Schwarzbier dark malt percentage?

[Miraculix]

I’m thinking of brewing a schwarzbier in the near-ish future so it’s nice to read a thread on recipe composition with some lively discussion.

I’ve gathered that roasted flavors should be present but more on the restrained side and that huskless roasted malts are the way to go. With that being said has anyone taken a crack at a schwarzbier using chocolate rye malt? Kind of seems like maybe it could fit but I don’t have any experience with it.

Get yourself a Köstritzer and see for yourself, it's like the prototpe of a Schwarzbier. Then brew a beer with the chocolate rye and see if it gets close or strays too far away from it. My guess is, it is too far away. But I always used chocolate rye in combination with other rye malts so I cannot really say if what I tasted was from the chocolate rye or from the other rye malts i have used.

 

[AlexKay]

I’m thinking of brewing a schwarzbier in the near-ish future so it’s nice to read a thread on recipe composition with some lively discussion.

I’ve gathered that roasted flavors should be present but more on the restrained side and that huskless roasted malts are the way to go. With that being said has anyone taken a crack at a schwarzbier using chocolate rye malt? Kind of seems like maybe it could fit but I don’t have any experience with it.

Chocolate rye is great stuff. I use about 5% chocolate rye and 2% Carafa III Special. (And, as I mentioned, a little DRC.)

 

[seajellie]

Check out Kai Troester's schwarzbier recipe at braukaiser, to see bona fide German opinions saying that a schwarzbier can actually include caramunich. In fact, he says that the brewery Brauerei WIppra does not use any roast malt at all in their Schwarzbier - only a dark crystal. It took Silver one year at GABF. Yes, that's an American festival. Doesn't matter, it's a German Brewery that's making a schwarzbier that people enjoyed, and Kai (German by birth I believe) uses that recipe as a base for his, and is using some caramunich. I'd call that two pretty good references for some variation in this style. The dark crystal that Wippra uses(d) was not specified.

Personally I prefer many other schwarzbiers to the one offered by Köstritzer. I confess I've yet to have it in Germany, but from a can with ten months left to expiration in the states, it should be pretty clean. Kolmbacher Monschof Schwarzbier - haven't had it in ten years but I absolutely loved it when it was available. Perhaps I was getting slightly oxidized versions, but my homebrew recipes only got in the ballpark when I used a couple german crystal malts (medium and dark). Never got as close to it as I wanted, however.

A brewery that size is going to have malt kilned to their specs. We have to use the products and tools we have to get close.

 

[Protos]

literally everywhere I tried to look it up said that this style of beer has archeological evidence dating back to 800 BC. I typically don't accept something until I find it in many sources, which I did and have pasted below.

The list is really impressive (though it lacks the opinions of CosmoGIRL! and Playboy on the subject).
But all those aren't sources. Those are just echo chamber reverberations.

The source for all those articles is Gordon Strong's article in BYO where he says exactly this:

If you recall my recent article on rauchbier, you probably remember that this area is where the Frankish people settled in the Middle Ages. I’m not saying there is a strong link here, just that it seems that people that enjoyed smoky beers also would enjoy the more roasted darker beers as well. Even if the technology that produces modern dark malts hadn’t been invented yet. Some articles cite that charred barley bread used for brewing dated to 800 BCE was found near Kulmbach as evidence of Germany’s first brewing tradition. Could it be possible this is related? Seems a bit sketchy to me, except to point to perhaps a common preference for these flavors.

The one thing I don’t want to imply is that there is somehow an unbroken link for thousands of years to this style; there isn’t. Even when breweries that currently produce the beer talk about their heritage, that shouldn’t imply that all of their products were brewed continuously through this time. No, we can only point to what we know; that the beers were influenced through this regional preference and that they grew after 1990.

So, charred barley bread was found. That's all.
Thankfully, even the wildest Frankenstein-Schwarzbieresque recipes don't incorporate it into the grist

From which we clearly see that Gordon Strong works with his sources responsibly and comments them cautiously. The others, echoing him, don't.
That's how media work, unfortunately.

 

[Bill Tong]

Really? I've read several articles on how to brew a Schwarzbier (I can share them if you want) and every single one of them has Caramunich malt or, "mid-colored crystal malt".

