Roeselare Question Wyeast 3763

[ted464]

Made an Oud Bruin which started out at 1.052. I pitched a vial of WLP550 and gave it a few day head start. I pitched the Roeselare four days later, with a gravity reading of 1.014. I plan on aging it one year - my question is was the gravity of 1.014 enough "fuel" for the Roeselare, or do I need to increase the gravity, maybe with some boiled/cooled candi sugar? This is my first sour, so any suggestions?

I will be fermenting in my basement, with average temps probably being in the low 60s for the majority of the year.

 

[TheCanisDirus]

When i do delayed strain additions i'll sometimes add a few oz of sugar (table, candy, dextrose) depending on how much strain 1 has eaten. You'd be fine either way.

 

[ted464]

Great, thanks... leaning toward adding some candi


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[brewbama]

I did a Rosalare a while back and used beet sugar.

I also added EC 1118 prior to kegging.


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[ted464]

Would there be a way calculate approximate alcohol content after adding a second dose of sugar at this point?


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[40watt]

Seems to me it would be better to add starch than sugar. Brett and bacteria can metabolize starch and protein.
Brett will transform the esters from the ale yeast into new flavors. That along with the influence of the bacteria is were the character you are wanting will come from.
If you add sugar, that will likely just be consumed by your ale yeast.

 

[PAjwPhilly]

I brew with Roeselare microbes by themselves in primary. But Brett will show up by changing the existing esters/acids and such into new compounds.

If you add more sugar, you give the enormous amount of WLP550 more sugar to chew on... Brett is at a lower concentration and is a slow starter, it will have no chance to get at enough sugar to make a difference. Remember that Brett by itself isn't all that funky. It's when it has other esters/acids that the "Brett character" comes into play.

I say let it ride. In the future you can pitch 1 smack pack of Roeselare into 5 gallons and not oxygenate. Or add some bottle dregs. Bottle dreg microbes are so much more aggressive in souring or funking a beer up.

 

[blizzard]

I brew with Roeselare microbes by themselves in primary. But Brett will show up by changing the existing esters/acids and such into new compounds.

If you add more sugar, you give the enormous amount of WLP550 more sugar to chew on... Brett is at a lower concentration and is a slow starter, it will have no chance to get at enough sugar to make a difference. Remember that Brett by itself isn't all that funky. It's when it has other esters/acids that the "Brett character" comes into play.

I say let it ride. In the future you can pitch 1 smack pack of Roeselare into 5 gallons and not oxygenate. Or add some bottle dregs. Bottle dreg microbes are so much more aggressive in souring or funking a beer up.

I agree with this. I would wait for the brett and bacteria to become more established. Let it ride for a few months and then taste it. If the gravity has dropped and you want more character (and you probably will on the first pitch of Roselare) then add the sugar. I would stick with table sugar; I don't think you'll get any nuance from candi sugar. Otherwise, as others have said, you could add more starch so the yeast don't eat it all.

 

[ted464]

I brew with Roeselare microbes by themselves in primary. But Brett will show up by changing the existing esters/acids and such into new compounds.



If you add more sugar, you give the enormous amount of WLP550 more sugar to chew on... Brett is at a lower concentration and is a slow starter, it will have no chance to get at enough sugar to make a difference. Remember that Brett by itself isn't all that funky. It's when it has other esters/acids that the "Brett character" comes into play.



I say let it ride. In the future you can pitch 1 smack pack of Roeselare into 5 gallons and not oxygenate. Or add some bottle dregs. Bottle dreg microbes are so much more aggressive in souring or funking a beer up.

Thanks, I will probably just let it ride out then


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[ted464]

I agree with this. I would wait for the brett and bacteria to become more established. Let it ride for a few months and then taste it. If the gravity has dropped and you want more character (and you probably will on the first pitch of Roselare) then add the sugar. I would stick with table sugar; I don't think you'll get any nuance from candi sugar. Otherwise, as others have said, you could add more starch so the yeast don't eat it all.

So when this is done can I just pitch right onto the existing cake? Will I need more ale yeast or just throw a new brew on what's there and let it go?



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[highgravitybacon]

Made an Oud Bruin which started out at 1.052. I pitched a vial of WLP550 and gave it a few day head start. I pitched the Roeselare four days later, with a gravity reading of 1.014. I plan on aging it one year - my question is was the gravity of 1.014 enough "fuel" for the Roeselare, or do I need to increase the gravity, maybe with some boiled/cooled candi sugar? This is my first sour, so any suggestions?

I will be fermenting in my basement, with average temps probably being in the low 60s for the majority of the year.

Yes, it's fine. Next time you can skip adding anything except a pack of Roeselare. Don't fuss with it by adding anything. Just leave it. You're more likely to make a big pile of **** by playing with it than letting nature do its thing.

In a month or two, rack it off the less into a clean carboy, seal it up and wait for a year. Technically you made a flanders, not an oud bruin by pitching the Roeselare.

 

[PAjwPhilly]

So when this is done can I just pitch right onto the existing cake? Will I need more ale yeast or just throw a new brew on what's there and let it go?

Roeselare has Sacc in it as well. So it has the ale yeast you mention. Roeselare Blend is in the proportions to make the "desired flavor components... in West Flanders." By pitching your WLP550 Belgian yeast you greatly increased the Sacc yeast contribution. Tilting the flavor profile. My guess is it will have less of a sour/ funk then a pure Roeselare pitch.

