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Talk to the Colony. Outside of direct sales, they'll tell you it is easier to sell their mead in New Jersey than PA (where only select SKUs are sold through state stores). Damn antiquated laws and non-consumer focused politicians.
Never heard of them before but this is so unsurprising. It's probably cheaper for them to sell in NJ instead of their home state too because of the necessity of selling through the state store.
 
Another question, Naegerbomb - I thought I remembered someone mentioning something like this earlier but couldn't find it. In case someone didn't want to drink an entire bottle of mead in a sitting, what would be the best way to keep it fresh? Would it be best to re-cork or could they use something like the picture below?

I have something like this for wine, but didn't know if it would harm the mead. It's a pump to remove oxygen and seal like a wine cork, except it's plastic instead of cork. Thanks!

41VOhm4YPFL._SY355_.jpg
 
Another question, Naegerbomb - I thought I remembered someone mentioning something like this earlier but couldn't find it. In case someone didn't want to drink an entire bottle of mead in a sitting, what would be the best way to keep it fresh? Would it be best to re-cork or could they use something like the picture below?

I have something like this for wine, but didn't know if it would harm the mead. It's a pump to remove oxygen and seal like a wine cork, except it's plastic instead of cork. Thanks!

41VOhm4YPFL._SY355_.jpg

We use these in the tasting room - but it's only for temporary storage. There is some very good evidence that the vacuum does not persist over a period of a day or so. Some versions of the vacuum stopper exist that have a gauge on it so you can visually see that there exists a vacuum. There are also more high tech (read: expensive) options out there like the Coravin that can do some pretty amazing things (and leave the cork intact). The easiest (and probably best) thing to do is just to re-cork it and put it in the fridge (exactly what the author of the above linked article recommends) -- and for longer term storage use some shielding gas like an argon/nitrogen blend (wine preserver). However, I have a lot of anecdotal evidence that (at least for our mead) that the wine preserver is unnecessary - and that our wine naturally resists oxidation for weeks and months (unlike many red wines which will oxidize and have reduced aroma within 3-5 hours or so). My recommendation is to just recork our mead and put it in the fridge.
 
We use these in the tasting room - but it's only for temporary storage. There is some very good evidence that the vacuum does not persist over a period of a day or so. Some versions of the vacuum stopper exist that have a gauge on it so you can visually see that there exists a vacuum. There are also more high tech (read: expensive) options out there like the Coravin that can do some pretty amazing things (and leave the cork intact). The easiest (and probably best) thing to do is just to re-cork it and put it in the fridge (exactly what the author of the above linked article recommends) -- and for longer term storage use some shielding gas like an argon/nitrogen blend (wine preserver). However, I have a lot of anecdotal evidence that (at least for our mead) that the wine preserver is unnecessary - and that our wine naturally resists oxidation for weeks and months (unlike many red wines which will oxidize and have reduced aroma within 3-5 hours or so). My recommendation is to just recork our mead and put it in the fridge.

Perfect - thank you! I can't imagine sitting on an open bottle for more than a week anyway... I definitely appreciate the response!
 
Perfect - thank you! I can't imagine sitting on an open bottle for more than a week anyway... I definitely appreciate the response!
I have a bottle of The Statement that I opened 10 months ago. Kind of an experiment to see how it will do over time just recorked and stored in the fridge. I have a small amount every 3-4 weeks. Had it as recent as Friday night. No oxidation and a slight decline in the pop it has when fresh but a fantastic drink still.
 
We use these in the tasting room - but it's only for temporary storage. There is some very good evidence that the vacuum does not persist over a period of a day or so. Some versions of the vacuum stopper exist that have a gauge on it so you can visually see that there exists a vacuum. There are also more high tech (read: expensive) options out there like the Coravin that can do some pretty amazing things (and leave the cork intact). The easiest (and probably best) thing to do is just to re-cork it and put it in the fridge (exactly what the author of the above linked article recommends) -- and for longer term storage use some shielding gas like an argon/nitrogen blend (wine preserver). However, I have a lot of anecdotal evidence that (at least for our mead) that the wine preserver is unnecessary - and that our wine naturally resists oxidation for weeks and months (unlike many red wines which will oxidize and have reduced aroma within 3-5 hours or so). My recommendation is to just recork our mead and put it in the fridge.

after hearing that they last up to 3 months (or longer) if you can hold them I experimented with fridge. when I would pour an oz I would usually let it sit for about an hr before sipping and I had a bottle last month and a half w no noticeable change. For our mega Schramm tasting, a small batch ginger that wasn't that great during the tasting (comparitively speaking) became amazing about a week later.
 
