Second-guessing myself

[AppleChex]

Over the holidays I enjoyed some sparkling cider provided by my nephew. Wanting more, I spent some time discussing with him how he made his cider, with the thought of emulating what he did. Now, as I read online what other people do, his method is seeming a little unorthodox.

He claimed to brew 5 gallons of from-concentrate apple juice for a week or so, then bottling it in PET bottles, where the continuing fermentation carbonated the beverage. His fermentation vat was a 5-gallon plastic water bottle with a tube going from the top down into another bottle of water as a makeshift air lock.

Back at home, I found I have an excellent homebrew supplier a mile away (Hydrobrew). I thought I'd drop in and check it out, and drove off with a 6.5 gallon carboy (thinking it would be most versatile), a 3-piece air lock matched with a drilled bung, a packet of Safale S-04 English Ale yeast, and some Iodophor.

A trip to Target garnered 5 gallons of store-brand Market Pantry apple juice from concentrate (with ascorbic acid) in plastic 1-gallon jugs. From Amazon.com I acquired a hydrometer and 12-inch test jar. I sanitized all my new equipment along with a funnel and a turkey baster from the kitchen, and poured the apple juice into the carboy. I measured the SG at 1.050, so with the ambient temperature at 73F I figure it at 1.052. (I figured it was air temperature that mattered, but should I base it on the liquid temperature instead?)

Next I added the yeast, stoppered the carboy with the air lock half-filled with Iodophore, and put it in a closet. That was yesterday, late morning. Today when I got home from work I found my brew was a cloudy orange and the air lock was bubbling at a rate of more than once a second. I'm guessing the temperature in that closet ranges from the mid 60's to the mid 70's.

What I'd like to do, based on discussions with my nephew, is bottle directly from my primary to 2-liter PET bottles once the SG is low enough for continuing fermentation to carb them up. That would be at, what, 1.010 to 1.005 SH? I have to admit I'm not feeling extra patient right now. But I'm having doubts about this based on what I'm reading on this forum.

So what say you all? Is my plan worth trying, given I have potentially years of brewing ahead of me to experiment? Should I get a 5-gallon carboy now and rack to that, and resign myself to the back-sweetening that might imply? Try something else? (I only have about 7 2-liter PET bottles, so will probably still have a gallon or so I can experiment with....)

Also--I'm thinking I need to check the SG before too long, but wondering if there's some trick to getting a sample out of there without contaminating things. To use my turkey baster I have to tip the carboy over part way. Help?

At least I'm having fun already.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

It sounds like you understand how many gravity points are required to bottle carb. Keep in mind that it's possible that it could drop below 1.000. So you need to make sure you account for that. Bottling at 1.005 would probably be a minimum if you don't rack off into a secondary and cold crash. You want to drop out a lot of the yeast in solution and leave only...a half billion instead of 2 billion I would personally just let it go dry, prime it with sugar and then bottle. You will have more control that way unless you can cold crash.

If you skip secondary you will end up with more lees in the final bottles also. To me, this isn't an issue. A slightly cloudy cider still tastes good, but won't be as pretty. That said, you will lose a little more cider at the bottom of each bottle because of this.

If you have extra fridge space, you could pop them in there and chill them after they have fully carb'd in the bottle and it should slow it down to a crawl.

I've never bottled in plastic other than a tester. So I can't say how things will turn out. In theory it should work just fine. I have seen people use 2 liter bottles for beer and it worked well.

If you go this route, take some photos, temp and gravity notes and let us know how it goes.

PS: I've heard of people snapping the necks off carboys using those handles when the vessel is full. I would recommend carrying from the bottom and not the handle. I put my carboys in plastic milk crates and it makes picking them up a lot easier.

 

[wilserbrewer]

As said above, it is easier and more reliable to let fermentation finish, then add a known amount of priming sugar to carbonate. This will likely produce more consistent carbonation, clearer cider, and less chance of exploding bottles.

 

[AppleChex]

Thanks for the tip about the carboy handle, PP. As it happens, I noted the paper that came with the handle called it "decorative," (though it didn't exactly warn me not to lift the carboy with it). So I was curious and learned from these forums not to lift with those handles. I've just used the handle for keeping things steady, lifting from the bottom. Ugh, those carboys are heavy when full. We got pretty intimate.

Is there a formula for how much priming sugar to use? I'm trying to understand the difference in confidence between predicting the end of fermentation based on SG and waiting until the end of fermentation and predicting the amount of fermentation based on priming sugar.

 

[wilserbrewer]

http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/

 

[Randzor]

Check out a priming guide. they base it on grams of sugar, and not sg, so I have no clue what the effect on sg would be. As for going from Primary to Bottles, I feel it is the easiest way unless you want that perfectly cleared cider(I feel even in glasses they tend to sweat and hide the clarity anyway.) that way its one vessel per batch to clean. Also go with the above posters suggestion of letting it finish then back sweetening. This gives you a lot more control of exactly how carbonated it will be, otherwise it'll just an estimation.

P.S. Welcome to Home brewing.

 

[Randzor]

Double post....

