Saison, the blank canvas of brewing

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TipsySaint

TipsySaint

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So i'm staring to do some research on how saisons have classically been brewed as well as how they are currently commercially brewed. These bad boys go all over the place!

It seems that they hinge around two very special items, yeast and spices!

So i'm thinking of trying out a few different combos of yeast.

A clean french saison yeast, and then maybe a french saison with some bottle dregs and some Brett C for flavoring.

I was thinking for spices some pink pepper, maybe a touch of salt, some orange zest and maybe a touch of ginger....

Since there are so many different ways to give this type of beer that "something special" I was wondering, what do you all do?

Do you have a house yeast blend, do you a some sort of crazy special ingredient?
 
I'm drinking a saison right now that I brewed about 1.5 months ago. I used Wyeast 3711. I get a nice peppery flavor from it and it's getting even better as it ages. When I first bottled it, I was extremely disappointed in it's flavor. Very boring. Now, it's coming along nicely and I would say it's very good. I would recommend the yeast.
 
Check out the book "Farmhouse Ales". The book's divided into a section on Bieres de Garde, and Saison. And it goes into the history and the different interpretations.

The one thing a Saison should not be is clean. And spices should be a background note, not a key one. If you do your job right with the yeast, you shouldn't need any spices at all.

My house recipe won me a gold medal last year. Recipe is in the dropdown. Preferred formula is predominantly Pilsner malt (maybe 70%), a little bit of Munich malt (10%), a little bit of Aromatic malt (5%), both for a little extra malt depth, a touch of Carapils for head retention, and then the remainder simple sugar. I'm partial to using a pale candi syrup (I use the Candi Syrup Inc Simplicity syrup as it provides some cool floral honeylike flavor in addition to very high fermentability). And add the sugar post-fermentation, and mash low, to keep the thing as dry as possible. As far as I'm concerned, if a Saison finishes higher than 1.008, it's finishing way to high, and 1.002-1.004 is the ideal.

My favorite of the style is Saison Dupont, so I use that as a benchmark. I keep mine quite pale (it's maybe 5 SRM).

I use a combination of Styrian Goldings and Strisselspalt in my house one, but I use Hallertauer, Tettenanger, Spalt, Saaz, or really anything noble type in others.

And then I always use the Dupont strain (Wyeast 3724 or WLP565). I start in the high 60s, and then ramp up high. And I mean high. I keep a pack of 3711 French Saison on hand in case the main yeast craps out (which its known to do, but at the temp I take it it's never been a problem), and if I don't need it, I then do a very small Petite Saison (primarily Pils malt, all malt, and OG of maybe 1.035) as a refreshing lawnmower beer and use it. But I wouldn't recommend the 3711 as a primary strain for antyhing else, since it's just too clean for the style despite being a super-attenuator.

I don't personally do a mixed fermentation with mine, but a lot of folks make some good stuff using Brett and bugs in these things, and that's certainly a traditional character (ignore when JZ says that Saison shouldn't be sour- traditionally it was indeed a fairly sour beer, and that was expected and desired).
 
The yeast provides plenty of spice in a saison IMHO. The above is great advice. I agree, the 3724 is worth the wait, much more character than the other French strain.

I have a ding pils and saaz saison fermenting now with 3726. Samples are smelling and tasting very nice as well.
 
So I've heard that the dupont strain can knock out and then kick back in, I was thinking adding a few bugs might be quite helpful, and then you are waiting 6 months anyhow. IMHO this should be a sour (ish) type of beer. I found a ton of good info in the new book by the mad fermentationist (forget his name), the book is Sour Beers. From what I understand the spices should just be a way to compliment or amplify the yeast/bug flavors. I'd like to just make the beer and then perhaps add spices as needed in the secondary. Is there any issue with doing that? Most directions i've seen say to add them during the boil, but since i'm playing in a new sandbox i'm not sure exactly what to put in.....
 
Twinkeelfool said:
No issues but with a funky saison I doubt you'll taste much spice, unless you add so much it's out of balance.
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This. Make a light, highly fermentable wort and let the yeast take the lead. Ferment at at a moderately high temp. A litte bit of characterful malt (ie aromatic, caravienne, wheat) is nice but keep to low percentage. Get a feel for what the style and yeast will give you before you add spices. I rarely add spices to anything (save for witbier), because if you aren't very careful, you'll just get a beer with overwhelming spice character and thats it.

