in the garage (depending on the weather) using propane and everything I do is completely manual. During the MI winter, I mash inside, meaning I heat my strike water on the turkey fryer in the garage and when its up to temp I carry the ~175 degree pot of water through the house and into the kitchen where I have the tun waiting. Same for the mashout and sparge water, I'm always carrying around hot pots. When the boil's finished, I carry the 5.75 gallons of 200F+ degree water into the house, down into the basement where I cool it in the utility sink with my IC. I imagine that one of these times I'll trip and drop the pot down the stairs and when this happens instead of crying about the past 3 hours I've just wasted, I'll instead grab the sleeping bag because there's no doubt in my mind I'll be sleeping in the shed that night…but I digress.

Over the past few years I've made a lot of good beer and a few that I won't make again but I'm ready to take the next step in the hobby and purchase a system that will allow better replication of beers and allow me to transition into 10g batches. Just a few weeks ago I purchased an upgrade, a 15.5g Penrose Kettle. I'm planning on using the pot for the first time this weekend. While I'll finally have the room to boil more then 7.5 gallons, I've come to notice that my nice new SS 15.5g pot is pretty darn heavy by itself, I can't imagine what it's going to be like carrying it down the stairs with 5.75 gallons of wort, let alone 10g!

So let's play a game that I know you've seen before, lets say I have $2000 to put towards some new equipment. I've done some reading and evaluating and I like the sound of a new HERMS system with the catch being that I am almost completely electrically ignorant, I mean I've done some wiring to outlets and switches in the house but nothing anywhere near what I've seen inside some of those control boxes. I could probably read up and learn how everything in those control boxes works and what everything does but the fact of the matter is that I like making beer more than I like tinkering with the equipment used to make it. I like the idea of staying with propane but this idea fills my mind with pilot lights an ASCO valves which for the most part I have no idea how to install.

I'm greatly interested in a pump driven system that will allow me to recirculate the mash to maintain a temperature for the duration of the mash period and pump around 10G of liquid without having to pick up and pour 80lb kettles. The B3 1550 and Sabco systems are out of of my price range but I've got this idea of a Blichmann Top Tier with 3 burners and a boilermaker as a mash tun, I'm just not sure what the best way to control this setup would be. I also have my IC which I imagine could double as a heat exchanger? I've got tons of questions, would an electric HLT be best? Could I forego a kettle mash tun and instead recirc through my cooler? Can I control my temps using a couple of rancos?

Anyways, I'd love to hear what you guys think. Possible? Not possible? Stick with my current setup and lift more weights? Purchase a stand from Pinup and learn to wire up my own control box? I'm all ears!

Thanks in advance,

Curt

 

[sammy33]

This is one of the issues I have in terms of different parts of my brewery are in different parts of the house. I am trying to consolidate things so I can do the whole process in one area. I don't have a garage but rather a carport/breezeway with an attached room that is currently crammed full of junk. (looks over shoulder to see if SWMBO is around)

I also have a nice space in the basement that my other hobby currently occupies. This space is much more accessible in terms of plumbing but I would have to clear out some of my other hobby equipment to make room for the brewery. Electric is the only thing that would work down their unless I brew on the back deck (with gas) and then bring the fermenter inside to my ferm fridge.

So I guess what I am recommending is look at how you can consolidate your brewery. Maybe the garage is the best place in your situation? Do you have to have the utility sink to run your chillers or will a garden hose from a supply close to the garage work? Do you have room for the burners/kettles and the fermentation equipment in the garage? Bottling/kegging area?

 

[Photopilot]

I'll star off by saying I really enjoy the wiring, tinkering, inventing side of brewing, so take my advice with a grain of salt. I have built a 3 tier electrical system for about $600. That leaves a lot of money left over for grains compared to buying a pre-built system. My system slowly evolved over time though.

When you start doing 10 gallon batches you need to keep things simpler and in one place. Meaning pumps to move the water and chill in one place. While I can move a mostly full sanke fermenter around the house myself, I would not want to add a potential scalding to the equation. I was uncomfortable moving 1 gallon of scalding water at a time, that's why I bought the pump.

