Safety: heat stick vs. E-kettle

[week0019]

I've noticed that pretty much all threads on heat sticks seem to come with a warning about electrical safety. However no one seems to be too concerned with installing a heating element right into their kettle and firing it up. You don't typically see warnings in e-kettle threads.

Is there any reason an E-kettle seems to be viewed as safer (basing this only on my comments above about warnings in threads) than a heat stick? Seems to me they would both require some caution and thought to be used safely.

I don't see a significant difference electrically. Is there?

 

[kenh]

I've noticed that pretty much all threads on heat sticks seem to come with a warning about electrical safety. However no one seems to be too concerned with installing a heating element right into their kettle and firing it up. You don't typically see warnings in e-kettle threads.

Is there any reason an E-kettle seems to be viewed as safer (basing this only on my comments above about warnings in threads) than a heat stick? Seems to me they would both require some caution and thought to be used safely.

I don't see a significant difference electrically. Is there?

It's easy to forget and lift (or flip) your plugged-in heat stick out of your water. Ever seen a plug-in electric charcoal starter at work? You'd have one of those X10 with a 5500 watt heat stick.

At least a mounted element stays in the bottom of your pot if you accidentally uncover it!

 

[augiedoggy]

I've noticed that pretty much all threads on heat sticks seem to come with a warning about electrical safety. However no one seems to be too concerned with installing a heating element right into their kettle and firing it up. You don't typically see warnings in e-kettle threads.

Is there any reason an E-kettle seems to be viewed as safer (basing this only on my comments above about warnings in threads) than a heat stick? Seems to me they would both require some caution and thought to be used safely.

I don't see a significant difference electrically. Is there?

well the "E-kettle is permenantly grounded and should be on a gfci circuit (and usually is). So should a heat stick but the honest truth is since they are a non dedicated device thats easy to buy and throw in the pot. they are more often used when either cost or lazyness come into play (NOT ALWAYS) but in more cases than not the people using them tend to also go through less effort to make sure the power source is gfci protected.... also the e-kettle should have all the electrical connections sealed at the pot so things like a boilover isnt as dangerous and it might be in a makshift heat stick (Depends on how well its made)
That being said there are plenty of applications for heat sticks that are exceptions to the general stereotypes above for in more cases than not I think many would honestly agree that someone who has taken the time , money and effort to build an e-kettle may be -upon completion of it more aware of any safety concerns and may have better planned to avoid them than someone who orders a newfangled heatstick online of at the local brewshow and sticks it in their gas setup they are familiar with for additonal heat...
I would certainly consider either and by no means am I calling someone lazy or poor who uses one... just that I believe statistically that the majority of lazy people would use a heatstick over building an ekettle. money was a huge concern for my build and I recycled using components I had whenever possible but that being said I used a new spa panel and 220v line I ran just for this setup instead of plugging into an old three wire dryer outlet as many heat stick users may do for the same reasons they went with the stick over the kettle... Sorry if I'm repeating myself I just dont know how to make my point while explaining that I dont mean to offend anyone and that I'm not referring to everyone.

 

[dmcman73]

I'm building an all electric brew stand and I see a lot of people referring to a Spa Panel. I would like to say this, most Spa Panels have a 50-60 Amp GFCI breaker in it. If you are going to use that you need to make sure that the wire can support 50-60 Amps. The breaker is not there to protect the device, it is there to protect the wiring. The GFCI portion of the breaker is there to protect the device and more importantly, the user.

10 Guage wire = 30 Amps Max
8 Guage wire = 40 Amps Max
6 Guage wire = 60 Amps Max

Please match your Breakers to what type of wire you will be using. If you use a 50 Amp breaker on a 10AWG or 8AWG wire, you're asking for trouble.

Also, some people have stated that they have a 50 AMP spa panel in the line using 10AWG wire but at the breaker box, behind the spa panel, they have a 30 AMP breaker. In theory the 50 AMP spa panel will provide the GFCI protection and the 30 AMP breaker in the breaker box down the line will provide the protection for the wire. This is "OK" BUT I would always do a home run, do it once, do it right. Saving a few bucks is not worth burning your house down. Besides, 30 AMP GFCI breaker can be found for about $80. Run a direct run wire from the Outlet to the breaker panel with GFCI.