Unless you really like spiced beers, I wouldn't do it in a saison (or a tripel, but thats another rant...). Your restraint will reward you.
 
How about cucumber as a spice/hop derivative? Leave the peel on for some added bitterness and just a light flavor....
 
I just brew a hoppy saison on monday with 3711. I kept it simple. pisner, wheat, munich and caramunich 2. hit it with .25 oz nugget at 60 then 4 oz of amarillo at 5 min. currently holding at 72
 
Just a suggestion- go simple w/the grain bill(a bit of sugar or honey wouldn't be out of place), skip the spices, and let the yeast do its thing; see what happens, and move on from there.
 
I am leaning towards a 10 gal brew with 5 gal going to 3711 and 5 gal going to american farmhouse blend.....tasting and adding dregs/spices as desired. Zoonose, Orval dregs huh? interesting....
 
I really don't like to add much, if anything, for spices in my saisions. I really prefer to make the yeast to the work. Occasionally I'll add a touch of coriander or certain peppercorns, but very small amounts.

My go to saison yeast is 3726. It is kind of hard to find since it is a seasonal yeast, but it is well worth the search if you can find it. You have to really ramp up the temperature to get it to dry out (85+), but if you have good temperature control it is my favorite saison yeast so far (have tried Belle, 3724, 3711/3724 combo, and 3711... 3711 is my least favorite).

Speaking of the yeast bay, I am trying out their Wallonian Farmhouse currently and early tastings are very tasty.
 
I love making saisons. It's far and away my best beer. Qhrumphf gave some great advice up there. A lot of that information is the same taht I would have given, so I won't duplicate. What I will say is this:

Don't be afraid to mix it up with your grain bill. Want to add wheat? Go for it. Spelt? Go for it. Oats, rye, millet? Absolutely. That's the great thing about saison, do whatever you want with your grist and you probably still won't be out of style. For my house recipe I got with 70% pilsner, 7% wheat, 7% Vienna, and about 15% of plain old white table sugar.

Restaint on spices is important. They shouldn't dominate the profile, you should juuuuust notice them, but not quite be able to place them. That being said, don't be afraid to experiment. Last seasons Fantome Hiver had a wonderful black pepper character that I was trying to emulate in my saison, and I just couldn't quite get it. Then I dry hopped a batch with rose buds/petals and voila, that was it. They lent a fantastic peppery character to the beer. Who would have thought?

I lean towards the funky/sour side on my saisons. Pitch a vial of Brett along with your yeast (maybe some dregs too), give it a few months then bottle it and man, you will get some awesome funk (WLP645 will add a touch of sourness too). White Labs Farmhouse Blend already has Brett in it, so be mindful of that.

Don't be afraid to crank up the temp. I let my last one go with a heat wrap on it, and by the time I checked it, it was at 103F!! It had been for a couple of days. Whoops. Still tasted fantastic. Saison yeast is a different breed.

This is an aside, but I saw it earlier in the thread...be careful with cucumber. I made a Belgain pale ale and "dry cuked" it with three lbs of peeled seeded cukes for 72 hours and it was nasty. Tasted like old/cooked/rotten cucumber. After a year in the bottle, it was almost drinkable. I might try it again, but next time I just might make the beer with cucumber infused water. Who knows.

Anyway, have fun with it. Saison is the best, and you can take it in so many different directions.
 
If I "go full cuke" i'll still with cuke water and be able to do a ratio. thanks for the warning!

So a lot of saisons have around 20IBU, won't that screw with some of the souring organisms or perhaps mess up the beer smell/taste?
 
My saisons consist of 2-row, a little toasted malt, saison yeast I harvested from a bottle of Dupont, and hops in amounts and times that suit my whimsy. I ferment as hot as i can. I don't add spices, fruit, bacteria or brett. I like the earthy complexity the yeast gives, and generally don't give it too much to compete against, although some fruity late-hopping is nice. I guess I like my blank canvas something that just the yeast paints upon.