My system does not have herms to it. The only reason I could see the need is step mashing, which could be done via decoction. If you mash in a cooler you will probably only see a degree or two loss over an hour. As I said before I like to tinker but to me a HERM system adds a lot of complexity and cost without much benefit unless you are step mashing.

Just to give you an idea of my system.
Electrically controlled HLT, controlled by an ebay aquarium controller.
Simple cooler MLT
Electric Keggle for boiling controlled by an Auber Instruments PID.

I have a march pump to help move water, and chill.

My advice is to build your own system, keep it simple and add things as you feel they are needed.

 

[Mike_A]

I'm working on a build right now (stay tuned for build thread when its done / almost done) that is: direct fired, 3 vessel (25G each) single tier just like a Brutus. I'll be doing my brewing outside or in my detached garage (w/o plumbing) so I'm trying everything to avoid lifting anything I don't need to. The only things I foresee myself lifting are the 5-7 gallon fermenters (going to split batches into 5 gal containers).

The system including kettles, valves, fittings, tubing, stand, burners, CFC, pumps, propane & propane accessories, mill, kegging supplies (fridge, cornies, CO2) AAAND fermentation vessels is still under my $2000 budget.

I am not very electrically inclined either, which is why I favored a direct-fired approach. Before my setup is even complete I'm already kinda wishing I plumbed it for natural gas or electric, though my house really supports neither - especially for 15+ gallon batches. The best advice I can give is that if you've tolerated your current setup for 2 years, stick with it and slowly build your new system, constantly looking for the best deals on the components you need. Without a lot of luck and some stellar finds, there's no way in hell I would've kept my budget under $2000.

I plan on posting a bill of materials in my build thread, complete with links to places I bought stuff. But if you want, PM me and I'll email you the excel sheet with the full bill of materials (which wont be 100% accurate, but it's a starting point).

 

[fortydegnorth]

Just an option:

http://dayton.craigslist.org/for/2257047462.html

 

[Bentpirate]

I found this little gem on Ebay, plus tons more not pictured... Give it time. This first thing I would suggest is to build / buy a bench and place it where you want. Placement is key and add the parts as you grow. If you want portable, snoop around for a heavy duty utility cart

 

[fishkid]

This is one of the issues I have in terms of different parts of my brewery are in different parts of the house. I am trying to consolidate things so I can do the whole process in one area. I don't have a garage but rather a carport/breezeway with an attached room that is currently crammed full of junk. (looks over shoulder to see if SWMBO is around)

I also have a nice space in the basement that my other hobby currently occupies. This space is much more accessible in terms of plumbing but I would have to clear out some of my other hobby equipment to make room for the brewery. Electric is the only thing that would work down their unless I brew on the back deck (with gas) and then bring the fermenter inside to my ferm fridge.

So I guess what I am recommending is look at how you can consolidate your brewery. Maybe the garage is the best place in your situation? Do you have to have the utility sink to run your chillers or will a garden hose from a supply close to the garage work? Do you have room for the burners/kettles and the fermentation equipment in the garage? Bottling/kegging area?

This is a great thing to think about. Currently I brew out in the garage and ferment in the cool basement. I'm ok with carrying chilled capped wort downstairs so it's looking like I should be consolidating all of the equipment in the garage. My current equipment doesn't allow me to chill outside during the winter, I have the outside hose spigots turned off until spring, if I had a pump I could simply recirculate chilling water through a bucket or something instead of having to rely on the hose.

Thanks for the response!

 

[fishkid]

I'll star off by saying I really enjoy the wiring, tinkering, inventing side of brewing, so take my advice with a grain of salt. I have built a 3 tier electrical system for about $600. That leaves a lot of money left over for grains compared to buying a pre-built system. My system slowly evolved over time though.

When you start doing 10 gallon batches you need to keep things simpler and in one place. Meaning pumps to move the water and chill in one place. While I can move a mostly full sanke fermenter around the house myself, I would not want to add a potential scalding to the equation. I was uncomfortable moving 1 gallon of scalding water at a time, that's why I bought the pump.

My system does not have herms to it. The only reason I could see the need is step mashing, which could be done via decoction. If you mash in a cooler you will probably only see a degree or two loss over an hour. As I said before I like to tinker but to me a HERM system adds a lot of complexity and cost without much benefit unless you are step mashing.

