Roeselare Reuse / Sour Saison Questions

[dirtygreek]

OK, I'm about to brew a sour, but I have a few options and would like some advice. I have the ingredients for a Saison and an Oud Bruin. Originally, the saison was going to be fermented with Wyeast 3724, but now I'm also ready to brew a sour, and the Oud Bruin was going to be fermented with Roeselare.

I know that second runs of Roeselare will be more sour more quickly, however, and I'd like the Oud Bruin to be pretty sour, and if that happens a little sooner, even better. I do plan to be patient, though.

So, what I'm considering is starting the Saison first, since I only want it to be slightly tart and also don't mind waiting longer for it. Then I could transfer it to secondary after a while and dump the Oud Bruin on the Roeselare cake. I'm also planning to add some different commercial dregs to this (Petrus, at the very least).

Does this seem like a decent plan? If so, I'm also wondering if I should use the 3724 in the Saison. I'm not sure what kind of character it would impart into the Oud Bruin.

Any advice is welcome, thanks!

 

[tugbucket]

Would there be any validity to brewing the Saison first, separating out a gallon. Fermenting that gallon with Roeselare and the rest with 3724. Let those ride for a bit. Then brew the Oud Bruin, rack the gallon volume back into the Saison and the use the Roeselare trub to ferment the Oud Bruin.

If you let it go for say three months, I would think you would have plenty of active yeast for the Oud Bruin left and more bugs in the trub to sour it up.

That would also give you plenty of time to let the 3724 eat away and raise the temp to get all the Saison-i-ness out of the yeast.

 

[dirtygreek]

Hmm, interesting. It requires having some extra fermenters, but I'm not completely against it. Do you think that if I did just ferment the saison with 3724 and then with roeselare, then dropped the oud bruin on that cake with the mixture of the two, I'd get too much saison character in the oud bruin?

Am I better off just brewing them separately, then maybe inoculating the saison with some of the roeselare dregs after I rack the oud bruin to secondary? Thanks!

 

[tugbucket]

Am I better off just brewing them separately, then maybe inoculating the saison with some of the roeselare dregs after I rack the oud bruin to secondary?

Sounds fine to me. From all I've read from others about the sour levels:

2nd Gen Roeselare > pithcing Roeselare in primary > pitching Roeselare in secondary

So yeah, you should, to get what you asked about a slight sour Saison but a sour Oud Bruin, brew them separately. Pitch 3724 in the Saison and Roeselare in the primary for the Oud Bruin. When you're ready to move the Oud Bruin, dump some of that funk in the Saison. Then brew something else and dump on your Roeselare cake

I don't have a lot of experience with all this yet. We recently (with in the last 4 months) bottled our first two batches of sours. One was a blonde that was 05 in the primary and then Roeselare in the secondary. Sat for 13~ months. It's a little sweet on the palate but finishes with a nice sour kick.

The day we bottled it, we brewed up a Saison. Racked on to the Roeselare cake and pitched a Farmhouse Ale yeast right on top.

So We won't know what 2nd gen Roeselare will taste like until next Summer.

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

Sounds fine to me. From all I've read from others about the sour levels:

2nd Gen Roeselare > pithcing Roeselare in primary > pitching Roeselare in secondary

Nicely put!

So yeah, you should, to get what you asked about a slight sour Saison but a sour Oud Bruin, brew them separately. Pitch 3724 in the Saison and Roeselare in the primary for the Oud Bruin. When you're ready to move the Oud Bruin, dump some of that funk in the Saison. Then brew something else and dump on your Roeselare cake

I was just going to say the same thing! Yeah, bit of the Oud Bruin added to the Saison in secondary, harvest the yeast/LAB from the Oud Bruin and brew another one. For me 2nd gen Roeselare has soured more quickly but seems a bit one dimensional. I'm guessing the lacto grows proportionally more quickly. Incidentally, I didn't get much in the way of dregs when I harvested from a bottle of Petrus. Think there's some question as to whether they've started filtering.

 

[dirtygreek]

Great advice, thanks. Sad to hear about Petrus, I love that stuff. I've searched my local bottle shops and found some other good sours that are on the lists of useful dregs, but not as many as I expected.

 

[sweetcell]

Hmm, interesting. It requires having some extra fermenters, but I'm not completely against it. Do you think that if I did just ferment the saison with 3724 and then with roeselare, then dropped the oud bruin on that cake with the mixture of the two, I'd get too much saison character in the oud bruin?

if you ferment out the oud bruin with something else first, like Belgian Ardennes (supposedly the sacc that Wyeast uses in Roeselare), then by the time you put the beer on the saison cake there won't be anything left for the saison yeast to eat. you'll get little to no activity out of them, hence no saison flavor.

 

[dirtygreek]

Probably, but I've seen most people say that fermenting out before adding the Roeselare means less or slower sour character.

 

[ChugachBrewing]

I've done Roselare generation s 1-10 and 2-3 were the best. Wash and pitch into primary. Never rack off beer then pitch wort directly on top without cleaning fermentor and yeast.

 

[BrasseurGeorges]

I've done Roselare generation s 1-10 and 2-3 were the best.

Now that's interesting, I've never taken it past 3 though I guess you could say the critters live on in a sour culture I maintain. How would you describe the change in subsequent generations?

 

[ChugachBrewing]

Now that's interesting, I've never taken it past 3 though I guess you could say the critters live on in a sour culture I maintain. How would you describe the change in subsequent generations?

Poorer past 4 gen, the last was the worst. My friend did some of them. Much more intense brettanomyces funky flavors, not as much sour as I would have expected. They also soured very quickly. I think gen 6 was a stout, and was uniquely tasty.