Now about repitching... Sacc has a terminal growth curve, meaning only so many will exist naturally in your wort/beer. From what I understand the bacteria are not as affected by this and that is why you can re-pitch and get a more sour beer. Brett is oxidative, and probably is less affected as well. So your next beer should be more sour/ funky.

You can try to repitch and save the $ on another Roeselare smackpack. Or just by another one. Never make a starter for Roeselare and don't aerate it either.

 

[blizzard]

So when this is done can I just pitch right onto the existing cake? Will I need more ale yeast or just throw a new brew on what's there and let it go?



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IMO, it is better on the second pitch, but I wouldn't use the whole cake. In the past I have used about 1/3 of a package of dry us-05 and a healthy dose of second generation slurry harvested from a previous batch. It was more sour than the first batch and took less time to complete.

 

[PAjwPhilly]

IMO, it is better on the second pitch, but I wouldn't use the whole cake. In the past I have used about 1/3 of a package of dry us-05 and a healthy dose of second generation slurry harvested from a previous batch. It was more sour than the first batch and took less time to complete.

Why are you even pitching Sacc? It is in Roeselare Blend... you would get a more sour/funky beer leaving it out. If you dont believe me contact Wyeast:

https://www.wyeastlab.com/contactus.cfm

I have 15 gallons of lambic in secondary right now. 1st-3rd generation Roeselare pitches, all straight up... all with commercial dregs (very aggressive in sour/funk compared to White Labs/ Wyeast).

The yeast will hit an end to their growth curve. They will grow until that. By re-pitching more Sacc and less of the Roeselare, you are again cutting back the sour/funk. Sacc grows so much faster than the other microbes. Yes, your Roeselare slurry will be higher in other microbes since they had time to grow. So yes the beer will be more sour than the previous batch, but you are still tilting everything towards Sacc.

 

[blizzard]

Why are you even pitching Sacc? It is in Roeselare Blend... you would get a more sour/funky beer leaving it out. If you dont believe me contact Wyeast:

https://www.wyeastlab.com/contactus.cfm

I have 15 gallons of lambic in secondary right now. 1st-3rd generation Roeselare pitches, all straight up... all with commercial dregs (very aggressive in sour/funk compared to White Labs/ Wyeast). I have pictures of the pellicles here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/pellicle-photo-collection-174033/index136.html

P.S. my pellicles are weak, they are reforming in secondary..

I'm not disputing that there is sacc in the blend, I just don't think it is very viable in the cake after sitting in beer for a year or two (I generally don't rack my sours). I didn't add sacc on the first pitch (and had a really slow start) but did on susbsequent pitches.

 

[PAjwPhilly]

I'm not disputing that there is sacc in the blend, I just don't think it is very viable in the cake after sitting in beer for a year or two (I generally don't rack my sours). I didn't add sacc on the first pitch (and had a really slow start) but did on susbsequent pitches.

Ah. If you think about the Solera brewing process.... I would think you could just pitch.

My method is more of a Horney tank technique.

 

[ted464]

IMO, it is better on the second pitch, but I wouldn't use the whole cake. In the past I have used about 1/3 of a package of dry us-05 and a healthy dose of second generation slurry harvested from a previous batch. It was more sour than the first batch and took less time to complete.

Good, the more sour the better, I'm guessing based on what I did my first batch isn't going to be a funky as I wanted.



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[ted464]

Roeselare has Sacc in it as well. So it has the ale yeast you mention. Roeselare Blend is in the proportions to make the "desired flavor components... in West Flanders." By pitching your WLP550 Belgian yeast you greatly increased the Sacc yeast contribution. Tilting the flavor profile. My guess is it will have less of a sour/ funk then a pure Roeselare pitch.

Now about repitching... Sacc has a terminal growth curve, meaning only so many will exist naturally in your wort/beer. From what I understand the bacteria are not as affected by this and that is why you can re-pitch and get a more sour beer. Brett is oxidative, and probably is less affected as well. So your next beer should be more sour/ funky.

You can try to repitch and save the $ on another Roeselare smackpack. Or just by another one. Never make a starter for Roeselare and don't aerate it either.

Would what I have already benefit from some Jolly Pumpkin dregs, or is it too late for that?



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[blizzard]

Would what I have already benefit from some Jolly Pumpkin dregs, or is it too late for that?



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JP dregs wouldn't hurt. Those bugs are beastly. I don't think of them as very funky though.

 

[PAjwPhilly]

JP dregs wouldn't hurt. Those bugs are beastly. I don't think of them as very funky though.

When I pulled my 1st generation Roeselare lambic out of primary, it tasted like a weak JP beer. So I say they go well with the Roeselare blend.

Like blizzard said, they are not very funky... And also they are not very sour. It is a good mix of both (a little of each). And they will definitely change the profile of your beer. Commercial dregs seem to always be more aggressive flavor-wise.

And where I live they are very easy to find.

 

[ted464]

When I pulled my 1st generation Roeselare lambic out of primary, it tasted like a weak JP beer. So I say they go well with the Roeselare blend.

Like blizzard said, they are not very funky... And also they are not very sour. It is a good mix of both (a little of each). And they will definitely change the profile of your beer. Commercial dregs seem to always be more aggressive flavor-wise.

And where I live they are very easy to find.

Ok thanks, I'll throw some JP in the mix.


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