Naegerbomb what type of vessel do you use for primary fermentation on fruit?

I'm trying to find something that will make getting the beer off of fruit in a second fermentation easier.

I'd love to find a tank with a false bottom of sorts to hold the fruit which would make things much simpler.

Just curious if you guys have dedicated equipment or just go through the headaches of filtering.
 
Naegerbomb what type of vessel do you use for primary fermentation on fruit?

I'm trying to find something that will make getting the beer off of fruit in a second fermentation easier.

I'd love to find a tank with a false bottom of sorts to hold the fruit which would make things much simpler.

Just curious if you guys have dedicated equipment or just go through the headaches of filtering.

What is your recipe and process? What volume are you talking about? 5 gallons or 500?

For mead (and beer), using fruit in primary is totally different than using fruit in secondary. There are many differences in their processing style and end product, but a big thing to keep in mind is oxygen. During primary fermentation, you have active production of CO2; for the most part, during secondary/tertiary fermentation you have a negligible amount of CO2 being produced (at least it is helpful and prudent to treat it as negligible). This is important because of mold and other oxidative processes that will lead to a product with a poor taste. In secondary, if you have any oxygen in contact with fruit - you have the opportunity for mold growth. In primary, the production of around 25-50 volumes of CO2 tends to very quickly and efficiently purge the headspace of whatever volume vessel you are fermenting in. When you use fruit in secondary (for beer or mead) you have to take this into account, and either adjust your vessel or your process. One method would be to use a vessel such as a barrel (e.g. with a lot of fruited sour beer production) or a carboy, and top off the vessel so that it is filled completely; both of these methods can get messy and a little sketchy real quick, as you are loading a quantity of fruit into a vessel through a small opening, filling it with beer, and hoping that fermentation does not restart. If it's intentionally sour, then there are other considerations that I can't go over in a few paragraphs. If you are making a fruited sour beer, there are a lot of great pieces of advice in Michael Tonsmiere's book, something that every brewer should have - whether they're making sour beer or not.

How your process evolves also depends greatly on your recipe. Our process for using fruit is probably different than most beer and mead producers, because we use a ridiculous quantity per gallon of fruit (in primary); most other beer and mead producers (if they use real fruit at all) will use maybe 1-2#/gallon max (and usually in secondary). Our process requires a number of techniques and tools to deal with this quantity of solids (tanks with bottom manways, variable capacity lids, pigeage tools, pump-over cart, etc -- we do not filter anything). See what I mean about scale? It's easy for me to say that you need a 1000-gallon tank with a large bottom manway and 300 cubic foot tanks of food grade nitrogen and argon.

If you're working with a common fermentation bucket, I would recommend you pick up a SiphonTap. We use these for test batches and they work great, but you kind of have to get your hands into the product to start the siphon (something I've mentioned to the inventors of a ballyhooed and delayed homebrewer's siphon -- they were under the impression a boiled piece of steel wool would work as an end attachment, which I can guarantee you it would not - at least for the seed-laden fruits that we use that basically disintegrate into mush). The SiphonTap works great, but I don't think they are in production anymore, so buy two if you can. They are plastic and tend to break (another reason I want a stainless steel version that I can attach to my stainless siphon starter, if they ever ship the damn thing!). If you are using whole fruit (like cherries) that won't break up much, you could try using a nylon strainer bag - or just give it a go with a regular racking cane and play it by ear.

If you have to use a bucket (and you have a CO2 cylinder), I would drill out another hole in your bucket lid and buy yourself a threaded barb hose fitting (McMaster Carr or your LHBS) so that you can (SLOWLY) blanket your fruited beer with CO2 to purge the oxygen (and prevent mold). Many breweries and wineries utilize this kind of procedure (using a tank blanketing valve) for purging the headspace of secondary (or aging) tank with "shielding gas" (e.g. CO2, N2, argon, or a blend of those gases) -- although this kind of "reductive" winemaking (taking great lengths to reduce oxygen exposure) is newer and sometimes looked down upon by traditionalists or those in the extreme oxidative winemaking camp. IMHO, the best process is found somewhere in the middle of these two extremes: utilizing some reductive techniques but allowing some carefully controlled exposure to oxygen.