Brewing Classic Styles has 2 Schwarzbier recipes, 1 has crystal and is very roasty, the other is refered to as a German Pilsner like Schwarzbier, which has only Pilsner, Light Munich and Carafa special in it, no crystal

 

[Protos]

Well, our talk tempted me to add a Schwarzbier to the 20 or so Lagers I'm planning to make this winter (12 of them are already fermenting or lagering). Haven't been brewing a Schwarzbier for ages.
So I went for searching for solid traditional recipes in CosmoGIRL! and Playboy in authoritative books and other sources in the most unbiased and open-minded way, up to being ready to embrace Caramuniuch if most authoritative authors would recommend it. What if I'm wrong with my Crusade against Crystal?

Mosher & Jackson in Radical Brewing - no Crystal.
Zainasheff & Palmer in Brewing Classic Styles - one with Crystal ("a shot in the dark based on limited knowledge"), one without ("very close to Koestrizer")
Troester on braukaiser.com - Crystal present
Dornbusch, both in BYO and in Ultimate Almanach - no Crystal (except Carapils which he adds to most of his beers anyway, regardless of the style)
The BYO Big Book of Clones - no Crystal
Kling in Bier selbst gebraut - Crystal present
Weyermann's Bamberger Hofbräu recipe collection - no Crystal
Weikert in Craft Beers and Brewing - Crystal present (along with Maris Otter, not very authentic recipe then)
Cole in BYO - no Crystal
Strong in Modern Homebrew Recipes - Crystal present
Strong in BYO - no Crystal
etc.

It turned out, I wasn't too much wrong. If I needed to defend the use of Crystal, I would have had a harder task than I'm having now to prove otherwise.

From another hand, I remember my last Koestrizer clone being a bit too thin and watery to my liking. So I can see very well where the temptation for Crystal might come from.
This time I probably won't aim for a clone but make an own "Schwarzbier-Style" beer.
No Crystal, of course. But I will thicken the Muhich with a bit of Melanoidin.

 

[AlexKay]

You could tell yourself that DRC was really a roast malt, not a crystal one. It does lovely things in a Schwarzbier. Or a Baltic Porter, for that matter ... though that's a style where I don't think we'll argue that crystal doesn't belong.

 

[Miraculix]

Well, our talk tempted me to add a Schwarzbier to the 20 or so Lagers I'm planning to make this winter (12 of them are already fermenting or lagering). Haven't been brewing a Schwarzbier for ages.
So I went for searching for solid traditional recipes in CosmoGIRL! and Playboy in authoritative books and other sources in the most unbiased and open-minded way, up to being ready to embrace Caramuniuch if most authoritative authors would recommend it. What if I'm wrong with my Crusade against Crystal?

Mosher & Jackson in Radical Brewing - no Crystal.
Zainasheff & Palmer in Brewing Classic Styles - one with Crystal ("a shot in the dark based on limited knowledge"), one without ("very close to Koestrizer")
Troester on braukaiser.com - Crystal present
Dornbusch, both in BYO and in Ultimate Almanach - no Crystal (except Carapils which he adds to most of his beers anyway, regardless of the style)
The BYO Big Book of Clones - no Crystal
Kling in Bier selbst gebraut - Crystal present
Weyermann's Bamberger Hofbräu recipe collection - no Crystal
Weikert in Craft Beers and Brewing - Crystal present (along with Maris Otter, not very authentic recipe then)
Cole in BYO - no Crystal
Strong in Modern Homebrew Recipes - Crystal present
Strong in BYO - no Crystal
etc.

It turned out, I wasn't too much wrong. If I needed to defend the use of Crystal, I would have had a harder task than I'm having now to prove otherwise.

From another hand, I remember my last Koestrizer clone being a bit too thin and watery to my liking. So I can see very well where the temptation for Crystal might come from.
This time I probably won't aim for a clone but make an own "Schwarzbier-Style" beer.
No Crystal, of course. But I will thicken the Muhich with a bit of Melanoidin.

Watery comes much likely from a mash that was done at a too low temperature. But my guess is, you already know that.

You could tell yourself that DRC was really a roast malt, not a crystal one. It does lovely things in a Schwarzbier. Or a Baltic Porter, for that matter ... though that's a style where I don't think we'll argue that crystal doesn't belong.

DRC is something I want to try in the future, one of those kind of unique newer malts. It is second on my list, first was Simpsons Imperial, which is happily bubbling at 50% of the grist in my historic porter inspired recipe atm. One bitter or low og porter, whatever you call it with the imperial and then I am off to number 2, which is DRC.

 

[Protos]

Watery comes much likely from a mash that was done at a too low temperature. But my guess is, you already know that

How could you assume I didn't do on a Lager a multistepped mash including the obligatory dextrinisation rest?!

I think it was just an expectation bias: I'm more accustomed to dark beers being fuller, sweeter, and stronger, so the less-intensive dark beer tasted a bit unfulfilling. I noticed the same with my session English Porters.