There's nothing wrong with adding any of the things I leave out, but when you do, it matters less and less what yeast you used to start with. Since Saison is a style defined by the yeast, I think adding any of those things makes it less of a Saison, although not necessarily less of a beer.
 
So a lot of saisons have around 20IBU, won't that screw with some of the souring organisms or perhaps mess up the beer smell/taste?
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Not at all. I usually hop my saisons to about 28 IBU, they funk up and get tart with no trouble whatsoever.
 
TipsySaint said:
How about cucumber as a spice/hop derivative? Leave the peel on for some added bitterness and just a light flavor....
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So, I contemplated making a hibiscus wit not that long ago, but I didn't because....I didn;t want the beer to be pink (yeah, that's right...). But, I was curious how it would have come out, so I put a little hibiscus into a french coffee press and poured my finished wit (which was very good) into it, let it sit for 5 minutes, and strained it into a glass. I would try this method with your finished beer so that you get to try your idea without potentially ruining a batch. Cucumber really doesn't hold up to time, it gets a slimy funky rotting flavor.
 
I make lot of Saisons here in Fla. because the ambient temp here is perfect for the yeast. I like to cool the wort down to about 65, pitch yeast and hold it in the 60's for a day then let it go where it wants. My house ambient is 78-80, so it works really well. I like 3711 for spicier versions and 3725 (Biere De Garde) for more subtle saisions. Spice lightly, use mostly pilsner malt with a little specialty to make it interesting. Hop no more than 30 ibus. I never make the same one twice, always try something new, such a great style.

:mug:
 
dchmela said:
I make lot of Saisons here in Fla. because the ambient temp here is perfect for the yeast. I like to cool the wort down to about 65, pitch yeast and hold it in the 60's for a day then let it go where it wants. My house ambient is 78-80, so it works really well. I like 3711 for spicier versions and 3725 (Biere De Garde) for more subtle saisions. Spice lightly, use mostly pilsner malt with a little specialty to make it interesting. Hop no more than 30 ibus. I never make the same one twice, always try something new, such a great style.

:mug:
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so when you say 3711 for spicier versions, you mean you are adding spices or the yeast is contributing those notes?
 
I've been making Saisons recently using the Yeast Bay Saison/Brett blend. They are fantastic. I don't add any spices or adjuncts to them, just let the yeast do it's thing. It's lightly spicy, very fruity, and has a mild earthy funk. Very tasty!
 
TipsySaint said:
so when you say 3711 for spicier versions, you mean you are adding spices or the yeast is contributing those notes?
Click to expand...

I always get a lot of pepper from 3711, so I try to use that to my advantage in designing the saison. So if I am using ingredients that will blend well with pepper notes, I use the 3711. Maybe I have rye in the grist or I went crazy and bought a bunch of stuff at a spice shop.

Sometimes I just want a cleaner Saison, so I go with the 3725 and usually just noble hops. I am a sucker for Belgian ales and Saaz hops, my favorite combo.
 
dchmela said:
I always get a lot of pepper from 3711, so I try to use that to my advantage in designing the saison. So if I am using ingredients that will blend well with pepper notes, I use the 3711. Maybe I have rye in the grist or I went crazy and bought a bunch of stuff at a spice shop.

Sometimes I just want a cleaner Saison, so I go with the 3725 and usually just noble hops. I am a sucker for Belgian ales and Saaz hops, my favorite combo.
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god yes... saaz or ekg for me. I could literally be content with those just those hops for saison. The thing I love about saision is how it responds to subtle brewing techniques, being as 'clean' as the canvas is. Case in point, I got some wlp670 back earlier this year and have brewed 6 batches with it now. The first was totally bretted out and tapered on down from there. The older I let them sit the brettier they get. The quicker I drink them the cleaner they are. And it's just all over the place with a given grain bill. I've dryhopped, partial sourmashed, oaked, pils'd, 2-row'd, wheat'd, crystal'd, high temp ferment, low temp ferment... i mean.. this thing may become the house yeast here. Why fight the geography? Temps irrespective, every one of them impresses..
 
Kee said:
+1 on Orval dregs. It went into the bottling bucket with the priming sugar, something I took from Brew Like a Monk. In less than 3 months after bottling the brett is coming through.
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not worried about bottle bombs since the brett can ferment things the regular yeast can't?
 