If you ever have any other questions, please drop me a line: james at schrammsmead.com. Cheers!
 
What is your recipe and process? What volume are you talking about? 5 gallons or 500?

For mead (and beer), using fruit in primary is totally different than using fruit in secondary. There are many differences in their processing style and end product, but a big thing to keep in mind is oxygen. During primary fermentation, you have active production of CO2; for the most part, during secondary/tertiary fermentation you have a negligible amount of CO2 being produced (at least it is helpful and prudent to treat it as negligible). This is important because of mold and other oxidative processes that will lead to a product with a poor taste. In secondary, if you have any oxygen in contact with fruit - you have the opportunity for mold growth. In primary, the production of around 25-50 volumes of CO2 tends to very quickly and efficiently purge the headspace of whatever volume vessel you are fermenting in. When you use fruit in secondary (for beer or mead) you have to take this into account, and either adjust your vessel or your process. One method would be to use a vessel such as a barrel (e.g. with a lot of fruited sour beer production) or a carboy, and top off the vessel so that it is filled completely; both of these methods can get messy and a little sketchy real quick, as you are loading a quantity of fruit into a vessel through a small opening, filling it with beer, and hoping that fermentation does not restart. If it's intentionally sour, then there are other considerations that I can't go over in a few paragraphs. If you are making a fruited sour beer, there are a lot of great pieces of advice in Michael Tonsmiere's book, something that every brewer should have - whether they're making sour beer or not.

How your process evolves also depends greatly on your recipe. Our process for using fruit is probably different than most beer and mead producers, because we use a ridiculous quantity per gallon of fruit (in primary); most other beer and mead producers (if they use real fruit at all) will use maybe 1-2#/gallon max (and usually in secondary). Our process requires a number of techniques and tools to deal with this quantity of solids (tanks with bottom manways, variable capacity lids, pigeage tools, pump-over cart, etc -- we do not filter anything). See what I mean about scale? It's easy for me to say that you need a 1000-gallon tank with a large bottom manway and 300 cubic foot tanks of food grade nitrogen and argon.

If you're working with a common fermentation bucket, I would recommend you pick up a SiphonTap. We use these for test batches and they work great, but you kind of have to get your hands into the product to start the siphon (something I've mentioned to the inventors of a ballyhooed and delayed homebrewer's siphon -- they were under the impression a boiled piece of steel wool would work as an end attachment, which I can guarantee you it would not - at least for the seed-laden fruits that we use that basically disintegrate into mush). The SiphonTap works great, but I don't think they are in production anymore, so buy two if you can. They are plastic and tend to break (another reason I want a stainless steel version that I can attach to my stainless siphon starter, if they ever ship the damn thing!). If you are using whole fruit (like cherries) that won't break up much, you could try using a nylon strainer bag - or just give it a go with a regular racking cane and play it by ear.

If you have to use a bucket (and you have a CO2 cylinder), I would drill out another hole in your bucket lid and buy yourself a threaded barb hose fitting (McMaster Carr or your LHBS) so that you can (SLOWLY) blanket your fruited beer with CO2 to purge the oxygen (and prevent mold). Many breweries and wineries utilize this kind of procedure (using a tank blanketing valve) for purging the headspace of secondary (or aging) tank with "shielding gas" (e.g. CO2, N2, argon, or a blend of those gases) -- although this kind of "reductive" winemaking (taking great lengths to reduce oxygen exposure) is newer and sometimes looked down upon by traditionalists or those in the extreme oxidative winemaking camp. IMHO, the best process is found somewhere in the middle of these two extremes: utilizing some reductive techniques but allowing some carefully controlled exposure to oxygen.

If you ever have any other questions, please drop me a line: james at schrammsmead.com. Cheers!

YfDER5N.jpg
 
What is your recipe and process? What volume are you talking about? 5 gallons or 500?