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

I thought a little bit about going the heat stick route. There were two main reasons I ended up ruling it out. The first was that it didn't seem like I was really saving any time or money building a heat stick vs installing in a kettle, especially since I went with Brewhardware solder on triclover and enclosure. If I want to use my kettle on a burner I can just put on a triclover blank and I'm good to go. Also both need GCFI protection and (depending on your system) a controller, so no savings there either. The second reason is that with a kettle mounted element there's only one failure point where the element base seals in the enclosure. Depending on how it's built a heat stick could have several joints which could be points of failure, especially if you're relying on Teflon taped pipe threads.

Anyway just my $0.02. I'm sure many folks happily use heat sticks without incident, and I can see it make sense if all you have is a small kitchen stove top or something similar. But it wasn't for me.

 

[CUrchin]

I don't have either,so perhaps I should not comment, but...

I question the grounding of a heat stick. It would seem that you could have a stray current thru the kettle that would not trigger the GFCI because it does not share a ground. How is this addressed?

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm building an all electric brew stand and I see a lot of people referring to a Spa Panel. I would like to say this, most Spa Panels have a 50-60 Amp GFCI breaker in it. If you are going to use that you need to make sure that the wire can support 50-60 Amps. The breaker is not there to protect the device, it is there to protect the wiring. The GFCI portion of the breaker is there to protect the device and more importantly, the user.

10 Guage wire = 30 Amps Max
8 Guage wire = 40 Amps Max
6 Guage wire = 60 Amps Max

Please match your Breakers to what type of wire you will be using. If you use a 50 Amp breaker on a 10AWG or 8AWG wire, you're asking for trouble.

Also, some people have stated that they have a 50 AMP spa panel in the line using 10AWG wire but at the breaker box, behind the spa panel, they have a 30 AMP breaker. In theory the 50 AMP spa panel will provide the GFCI protection and the 30 AMP breaker in the breaker box down the line will provide the protection for the wire. This is "OK" BUT I would always do a home run, do it once, do it right. Saving a few bucks is not worth burning your house down. Besides, 30 AMP GFCI breaker can be found for about $80. Run a direct run wire from the Outlet to the breaker panel with GFCI.

the spa panel is $60.... the 30 amp gfci is usually 90-$100. then I would need another electrical box if I want a master kill switch that nearby the control panel...I can safetly use a 30a panel in the breaker and a spa panel near the brewery and have a convenient kill switch this way. thats what I and many do...its not "wrong" at all just done in an economical way and the gfci still does its job safely its best to have the gfci breaker near the load... thats why a spa requires one near the spa in my area...(at least thats what the inspector told me)
I have no need for a 100ft 50a line run through my house into a spare bedroom where I do my brewing... 30a is much easier to run and all I need. (more than enough actually) not to mention the 6/4 is very difficult to run. I did it for my hot tub.

 

[jeffmeh]

I'm building an all electric brew stand and I see a lot of people referring to a Spa Panel. I would like to say this, most Spa Panels have a 50-60 Amp GFCI breaker in it. If you are going to use that you need to make sure that the wire can support 50-60 Amps. The breaker is not there to protect the device, it is there to protect the wiring. The GFCI portion of the breaker is there to protect the device and more importantly, the user.

10 Guage wire = 30 Amps Max
8 Guage wire = 40 Amps Max
6 Guage wire = 60 Amps Max

Please match your Breakers to what type of wire you will be using. If you use a 50 Amp breaker on a 10AWG or 8AWG wire, you're asking for trouble.

Also, some people have stated that they have a 50 AMP spa panel in the line using 10AWG wire but at the breaker box, behind the spa panel, they have a 30 AMP breaker. In theory the 50 AMP spa panel will provide the GFCI protection and the 30 AMP breaker in the breaker box down the line will provide the protection for the wire. This is "OK" BUT I would always do a home run, do it once, do it right. Saving a few bucks is not worth burning your house down. Besides, 30 AMP GFCI breaker can be found for about $80. Run a direct run wire from the Outlet to the breaker panel with GFCI.

I don't see how the "home run" really provides more safety than the through the spa panel configuration. Additionally, the spa panel gives one a portable GFCI.

The only potential safety issue I can see with a 30a breaker in the main panel, with 10 awg running to and from a 50a GFCI spa panel to a 30a brewery control panel, is if someone mistakenly takes the spa panel and uses it on a circuit with a 50a main breaker. That's pretty easily solved by taking a black permanent marker and writing "30 AMP ONLY - NOT WIRED FOR 50 AMP" on the spa panel. I wouldn't sweat it.