My current house saison yeast is a blend of dupont yeast, brett drie, and crooked stave surette dregs. Its pretty awesome. I can turn a saison out in a couple weeks if I'm kegging and want a bit cleaner beer, or let it age for a few months if I want more sour/funky.
 
TipsySaint said:
not worried about bottle bombs since the brett can ferment things the regular yeast can't?
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I don't carb to the maximum, I only use Belgian bottles, and just to be sure I open bottles periodically, instead of putting these away for long term storage.

Great question though. I bottle under the assumption that brett could add an additional volume of carbonation over a long period of time, if someone has a definitive answer for this please chime in.
 
If you want to use spices use the 3711 yeast as it is fairly clean and will let the spices stand out, I just did a rosemary and Sage saison that turned out spectacular, the key with spices it to go LIGHT I'm talking whatever you think is light scale it back from there. I used less than a tenth of an ounce of spices and they still came through but not at all overpowering as you still want the yeast character to punch through
 
I don't carb to the maximum, I only use Belgian bottles, and just to be sure I open bottles periodically, instead of putting these away for long term storage.

Great question though. I bottle under the assumption that brett could add an additional volume of carbonation over a long period of time, if someone has a definitive answer for this please chime in.
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I can only speak to my experience, but I bottle in normal bombers or 12 oz'ers, and prime to 3.0 vols. If the Brett is eating anything in there, it's not adding a significant amount of carbonation. I've never had so much as a gusher. But a couple of things:

1) I don't think I've aged one over 2 years. Brett is a slow worker. Maybe if I let one sit longer it might be a problem.
2) My saisons are drrrrryyyyy. The last one I bottled was at .999, and they're never higher than 1.003. Perhaps there's a correlation because...
3) Brett only super attenuates in the presence of bugs. We all know it can eat sugars that Sacch can't, but if there's not a lot of sugar in there to begin with, maybe it just doesn't add a lot of CO2.
 
I just keg my batches. I personally like to toy around with yeast variations but have found that Brett in anywhere to 5-15% quantities of the total yeast count result in wonderful tasting saisons. I wouldn't ever brew one without them again.
 
Yes. I've already commented about that blend in this thread. It has been producing fantastic fruity, earthy, mildly funky saisons for me. I brewed another this past week and will let this one go for at least 6 months and see what happens. I have been letting them age for around 3 months previously, but I think they could dry out a little more.
 
I'm sorry masonsjax i missed that. I'm waiting for it come back in stock rather than the sour saison. I want to try the wallonia and the brett mix.... Super pumped!
 
I brewed another this past week and will let this one go for at least 6 months and see what happens. I have been letting them age for around 3 months previously, but I think they could dry out a little more.
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Every time I've done that, I've been a little disappointed with the results. Again, anecdotal, but when I age a saison for 3 months and bottle, it's awesome. When I've let it go 6 months and bottle I've never got the funk that I'm looking for. I've read that the Brett behaves differently under pressure, so maybe bottling it makes it kick out the funk.
 
Brewed up a saison two weeks ago using 8 pounds 2 row, 3 pounds of rye, .5 pounds victory, wilamette at 60 and 8 oz. of whole leaf sorachi ace at flameout.....smells and tastes incredible. fermented with 3711, my all-time favorite yeast.
 
Got the yeast bay saison brett and the wallionia and i'm going to try a split batch next week!
 
Rootski said:
I'm drinking a saison right now that I brewed about 1.5 months ago. I used Wyeast 3711. I get a nice peppery flavor from it and it's getting even better as it ages. When I first bottled it, I was extremely disappointed in it's flavor. Very boring. Now, it's coming along nicely and I would say it's very good. I would recommend the yeast.
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I also brewed a saison with 3711 a couple months ago. I hopped it with 1.5oz of Motueka hops (described as lemon, lime, tropical) over the last 10/5/0 min. It was a 3 gallon batch. The inital flavor was disappointing if you thought you would get a dupont flavor, or super earthy.... it was more like a nice Belgian Pale Ale flavor. After a few weeks the hops really melded with the malts to give a nice juicy tart/fruit/lemony character. Didn't have spice or funk of saisons we see now days but some nice mild phenols and a GREAT texture for a 1.002 FG and 7.1% beer.
 

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