For mead (and beer), using fruit in primary is totally different than using fruit in secondary. There are many differences in their processing style and end product, but a big thing to keep in mind is oxygen. During primary fermentation, you have active production of CO2; for the most part, during secondary/tertiary fermentation you have a negligible amount of CO2 being produced (at least it is helpful and prudent to treat it as negligible). This is important because of mold and other oxidative processes that will lead to a product with a poor taste. In secondary, if you have any oxygen in contact with fruit - you have the opportunity for mold growth. In primary, the production of around 25-50 volumes of CO2 tends to very quickly and efficiently purge the headspace of whatever volume vessel you are fermenting in. When you use fruit in secondary (for beer or mead) you have to take this into account, and either adjust your vessel or your process. One method would be to use a vessel such as a barrel (e.g. with a lot of fruited sour beer production) or a carboy, and top off the vessel so that it is filled completely; both of these methods can get messy and a little sketchy real quick, as you are loading a quantity of fruit into a vessel through a small opening, filling it with beer, and hoping that fermentation does not restart. If it's intentionally sour, then there are other considerations that I can't go over in a few paragraphs. If you are making a fruited sour beer, there are a lot of great pieces of advice in Michael Tonsmiere's book, something that every brewer should have - whether they're making sour beer or not.

How your process evolves also depends greatly on your recipe. Our process for using fruit is probably different than most beer and mead producers, because we use a ridiculous quantity per gallon of fruit (in primary); most other beer and mead producers (if they use real fruit at all) will use maybe 1-2#/gallon max (and usually in secondary). Our process requires a number of techniques and tools to deal with this quantity of solids (tanks with bottom manways, variable capacity lids, pigeage tools, pump-over cart, etc -- we do not filter anything). See what I mean about scale? It's easy for me to say that you need a 1000-gallon tank with a large bottom manway and 300 cubic foot tanks of food grade nitrogen and argon.

If you're working with a common fermentation bucket, I would recommend you pick up a SiphonTap. We use these for test batches and they work great, but you kind of have to get your hands into the product to start the siphon (something I've mentioned to the inventors of a ballyhooed and delayed homebrewer's siphon -- they were under the impression a boiled piece of steel wool would work as an end attachment, which I can guarantee you it would not - at least for the seed-laden fruits that we use that basically disintegrate into mush). The SiphonTap works great, but I don't think they are in production anymore, so buy two if you can. They are plastic and tend to break (another reason I want a stainless steel version that I can attach to my stainless siphon starter, if they ever ship the damn thing!). If you are using whole fruit (like cherries) that won't break up much, you could try using a nylon strainer bag - or just give it a go with a regular racking cane and play it by ear.

If you have to use a bucket (and you have a CO2 cylinder), I would drill out another hole in your bucket lid and buy yourself a threaded barb hose fitting (McMaster Carr or your LHBS) so that you can (SLOWLY) blanket your fruited beer with CO2 to purge the oxygen (and prevent mold). Many breweries and wineries utilize this kind of procedure (using a tank blanketing valve) for purging the headspace of secondary (or aging) tank with "shielding gas" (e.g. CO2, N2, argon, or a blend of those gases) -- although this kind of "reductive" winemaking (taking great lengths to reduce oxygen exposure) is newer and sometimes looked down upon by traditionalists or those in the extreme oxidative winemaking camp. IMHO, the best process is found somewhere in the middle of these two extremes: utilizing some reductive techniques but allowing some carefully controlled exposure to oxygen.

If you ever have any other questions, please drop me a line: james at schrammsmead.com. Cheers!


This is all great info but not actually what I was asking.

As you might know, separating beer from fruit in secondary is a pain. In a barrel it's even more difficult as well as removing the fruit from the barrel.

I was asking if you have dedicated equipment that makes taking your mead off of the fruit less of a headache. Such as a fermenter with a false bottom.
 
Also I'm talking about 7bbls worth of beer going into fruit.

I also see what you're saying about the large tank with a bottom manway, I knew you guys used a crazy amount of fruit in your meads which is why I was curious as to how you got the mead off of the fruit.
 
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I was asking if you have dedicated equipment that makes taking your mead off of the fruit less of a headache.

Yes, we use dedicated winemaking equipment for producing our mead:

tanks with bottom manways, variable capacity lids, pigeage tools, pump-over cart ... 300 cubic foot tanks of food grade nitrogen and argon ... etc

I hope this helps re-answer that question.

Such as a fermenter with a false bottom.