The solution is simple: adding 20% of different Crystal Malts of every kind and shade, no more than 2% each brand a double decoction. It adds a body of such a special kind you don't even think of adding any Crystal dextrins to it.

 

[Protos]

DRC

Not mindblowingly impressed, to be honest. If it's a Simpsons' take on the Special B concept, the real SpecB is better. If it's a malt in its own right, it's an interesting one, a better (but not wildly different) substitute for Dark Crystal.

 

[AlexKay]

Not mindblowingly impressed, to be honest. If it's a Simpsons' take on the Special B concept, the real SpecB is better. If it's a malt in its own right, it's an interesting one, a better (but not wildly different) substitute for Dark Crystal.

No, special B is just dark crystal. DRC has some real roast to it. The closest I've found is Briess Extra Special, but I prefer DRC.

 

[Protos]

Special B is also claimed to be double roasted. Just like Spezial W from Weyermann and Spezial X from Bestmalz. Don't know abut Briess', have never put my hands on US malts (unfortunately).
It's the same class of double roasted malts.

 

[Miraculix]

How could you assume I didn't do on a Lager a multistepped mash including the obligatory dextrinisation rest?!

I think it was just an expectation bias: I'm more accustomed to dark beers being fuller, sweeter, and stronger, so the less-intensive dark beer tasted a bit unfulfilling. I noticed the same with my session English Porters.

The solution is simple: adding 20% of different Crystal Malts of every kind and shade, no more than 2% each brand a double decoction. It adds a body of such a special kind you don't even think of adding any Crystal dextrins to it.

Oh man... do not give me new ideas please.

 

[jdauria]

Really? I've read several articles on how to brew a Schwarzbier (I can share them if you want) and every single one of them has Caramunich malt or, "mid-colored crystal malt". Also, I've looked at several recipes online and they all have some form of crystal malt. I guess it's hard to mimic a beer that's been around since 1390. This is all confusing. Some people say to do something, others say that is doesn't belong. Whisky, Tango, Foxtrot!

There can be confusion about "crystal" malt...when talking a Schwarzbier, we are not talking Crystal 40, 60 etc...but really as you mentioned Cara malts...i.e. CaraMunich, CaraJHell, etc...mainly CaraMunich really though. Sure crystal and cara can be interchangeable, but while use a US or British crystal for the style when you can use a German Cara malt?

 

[kylewag]

The list is really impressive (though it lacks the opinions of CosmoGIRL! and Playboy on the subject).

You have inspired me to further my research. I will exhaustively search Playboy for articles on Schwarzbier history (at least that's what I'll tell my wife when she asks what I'm doing). You never know what information might be hiding in the details of those photos, so I'll have to look very closely.

 

[Protos]

Now I'm afraid, after completing your exhaustive research you might come back and teach us the completely new meanings for the terms "Schwarzbier" and "Crystal"... From then, our brewing sessions would never be the same.

 

[seajellie]

Great conversation, this is one of my favorite styles. I just popped the cap on the first bottle from my 2-week old (in package) Schwarzbier and I'm digging it. I used 4 oz of Simpson's DRC malt, at 2.2%.

It's a great black lager with some caramunich, carabohem, and 10 oz of carafa I. I'd actually not argue about classification on this, because it was a bit of a kitchen-sink-leftover brew to close up the brewing season with grains on hand. But it's unarguably a Germanic black lager and so dang good. Best of lucks with all your schwarzy adventures.

 

[kylewag]

Now I'm afraid, after completing your exhaustive research you might come back and teach us the completely new meanings for the terms "Schwarzbier" and "Crystal"... From then, our brewing sessions would never be the same.

So far, I've found lots of results for, "Crystal" and from what I've seen, I'll drink to that no matter what you call it.

 

[Witherby]

That is because everybody can write articles and they all can fill the articles with whateve they want. Does not have to be acurate. If you can find an article from the Köstritzer guys sharing their recipe and saying that they use crystal malt, I am all ears. Otherwise .......

Gordon Strong, in his 2020 Brew Your Own magazine style profile on Schwarzbier, tells an interesting story about the modern history of Köstritzer Schwarzbier. He says that Michael Jackson's 1990 World Guide to Beer describes Schwarzbier as a "low alcohol sweet beer." But then after reunification "Bitburger purchased the Köstritzer brewery in Bad Köstritz in 1991 with the goal of more widely producing and exporting the beer. They reformulated the beer Jackson first described to a standard strength beer or Vollbier."