Just to give you an idea of my system.
Electrically controlled HLT, controlled by an ebay aquarium controller.
Simple cooler MLT
Electric Keggle for boiling controlled by an Auber Instruments PID.

I have a march pump to help move water, and chill.

My advice is to build your own system, keep it simple and add things as you feel they are needed.

Thanks for the response, I agree that I need to piece together my own system, it looks like the prebuilt/automated sculptures are out of my price range. It seems that I'll be purchasing a pump sooner than later, I have a bit of research to do on this, I not sure which are the best for my situation. Can you make any recommendations?

I have no plans on doing a great deal of step mashing, so maybe the HERMS coil and recirculation is a little more than I'm looking for. Thanks again

Curt

 

[fishkid]

I'm working on a build right now (stay tuned for build thread when its done / almost done) that is: direct fired, 3 vessel (25G each) single tier just like a Brutus. I'll be doing my brewing outside or in my detached garage (w/o plumbing) so I'm trying everything to avoid lifting anything I don't need to. The only things I foresee myself lifting are the 5-7 gallon fermenters (going to split batches into 5 gal containers).

The system including kettles, valves, fittings, tubing, stand, burners, CFC, pumps, propane & propane accessories, mill, kegging supplies (fridge, cornies, CO2) AAAND fermentation vessels is still under my $2000 budget.

I am not very electrically inclined either, which is why I favored a direct-fired approach. Before my setup is even complete I'm already kinda wishing I plumbed it for natural gas or electric, though my house really supports neither - especially for 15+ gallon batches. The best advice I can give is that if you've tolerated your current setup for 2 years, stick with it and slowly build your new system, constantly looking for the best deals on the components you need. Without a lot of luck and some stellar finds, there's no way in hell I would've kept my budget under $2000.

I plan on posting a bill of materials in my build thread, complete with links to places I bought stuff. But if you want, PM me and I'll email you the excel sheet with the full bill of materials (which wont be 100% accurate, but it's a starting point).

Thanks for the advice Mike_A, direct fire, now that's what I'm talking about If you don't mind me asking, what is it about the propane that leaves you wishing you went NG or electric?

Curt

 

[fishkid]

Just an option:

http://dayton.craigslist.org/for/2257047462.html

Yes, please! Wouldn't be the worst drive for me either...could even stop at Tony Packo's for a few dogs

Curt

 

[fishkid]

I found this little gem on Ebay, plus tons more not pictured... Give it time. This first thing I would suggest is to build / buy a bench and place it where you want. Placement is key and add the parts as you grow. If you want portable, snoop around for a heavy duty utility cart

Thanks Bent, because I want to stick with propane, it's looking like this is going to take form in the garage. Unless my wife lets me put a brew shed in our backyard, hah, right.

Curt

 

[Photopilot]

I am at work so can't post pictures of my setup but will when I get home.

One question is do you own the house? If so and there is sheetrock in the garage and an outside faucet, why not cut out some sheet rock and put a faucet inside so you can brew, and chill in winter?

If you have a big boil kettle already, why not start with building a 60 quart MLT using a cooler. This will get you brewing 10 gallon batches as soon as its done. You can add the other parts as you figure the rest out.

You can do the following over time:
Alter your boil kettle
Change your heating mechanism
Add an HLT
Create a stand

The only othe thing you would need sooner than later is a different way to chill your wort. Whatever you have for 5 gallons won't cut it for larger batches.

 

[fishkid]

I am at work so can't post pictures of my setup but will when I get home.

One question is do you own the house? If so and there is sheetrock in the garage and an outside faucet, why not cut out some sheet rock and put a faucet inside so you can brew, and chill in winter?

If you have a big boil kettle already, why not start with building a 60 quart MLT using a cooler. This will get you brewing 10 gallon batches as soon as its done. You can add the other parts as you figure the rest out.

You can do the following over time:
Alter your boil kettle
Change your heating mechanism
Add an HLT
Create a stand

The only othe thing you would need sooner than later is a different way to chill your wort. Whatever you have for 5 gallons won't cut it for larger batches.