 

[AppleChex]

You people are persuasive. More and more I'm thinking I'll rack to a secondary and let it go dry off the lees, then prime with brown sugar or something and backsweeten with some Splenda we've had around the kitchen not being used.

This is day 4 and I'm entertained watching the lees...it's like an off-grid lava lamp in my dark closet.

 

[AppleChex]

Hmm. Actually I'd rather sweeten with a real sugar. So if I let the fermentation finish, then use the priming sugar calculator to figure how much sugar to add for carbonation, I just have to figure out how much extra sugar to add for sweetening (then stop the fermentation through heat pasteurization at just the right point). I guess I could mix sugar with my still brew to see how much to add to get to the sweetness I desire, but am wondering if carbonation will impact perceived sweetness, and in which direction. Anybody?

 

[EpicCider]

Definitely rack to a secondary. In my experience, cider really can use the time to settle out.

Don't worry so much and get experimenting. Just be careful with priming sugar / carbonating via yeast co2, you need to (at some point) kill that yeast. A lot of people also don't realize that if you let it go too long, you risk exploding when you are heating the bottles.

Also you sound like a bit like me, be forewarned, that if you use co2 from yeast to carbonate, you will get more sediment (in my experience) at the bottom of each bottle.

I'm not trying to scare you, just be safe.

 

[AppleChex]

Alright, I'm sorta following my original plan. I was ready to prime and/or backsweeten today, but when I checked the SG on my cider it was 1.005. Thinking I caught that nicely, I bottled into 6 2-liter PET bottles and 2 1.25-liter PET bottles. I left a decent amount of air at the top, but squeezed the bottles as I put on the lids, leaving just a little air at the top.

My plan now is to check the bottles each morning. When the 2 liter bottles feel hard like a fresh soda bottle, I'll open a 1.25-liter bottle and test the carbonation. If I start worrying about gushers, I'll pasteurize any remaining bottles.

I also racked almost a gallon to one of my original apple juice bottles and put an airlock on top. I'd like to compare this fast-and-dirty stuff I'm starting with to something a little different. And as a little treat, I tried to carefully pour off some of the cider left with the lees in the primary to enjoy today. It's in the fridge chilling.

 

[EpicCider]

Looks good, how does it taste?

I still stand by my thought that cider needs time to mature. I appreciate sharing the images as well.

 

[AppleChex]

Well, it tasted bland and not unpleasant. Rather like a glass of apple juice that was not sweet.

Right now I'm scratching my head and pondering what has been pointed out to me: that 2-liter PET bottles may have been a poor choice for heat pasteurization.

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

You are correct, you won't be able to pasteurize PET bottles. You'll have to put them in the fridge and hope they don't keep on trucking too much.

As for the headspace, you need a little space for the CO2 to built up and then be reabsorbed back into the cider.

Once it gets carbonated, the flavor changes (IMHO) that little bit of carbonic bite brightens everything up and gives the cider a lot more character. Depending on your juice, if any additional sugars were added and the yeast used, it could benefit from some aging or it could be best consumed early. You'll have to make that call.

I like using store bought Costco juice and an ale yeast for my cider. I can make all year long (consistently) and it's ready in about 3-4 weeks from pitching. Fresh pressed is great, but you have to press and make enough to last through the summer I have a hard time sitting on cider for too long. If I have it, I drink it.

 

[AppleChex]

Well, it's been 4 days since bottling my brew at 0.005 SG, and while the airspace at the top of most of my PET bottles has filled in some, none are "soda bottle" hard yet and in fact most are still "squeezed in" a little.

In pondering the issue of how to stop fermentation with sugars still in the cider, my attention has been drawn to filters. According to Wyeast Laboratories, yeasts are typically 5-10 microns in size. The Sawyer Point One filter system I have has an absolute rating of 0.1 micron, small enough to filter out bacteria, let alone yeast. Is this something anybody does for cider?

I guess in most scenarios it's easier heat pasteurize or crash chill, and both those methods can be done after the cider has carbonated.

At the reduced rate of fermentation I'm seeing now (I haven't actually seen a bubble yet go through the airlock in the 1 gallon I left to age), I'm pretty confident at being able to crash chill my cider as the bottles harden--something they seem to be doing at different rates. I would not have been able to crash chill all of them at once. This gives me time to enjoy some over time and also to gift a couple of 2-liter bottles to friends.

 

[EpicCider]

I've looked into filtering cider because I want to store it long-term, but I've heard a lot of speculation about filtering really hurts the overall balance and taste.

This is something I plan on testing in the near future (this year).

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

The Sawyer Point One filter system I have has an absolute rating of 0.1 micron, small enough to filter out bacteria, let alone yeast. Is this something anybody does for cider?

My only issue with the Sawyer filter is that it will be a very slow process and possibly cause some oxidation. It's a cartridge filter instead of a "pad" filter like most commercial applications.

I guess it's possible that you might be able to fit the filter inline with an auto siphon and eliminate the use of the "squeeze" bag, but I don't think it will filter very fast and might clog often. (but can be backwashed) You'd probably have to pump constantly instead of relying on gravity.

Very creative thinking on your part, though! Good idea if you could get it to work. I love these filters for backpacking. They are lightweight and are a breeze to use compared to the traditional pump style.