Ron Pattinson seems to confirm the 1990 description of Schwarzbier here:
The beers and breweries of Thuringia (25 years ago)

These are Ron's own 1990 tasting notes on Köstritzer:

Kostritzer Schwarzbierbrauerei, Bad Kostritz
Schwarzbier	Black, fairly sweet and malty

In that Gordon Strong article he gives a recipe based on Köstritzer and it is 50% pale malt (pilsner malt), 43% Munich, and 7% roasted malt, so no caramel malt, but that current recipe is only from 1991 and was created by Bitburger, so not super traditional! And they aren't the only German breweries to brew Schwarzbier, so I have no idea if any of them now use caramel malts, but it wouldn't shock me if some did at some point. Weyermann says you can use Caramunich II in a Schwarzbier:
Weyermann® CARAMUNICH® Type 2 * – Weyermann® Spezialmalze

That being said, I brewed a Schwarzbier in October and it had no caramel or crystal malts:

7.00 lb IREKS Pilsner Malt (1.8 SRM) (63.6 %)
3.00 lb IREKS Munich Malt (10.2 SRM) (27.3 %)
0.75 lb Carafa Special I (Weyermann) (320.0 SRM) (6.8 %) --added at Vorlauf
0.25 lb Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (470.0 SRM) (2.3 %)--added at Vorlauf

I think next time I might reduce the Carafa Special III even lower next time, but the beer is excellent and won my homebrew club Schwarzbier mini-comp. I prefer the modern drier version of Köstritzer, but I tend to prefer Franconian versions of many beer styles, which are in general drier and hoppier than their southern Bavarian counterparts.

 

[Protos]

^ That's what I сall a thoughtful approach to traditional styles: Sources, Reflections, Reasoning.
Not like: "an article on Playboy a Random Cooking Site For Girls says you must throw in Potatoes so I did!!!".

There was no Crystal malt produced in Germany when German traditional styles - as we know them now - were forming in the 19th century. That alone is pretty sure enough to close the question if Crystal malt is an appropriate ingredient in a Schwarzbier or any other traditional German style (regardless of what the modern German brewers, educated on American examples, are doing nowadays). There was no Crystal malt in beers (with a few exceptions, always determined not by the taste of the brewer but by random circumstancial reasons) even in England, before the World Wars!

I can see where the Crystal temptation is arising from. The use of undermodified (=traditional) malts and decoction eliminates this need altogether.
Not everyone is ready to search for the heritage Malts and employ the decoction process though. So I'm not feeling comfortatble to tell people they are wrong to use Crystal (or any other fancy modern ingredient) in their "traditional" beers. I just hope humbly they would proudly brag their inventions as their Own Smart And Brilliant Inventions and not as the [bastardised] Traditional Styles.
My hope is hopeless, I know.

 

[AlexKay]

Why is 19th century "traditional" while after WWII is "modern"? (And by 19th century, you could be talking 1894, for example, for Spaten Helles.)

As for undermodified malts ... They. Are. Just. Worse. They're a curiosity for brewers who are interested in the history of brewing, but historical re-creation is really the only reason to use them. Decoction? Single, maybe (though I'm not convinced) -- there's at least an argument to be made that Maillard reactions change the wort. More than that, again, is for history buffs but not brewers.

But yes, if it's a lager with a clean profile, relatively little roast (and smooth), some bitterness, and sessionable, call it a Schwarzbier, regardless of the ingredient list. If your friends (or customers) know what to expect when they hear "Schwarzbier," you only confuse things by calling it a German-American Dark Lager, or whatever.

 

[Protos]

Why is 19th century "traditional" while after WWII is "modern"?

I really don't know why, because I've never heard of such a definition before.
Traditional brewing is distinguished from modernized (or bastardised) brewing not along the World Wars timelines but along the lines of the globalization process. As soon as a settled local brewing tradition is incorporated into a broader business context and undergoes significant change in technology it's not traditional anymore, even if the old exotic names are still being exploited. The story of the English Real Ales gives much to the understanding of the process. And the evolution of the so called "Norwegian Farmhouse Ales" even more so.
The Schwarzbier in question was pretty much traditional even in the 1980s, so long past the WWII. Most probably, it stays so in Germany even now (although this requires some further investigation).

 

[TheMadKing]

One of the best schwartzbiers I've had was a czech pils recipe with a dash of Munich and sinamar for color.

I'm a huge fan of sinamar for schwartzbier

 

[Miraculix]

One of the best schwartzbiers I've had was a czech pils recipe with a dash of Munich and sinamar for color.