 

[processhead]

I don't have either,so perhaps I should not comment, but...

I question the grounding of a heat stick. It would seem that you could have a stray current thru the kettle that would not trigger the GFCI because it does not share a ground. How is this addressed?

This is a valid point. The only way to address this is to ground the kettle with a conductor back to the panel ground.

Without grounding the kettle, a breakdown of insulation in a heat steak can energize the kettle, posing a potential hazard if the GFCI is faulty.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm building an all electric brew stand and I see a lot of people referring to a Spa Panel. I would like to say this, most Spa Panels have a 50-60 Amp GFCI breaker in it. If you are going to use that you need to make sure that the wire can support 50-60 Amps. The breaker is not there to protect the device, it is there to protect the wiring. The GFCI portion of the breaker is there to protect the device and more importantly, the user.

10 Guage wire = 30 Amps Max
8 Guage wire = 40 Amps Max
6 Guage wire = 60 Amps Max

Please match your Breakers to what type of wire you will be using. If you use a 50 Amp breaker on a 10AWG or 8AWG wire, you're asking for trouble.

Also, some people have stated that they have a 50 AMP spa panel in the line using 10AWG wire but at the breaker box, behind the spa panel, they have a 30 AMP breaker. In theory the 50 AMP spa panel will provide the GFCI protection and the 30 AMP breaker in the breaker box down the line will provide the protection for the wire. This is "OK" BUT I would always do a home run, do it once, do it right. Saving a few bucks is not worth burning your house down. Besides, 30 AMP GFCI breaker can be found for about $80. Run a direct run wire from the Outlet to the breaker panel with GFCI.

The breaker that protects the wire is upstream. The spa panel is simply used as a half price inline GFCI. It just so happens to be a 50amp breaker also and it should never trip due to overcurrent. That would be taken care of by the $12 normal 30a breaker in the main panel.

 

[dmcman73]

the spa panel is $60.... the 30 amp gfci is usually 90-$100. then I would need another electrical box if I want a master kill switch that nearby the control panel...I can safetly use a 30a panel in the breaker and a spa panel near the brewery and have a convenient kill switch this way. thats what I and many do...its not "wrong" at all just done in an economical way and the gfci still does its job safely its best to have the gfci breaker near the load... thats why a spa requires one near the spa in my area...(at least thats what the inspector told me)
I have no need for a 100ft 50a line run through my house into a spare bedroom where I do my brewing... 30a is much easier to run and all I need. (more than enough actually) not to mention the 6/4 is very difficult to run. I did it for my hot tub.

I didn't say what you and others have done is wrong, in fact nowhere in my original post do I say that it's wrong. The only thing I state that is wrong is mismatching the breaker to the load a wire can handle that is at the end of line.

You only run the Gauge that you need but at the end of the line, the breaker HAS to be rated for the max load that wire can handle, that's all I am saying. I've seen way to many people throw a 50AMP breaker on a 10/3 line that only supports 30AMPS which is a HUGE problem. A lot of homeowners think that the breaker is to protect the device they are plugging into the circuit and when they upgrade say an electric stove that requires 50 AMPS, they pull out the 30 or 40 amp breaker, leave the 10/3 wire that's there and just snap in a 50 AMP breaker.

If you have a 50 AMP breaker GFCI inline with a 30 AMP then it's fine. I only stated that I prefer home run connections for high current/voltage applications, sorry if you misunderstood.

I just don't want people burning down their house from an electric fire. There should never be a "cost savings" when it comes to electric or gas, just my two cents.

30 amp GFCI Breaker, $76.48: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000VYHU44/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

60 AMP non-fused all weather disconnect switch, $13.94: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-60...d-Case-Switch-Type-NEMA-3R-DPB222RP/100193214

 

[week0019]

Thanks for the feedback. Makes sense that sometimes, but NOT always, people would be prone to putting less planning into a heat stick rather than an e-kettle just do to the heat stick project seeming less involved. My reasons for leaning towards a heat stick was:
1. Just a small boost in addition to my gas stove meaning one 110V GFIC outlet could handle the 1000W or so I’d need.
2. Avoiding permanently mounted heating elements that may not interact nicely with my immersion chiller or vegetable strainer I use to protect the bottom of my BIAB bag.

Thanks!