We do not use these, although they exist. The tanks that I know of that have this (griddle on bottom or side along the racking ports) are manufactured by Letina, although I'm sure this system is deployed by other manufacturers. I would think most winemakers would not use it unless they were only making "free run" wine (like we are). Most winemakers would use a 4" port and pump the wine and marc solids out to a press.

Like I said, we do not have a griddle on our tanks - we do have a pump over cart that we purchased from G.W. Kent that has a griddle insert for the top. You can use this with or without strainer bags, depending on your recipe. It also makes a very handy workhorse for mixing liquids, chemicals, etc - since it is on wheels. We don't do pump overs generally - but we use this for racking procedures (two pumps are required to use this cart for transfers). I think the pump over cart is easier to clean than a tank with a griddle would be. I'm sure you are familiar with cleaning the false bottom on a large lauter tun - it can be challenging, but with a lauter tun you don't need it to be sanitized necessarily. With a primary fermenter you do - so the difficulty level is increased. I only have experience with a 9 bbl lauter tun, and it was a real PITA.

Also I'm talking about 7bbls worth of beer going into fruit.

I'm not actually sure how much more helpful I can be without knowing at least a little about your recipe. Sour or clean? What fruit? Your transfer procedure is going to be hugely different with pitted cherries than it would be with puree, or fruits that basically puree themselves in fermentation (e.g. raspberries). I have experience with many types of fruit. They all act differently in the tank. How much fruit? If you are going to add 10# of fruit per bbl, your process will be different than if you are going to add 300# of fruit per bbl. So your solution might fall somewhere in between using a couple strainer bags and getting a large wine press - but you haven't provided us much information.

I also see what you're saying about the large tank with a bottom manway, I knew you guys used a crazy amount of fruit in your meads which is why I was curious as to how you got the mead off of the fruit.

We simply transfer the liquid off the primary fermentation using a good pump and the racking port (see Letina for examples of the tanks I'm talking about). Some solid material transfers along with the liquid. Most of it is caught using the pump over cart with griddle with or without straining bags, although some small seeds and sediments may also be transferred. You can see a picture of the general process with strainer bag here. (Sidebar: many people may not remember, but the Feds were shut down for some time 3 years ago when our license was being reviewed, so we contracted out for the first batch of Ginger mead). After another month or two, we transfer the mead off the sediments in secondary (into a tertiary tank), again by using the racking port and racking arm. It's not easy work - but it's not super complicated, either. No filtering is involved, so a gentle pump and patience is required.

Beyond all that I've written and linked to, I'm not sure how I can better answer your questions on Talkbeer. Are you in Michigan? Maybe you'd like to come out for a tour: [email protected] to set that up. Otherwise, I could refer you to many of our friends and colleagues in the craft industry making world-class fruited beer - they may be able to answer your questions in more detail. :D
 
You've answered my question very thouroughly! Sorry for the general nature and not explaining enough. I'm in the process of opening a brewery and we will focus on a lot of barrel and foeder fermented wild ales that will incorporate a lot of fruit. I know from experincehow difficult fruit can be to work with and I'm on the hunt for equipment that will help reduce the stress of that.

I'm in Ohio, I haven't made it up to Ferndale but hope to in the near future. If I can I will make it a point to drop you a line and bring you a few tasty beverages to try.

Thanks again for the depth of answer you provided.
 
You've answered my question very thouroughly! Sorry for the general nature and not explaining enough. I'm in the process of opening a brewery and we will focus on a lot of barrel and foeder fermented wild ales that will incorporate a lot of fruit. I know from experincehow difficult fruit can be to work with and I'm on the hunt for equipment that will help reduce the stress of that.

I'm in Ohio, I haven't made it up to Ferndale but hope to in the near future. If I can I will make it a point to drop you a line
and bring you a few tasty beverages to try.

Thanks again for the depth of answer you provided.

I'm sure you've done it already, but Michael Tonsmiere and Cory King could be really great resources for you. Cory and Karen are probably putting out the best fruited sours I've had in recent years. Cheers, man! Looking forward to trying your beer.
 
For sure, I have some valuable friends at respected breweries. Just figured I'd open up a little dialouge with you as well, this is a great thread. You guys are putting out some of the best drinks in the world.

Again I apologize for being vague in my process. It's a lot to get into and I was working and typing in my phone.
 
Any chance this lasts until after Christmas? I'll be staying in Narbor over the holidays and could definitely make it to Ferndale...
 
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