I'm a huge fan of sinamar for schwartzbier

Never tried it. Is it really completely neutral in taste?

 

[TheMadKing]

Never tried it. Is it really completely neutral in taste?

No its not completely neutral. You can taste that SOMETHING is going on. But it certainly is much less than using carafa special

 

[Miraculix]

No its not completely neutral. You can taste that SOMETHING is going on. But it certainly is much less than using carafa special

Sounds like optimised for a Schwazbier!

 

[TheMadKing]

Sounds like optimised for a Schwazbier!

I think weyerman actually describes it as exactly that somewhere on their website

 

[kylewag]

Random Cooking Site For Girls says you must throw in Potatoes so I did!!!".

Just for fun I looked up brewing with potatoes - Brewing with Potatoes - Brew Your Own .
I don’t think I’ll be trying that anytime soon. But, maybe others have had good luck with that. I would make a joke about salad beer but that’s probably already a thing somewhere.

 

[beerisyummy]

I had my first Köstritzer a few weeks ago and am totally hooked, so this thread is great as I definitely plan to attempt one. Fwiw, Zainasheff/Palmer Brewing Classic Styles sez:
OG 1.046 - 1.052
FG 1.010 - 1.016
22 - 32 IBU
17 - 30 SRM
4.4 - 5.4% ABV

They give two recipes. One is described as "on the edge of the style with almost too much roasted malt character," but it's a medal-winner and everyone likes it. It goes like this:
4.6 lb continental Pilsener malt
6.1 lb Munich malt
6 oz 40°L Crystal (AHAH!!!!)
6 oz 420°L Chocolate
3.5 oz 500°L Roasted Barley
3.5 oz 430°L Carafa Special II

And then the more "traditional" one, described as "very similar to Köstritzer" is:

9 lb continental Pilsener malt
1 lb Munich malt
11 oz 430°L Carafa Special II

A STI mash @154° is recommended for the first recipe, 151° for the second.
For both, a 90 minute boil, adding 27 IBU of Hallertau for 60 min., another 3 IBU for 20 min., and a half ounce at flameout. Recommended yeasts for both are WLP830, WY2124, Ferments S-23.
Since I enjoy Köstritzer so VERY much I think I will do recipe #2 verbatim, and when I get around to it again, perhaps I will try a tweak or two.

Prosit!

 

[Miraculix]

I had my first Köstritzer a few weeks ago and am totally hooked, so this thread is great as I definitely plan to attempt one. Fwiw, Zainasheff/Palmer Brewing Classic Styles sez:
OG 1.046 - 1.052
FG 1.010 - 1.016
22 - 32 IBU
17 - 30 SRM
4.4 - 5.4% ABV

They give two recipes. One is described as "on the edge of the style with almost too much roasted malt character," but it's a medal-winner and everyone likes it. It goes like this:
4.6 lb continental Pilsener malt
6.1 lb Munich malt
6 oz 40°L Crystal (AHAH!!!!)
6 oz 420°L Chocolate
3.5 oz 500°L Roasted Barley
3.5 oz 430°L Carafa Special II

And then the more "traditional" one, described as "very similar to Köstritzer" is:

9 lb continental Pilsener malt
1 lb Munich malt
11 oz 430°L Carafa Special II

A STI mash @154° is recommended for the first recipe, 151° for the second.
For both, a 90 minute boil, adding 27 IBU of Hallertau for 60 min., another 3 IBU for 20 min., and a half ounce at flameout. Recommended yeasts for both are WLP830, WY2124, Ferments S-23.
Since I enjoy Köstritzer so VERY much I think I will do recipe #2 verbatim, and when I get around to it again, perhaps I will try a tweak or two.

Prosit!

I would be very surprised if I would find out that the Köstritzer guys do late or flame out additions. If you want that specific taste, skip these.

 

[Protos]

Searching through the hobbybrauer.de on the subject of my soon-to-brew Schwarzbier and feeling pain looking how far from their brewing heritage some German homebrewers have strayed with their loads of Crystals, late hoppings and catty hops in traditional styles I met copious references to the TGL 7764 of 1980 and 1987-90, the East German State Standard for Brewing. Surprisingly, it happened to be freely available online. A trove of brewing data on each sort of beer brewed in East Germany. No grists or hopping schedules, unfortunately, but a lot of other useful info. Highly recommended, whether one needs Google Translator to read German or not.

It seems that Ron Pattinson used to propose to systematize and publish the data from this very document on his blog if enough readers were willing to brew the recipes, but just a single reply ensued, so he didn't.