Hey Photopilot, yes I own the house and that's a great idea. It's an attached garage and it probably wouldn't be too difficult to run some water in there. Actually the wall that is shared between the house and the garage, is the same wall near the utility sink the basement. I could probably tap into the water right there and run a spigot into the garage, heck would be even nicer to run hot and cold and install a utility sink out there.

I look forward to seeing the pictures of your setup. Thanks,

Curt

 

[sweet_corn]

I have a frost free spigot in my garage. As long as I shut it tight and drain the hose/keep it empty until I use it to chill, I brew all winter. Some nights as low as -5 degrees.

One time I did fill the hose, and then 4 hours later try to run water out of it. Took 25 minutes to get flowing water. Will never do that again...

 

[ruffdeezy]

I just ordered a toptier myself. Not going for the exact setup you want but the thing is impressive.

This may be similar to what you want, although it is electric
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/my-top-tier-review-176076/

these videos are cool too:

 

[Photopilot]

I look forward to seeing the pictures of your setup. Thanks,

Curt

Here is a picture of my setup early on in its life.

While a whole lot has changed since this picture all the components are the same.

A simple wooden stand
An HLT that is just a cooler with a ball valve
An MLT with a copper manifold
An electrical controlled Keggle.
An electrical control panel.

Since then I have added a pump to get the water to the top, an element in the HLT and upgraded the control panel. The point being if you build it right all the parts can grow with the system.

I have never brewed with anything but my stove or with my electric system, so i am biased. So my next question: Is your electrical panel in your garage? If so you could wire a Jacuzi sub panel in there and run a kick @ss electrical rig.

 

[Mike_A]

Thanks for the advice Mike_A, direct fire, now that's what I'm talking about If you don't mind me asking, what is it about the propane that leaves you wishing you went NG or electric?

Curt

Pretty much just the cost of propane, and how fast I can go through it with the burners raging away. I use two banjo BG14's and one smaller BG12 (for the MLT, just to sustain & step temps) and they can hog up gas when opened up to full blast - which isn't nearly as full as they valves could open, that would just blow propane out so fast it extinguishes the flames.

But, my house isn't wired with 240V which I'd need to wire up a 5.5kW or 11kW heating element for a 20gal boil. And my garage (brewery) is detached which makes it overly complicated / impossible to plumb natural gas.

 

[wildwest450]

If you're a tinkerer, build your own. After piecing together my first setup, I was done with diy systems, especially electric. I highly recommend electric, I absolutely love it. This is the system I went with. I upgraded to all stainless for what you have to spend. Totally unnecessary, but it's what I wanted. The plastic version is way cheaper.

Very good guys to work with, and you can be brewing on it in less than 2 weeks.

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/Build-Your-Own-Electric-Brewery-269p2351.htm

_

 

[Photopilot]

But, my house isn't wired with 240V which I'd need to wire up a 5.5kW or 11kW heating element for a 20gal boil. .

Is your house older? Because every house i have worked on no matter the age has 240v wired into the panel. Maybe they have been upgraded electrically over the time.

While I have never worked on a house with knob and tubes or fuses, all houses with circuit breakers I have seen have 2 legs of 120v power. Combine a 120v leg with a neutral leg you get 120v combine the 2- 120v legs you get 240v

I'd agree though on your assessment of needing 11kw for a 20 gallon boil. At 14 gallons pre-boil I do have to wait a while for my 4500 W to heat the wort. Hmmm maybe time to add another element to my keggle.

One advantage of the electrical though is I can plug in a cheap wall timer to my 120V power supply to have the control box go on at a preset time and wake up to water at ready to mash temps.

I'd have to say that top tier setup looks like a good setup for the money. I am not sure what pump it comes with but if possible upgrade to the higher speed march pump.

 

[Mustangj]

Curt.. If you need help building just let me know. I've been looking into building one myself and I have access to a welder.

 

[a_potter]

I got sick of lifting. I also got tired of running out of room in the mash tun. Here's my system. I have since put aluminum diamond plate wind shields and pump cover on it. It only cost about 850.00 to build. I just worked on it here and there over the winter. If your ever in the Flint area stop by and check it out.